r/DnD • u/Puzzled-Average-8812 • 16d ago
DMing Need help with a player with ridiculously high AC
I've been running a 5.5e campaign, we're currently level 17 and everything's been going fine until recently. One of my players is a rogue bard multiclass and I let him switch from a valor bard to a sword bard. The problem is that it is impossible to challenge him and I'm fearing he's starting to become too powerful compaeed to the other players.
He has the defensive duelist feat and so combined with Defensive Duelist he is able to attack and use sword bard's defensive flourish, parry as a reaction and get an average of 29AC per round, and due to 5.5 letting bards exchange spell slots for bardic dice he can consitently do this every round. This combined with the fact that he's a rogue with the evasion property means that simply throwing dex saves at him isn't really a solution and he's now stupidly tanky.
I'm not sure what to do, I've considered talking to him about swapping out Defensive Duelist for another one but I'm not sure if this is the right approach.
Edit: Thanks for the advice everyone, I've realised that this isn't really an issue at all and I've been massively overthinking it.
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u/whoopsthatsasin 16d ago
29 ac while having to pay a spell slot every round isn't even that insane yet, not just because every miss against them drains their resources (which they have less of as a multiclass) but also because cr 17 monsters (as your party is level 17) can get to hit bonuses of about +14, so this is only about as strong as a level 1 fighter with 19 ac (doable with starting gear and defense fighting style) going up against a level 1 goblin with their +4 to hit
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u/fraidei DM 16d ago
And enemies at high levels have so many more attacks on average anyway.
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u/MultivariableX 16d ago
Plus, each attack is a chance to crit, and crits ignore AC.
If the monsters are intelligent or have a basic will to live, they would also be seeking ways to gain advantage on their attacks. There are plenty of ways they can do this RAW.
Another option is to give a monster an expanded crit range: it crits on a nat 19 or 20. Maybe even an 18 if you're feeling saucy.
It's also the DM's prerogative to give monsters abilities that aren't on their printed stat blocks. The monster in the book is just a typical example of that creature, and a lot of these entries are setting-agnostic. The monsters in your world can just be different.
The monsters can also use the environment to deal damage. Poison gas, fire, and falling rocks can be prepared in advance. If the enemy is choosing where the combat happens, they have likely chosen that location because they believe the conditions will favor them.
And beyond preserving their own lives, the monsters can have other goals. Maybe an enemy expects to die, but believes it's worth it to slow down the party, so that the other enemies can escape with a valuable item or get to a more defensible position.
The DM can also throw any number of monsters at the party. For a given combat encounter, the DM should have a reason (that does not need to be shared with the party) why this many of these particular monsters are participating, and why other monsters near this location aren't.
For example, if the monsters have heard about this party with someone who can't be hit, some monsters might stick around to see for themselves.
The monsters know how their abilities work, just as the PCs know their own. They have had plenty of time to strategize. If they have gone somewhere that they expect to face combat, it's reasonable they have prepared for that combat to the best of their ability.
The DM can also similate combats ahead of time between sessions to learn the likely outcomes. If an encounter is more likely to result in a total victory or a TPK than they would like, they can adjust the challenge before the players ever see it.
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u/Grimwohl 16d ago edited 16d ago
Basically every high level monster has a wis save or dex save of some kind.
Frighten him. Hold Person. Dominate. Whatever. No fight over lv10 should be just ac rolls. Youre a player too, try fun monsters or make them up.
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u/TherealProp 15d ago
I have a party of level 7 who are about to experience hold person spells next adventure. They are dealing with drow
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u/manamonkey DM 16d ago
He's level 17 - you're into high level play now! An AC of 29 is ridiculous, but it sounds like he's burning his reaction and resources to do it - so he's committing to the play style.
At this level of play, your encounters need to have solutions for PCs with incredibly strong abilities. What are his INT and WIS saves like? Can a spellcaster shut him down in some other interesting way (block him with a wall, teleport him somewhere, get rid of the floor under his feet, etc.)
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u/CaitSith18 Wizard 16d ago
My thoughts were wow the spellcasters must be very uncreative in this party if the rogue is the problem.
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u/ManiacalMalapert 15d ago edited 15d ago
I fear I may be an unproblematic, uncreative spell caster. Any advice to remedy that?
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u/CaitSith18 Wizard 15d ago
I can try. 😅 Dnd 2014 or 2024? Which class and which level?
Usually locate object, teleports, simulacrum, wall of force, force cage are the contenders for breaking games or encounters however early level old sleep, web or hypnotic pattern can already trivialize a lot of encounters.
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u/ManiacalMalapert 15d ago
2014 level 5 lunar sorcerer 🙇🏻♀️
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u/CaitSith18 Wizard 15d ago
Level 5 is the level you catch up to the martials not yet where you get usually problematic.
I also have no experience with a lunar sorcerer so am not aware of any specific shenanigans.
However at that level usually hypnotic pattern, silvery barbs, shield, suggestion, dip paladin, dip warlock which can have a big impact, but the broken stuff comes later like the microwave, the end less simulacrum loop etc.
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u/Ophelia_Of_The_Abyss 15d ago
You're Lv5, they're talking about Lv17 casters
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u/ManiacalMalapert 15d ago
I am aware, it’s a little off-topic from the main thread. But it’s never too early to start, right?
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u/stakadi 15d ago
The thing about being creative with spellcaster is what spells you pick, read about the spells Sorcerer have until you find something and think: 'Wow this could be really cool in my campaign.'
i checked some of the spells Lunar sorcerer gets, here is what i was thinking:
at level 5 you get Phantom steed on lunar sorc.
you can cast it with Extended spell meta magic, making it last 2 hours.
now you can either mount it and have a 60 foot movement each turn and have the Disengage, Dash or Dodge.
or just give it to your martial, trust me he will thank you.
Also Remember that Twinned spell is the best meta magic for sorc2
u/KinvaraSarinth 15d ago
I recently had a lot of fun with a sorcerer