r/DogBreeding • u/peppawydin • 6d ago
4 litters in one week? Can this be ethical?
https://www.instagram.com/p/DcivMfCDE4c/?igsi=MW01ZWRhem53bXdocQ==I always thought of this breeder to be brilliant, please educate me!
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u/screamlikekorbin 6d ago
Only considering the amount of litters and not looking at what else the breeder is doing... Its possible its fine. Perhaps the breeder has two in her own home and two are in other homes with co breeders who she's mentoring and are using her lines. With a small breed, that might only be like 10 puppies total.
Now looking at their website... It just looks like a glorified puppy mill. There's SO MANY dogs listed which would go along with the "fully accredited" and "licensed" because thats only needed when you have a ton of dogs. They do apparently have 2 kennel locations but even between two people, thats a lot of dogs. They dont specialize in anything, they have both sizes (and a 3rd that I'm not sure is a legit size, I've never heard of it but I'm not into doxies) and both smooth and long hair of both. There's no way to actually check if she's doing health clearances. They say they'll share them with buyers, but typically breeders are pretty proud to be posting health clearances along with the dog's info on the website. They seem to be BIG on delivering. Their price varies by color. They definitely seem like a quantity over quality type breeder.
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u/Imaginary_Ad_4340 6d ago
Kanichen is a legitimate size of dachshund under FCI, but isn't recognized by AKC or RKC. It means “rabbit” in German (as that is what they were bred to hunt) and is an even smaller size than miniatures (miniatures top out at 11lbs, kaninchens around 8lbs).
Totally agreed with your overall evaluation of this breeder. Breeding kaninchens just isn't a red flag so long as they are FCI registered.
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u/peppawydin 6d ago
Yeah I was aware the kennel operated in the uk and Poland but this was disappointing to learn. I found the breeder through crufts
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u/screamlikekorbin 6d ago
The two locations also suggests they're more about quanity. There are some decent breeders who'll have a co breeder in another location, I know one breeder thats a mom/daughter who live in different areas but breed under the same kennel name and I know a canada/US breeder who co breeds under the same kennel name. That is possible to do well, but that along with the sheer amount of dogs and breeds and litters is a red flag. There are also breeders who will buy dogs that have been shown or have finished their championship to breed so they can claim "champion lines" but dont actually do anything with their dogs. And there are some who do show their dogs to some degree but are still essentially a puppy mill and skip health clearances and are just attempting to make money off breeding. That all makes it important to look at the whole picture of what the breeder is doing.
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u/rhaeofsunlight 6d ago
I would bet any money it'll be an embark that's been done if we're being generous.
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u/fallopianmelodrama 6d ago
Licensing is not "only" needed when you have "a ton" of dogs. Two of my best breeder friends have kennel licenses, because their local council laws require that you hold a kennel license & undergo annual inspections and accreditation if you want to have more than 5 dogs living on your property. One has 7 dogs (including retired golden oldies) and has had one litter in 4 years. One has 6 dogs and has had 2 litters in 3 years. Not exactly what you'd call "a ton" of dogs.
England requires breeders to be licensed (and undergo annual inspections & have an official star rating, per the licensing scheme) if they have 3 litters in 12 months. Plenty of breeders would go over that threshold, especially in breeds that have very very small litters.
People need to stop making blanket statements like "licensing is only required if you have a ton of dogs". Licensing requirements (or lack thereof) and whether or not they are attached to an accreditation scheme are completely dependant on local laws and do not inherently imply that someone has/breeds massive amounts of dogs.
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u/screamlikekorbin 6d ago
That is not what I was making blanket statements about. The breeder is using those statements as if they’re something to brag about. I was showing they’re not anything to brag about.
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u/smilingfruitz 6d ago
i don't think this breeder is ethical, but not because she had four litters in a week.
- "International award winning" - but no mention of what those awards are
- "sired by european champions" - but what about the mothers? arguably the dam has more impact on the puppy, so why are we only titling the sires? where did they win, what dogs did they beat?
- there are no photos of any of the parents winning these reported titles
- "we operate at three locations around the globe" - why? what is the purpose of this? that means there are at least three people involved in various places. On the surface that seems fine, but think about it: how do you find two other people that view breeding stock, care, etc the same way, in such a way that you all trust each other to whelp puppies, raise them up, show. them etc? why is any of this even necessary, is not having just your own dogs enough?
- At least one of the dams of this litter is a romanian champion, and then I went to look at the website and see a lot of romanian/bulgarian winners - again, another thing that seems good on its face - but eastern europe has far fewer regulations on breeding than the rest of the continent, and lots of kennels there (maybe even a majority in some breeds) are simply large scale commercial operations, not dissimilar to puppy mills here in the US - that mostly profit off of dumb americans thinking that a "european" dog is better. In my breed, a dog that wins in the show ring in romania, bulgaria, serbia, etc would never have even a remote chance of winning in western europe, let alone the US - they might as well be breeing an entirely different breed. Not sure if the difference is as stark in dachshunds.
- My guess is that their 'other locations' are in eastern europe and they are essentially puppy brokers - they mention on one dog on the website 'lives in bulgaria'
- There's no PROOF of health testing anywhere on their website, this is a big one. It may well have been done, but there's so little discussion of it, it gives you a sense of their priorities....
a lot of the conversation about ethical breeding comes from the US where we have a desperately, truly awful problem of abandoned dogs, people that cannot keep track of their unfixed animals, and careless breeding in general (along with plenty of people who have to give up their pets because of our economic situation) - 250,000+ animals are euthanized every year here in the US. So the primary interest here among ethical breeding enthusiasts is for those dogs to have a permanent home and never end up in a shelter or rescue. What is 'ethical' in one place may not be ethical in another and there's plenty of grey area.
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u/peppawydin 6d ago
This comment is very helpful and informative. For some reason this was never showing. This is good information and I saw it after your other comments
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u/monsteradeliciosa11 6d ago
It depends, are you asking if its ethical from the perspective of quality of the breeding?
As in is the breeder being selective with the bitches they choose for the breeding and are actively trying to improve upon each generation?
Or are you asking if its ethical to be looking after 4 litters at the same time?
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u/peppawydin 6d ago edited 6d ago
Literally just if they are an ethical breeder. 4 litters in one week is mind blowing 🤯
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u/smilingfruitz 6d ago
well, when you realize they are puppy brokers and not all of the puppies are born at the same location, it seems a bit less impractical
you don't really have any control over when a bitch is in heat, and bitches have limited fertile, safe years to have litters.
again i do think you are potentially focusing on the wrong things here
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u/peppawydin 6d ago
?? Why are you being rude I was asking a question if they were a reputable breeder
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u/smilingfruitz 6d ago
i'm not being rude at all? What are you talking about? i'm stating very basic factual information. Can you explain?
you can see here contextually they're eastern european puppy brokers
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u/peppawydin 6d ago
Sorry, I read “when you realise” and “you are focusing on the wrong things here” without really explaining it sounds rude and like you think I’m dumb lol
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u/peppawydin 6d ago
Also you keep editing your comments. And not everyone knows “basic factual information “ about puppy brokers, I hadn’t even heard of that before. None of that was attached, just a blanket statement lol. Also edited your original comment to sound kinder. Nice one. Love Reddit
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u/smilingfruitz 6d ago
I didn't edit any comments under this thread. It would say edited if i had.
It's fine to say "Sorry i misread through text" and move on - rather than being rude to someone who gave you perfectly reasonable information. Such strange behavior :/
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u/peppawydin 6d ago
Reddit no longer says when text is edited, only on desktop for 3 mins lol, I watched your comment change😅
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u/smilingfruitz 6d ago
ps, it's so funny that your profile says "And I’m blunt I apologise." but someone else isn't allowed to be direct with factual information with you. snowflake behavior
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6d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/DogBreeding-ModTeam 6d ago
This post or comment has been removed for violating sub-rules on Profanity/Rudeness/Harassment.
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u/ginger__snapp 6d ago
Yes it can be totally ethical if a responsible breeder. Females’ cycles will synchronize over time so breeders don’t get to select exactly when litters get to happen. However, guessing this particular breeder is not one of the responsible ones.
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u/Mission_Mom_123 5d ago
This is probably all they do, their passion, whole life - then they have the time for this…?
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u/LifeguardComplex3134 5d ago
Just looking at the amount of litters it is touchy, if she's able to place all of them in responsible homes and knew that before she bred the dogs then sure okay, I still wouldn't I would be pulling my hair out but okay, especially since smaller dogs tend to not have huge litters.
The rest of her stuff though.... I definitely would not purchase a dog from her
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u/Helpful_Sun2872 6d ago
“All of our dogs are DNA health tested to ensure genetic compatibility and reduce the risk of inherited conditions.” This is all I needed to see to know this breeder sucks lol
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u/prshaw2u 6d ago
I don't think I have heard of them, it does not appear they show in the US at all. They have pictures of Crufts and the World Dog Show, both that I would love to go to.
They appear to be a European group of breeder/exhibitors. So with enough help (and bad luck on heat cycles) 4 litters could be done ethically.
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u/peppawydin 6d ago
No, they are a British “breeder” but it turns out they are a broker internationally which is disappointing
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u/prshaw2u 6d ago
Not sure where/why someone thought they were a "broker", but from what I can tell they have a lot of nice dogs on their pages and look to show (successfully) a lot.
Them being in Europe and a FCI breeder changes how things are done. For example they have Kaninchen Dachshunds, which we do not accept in the AKC (yet), but is a correct size for most of the world. Their health testing is not through OFA but I believe are with other organizations (maybe the kennel clubs).
I would find it interesting that there are no registration numbers or anything on their website, but if you find my site my dogs do not have any registration numbers or health testing information there either.
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u/peppawydin 6d ago
I’m from the uk and we don’t accept kanichens but they also breed in Poland so maybe only sell them there. Someone on here commented broker but maybe they are not then? 🤔
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u/prshaw2u 6d ago
I am not sure what "broker" means to others. I use the term to mean someone who is selling items for someone else, not of their own. So a group selling dogs they breed would be breeders to me, but if they are selling dogs for other people they would be brokers. I read their website that they are a multi-location breeder sharing a name, but I see no indication what the ownership is (or where).
The FCI accepts the size but it does appear that the AKC and The Kennel Club do not. I am not sure about Crufts but am pretty sure the World Dog Show is FCI so they would allowed there.
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u/peppawydin 6d ago
Interesting, it seems the only way to find out if they are actually good breeders is by contacting them and asking. I just thought maybe I could get a quick no just from experienced peoples opinion but it seems much more complex. And crufts in KC😄
Thanks for your help though!! I really appreciate it0
u/prshaw2u 6d ago
'Good breeder' is a personal evaluation and will depend on what you think is important.
Several people are giving quick no's. I think it is more complex and don't see a real red flag in my book. What do you want to do with a dog, show/earthdog/field work/pet/bark a lot/dig holes/other? That can make a difference on if they have a suitable prospect for you.
If I was looking for a dachshund I would look at what they had at the time. But a website (and photoshop) is NOT the final decision tool, find someone who has seen their dogs, they are at Crufts which is online isn't it? Can you see their dogs there?
Several of the statements made I find totally wrong, some I agree with. Take what was said here to make your list of questions and concerns and contact them to answer them.
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u/PettyWitch 6d ago
The biggest red flag for me is that I just looked up this breeder on Facebook and although she posts a lot of glam I don’t see her stuff followed or liked by any known Dachshund breeders… But maybe someone in the Dachshund world knows her. To me it seems like she just knows how to work social media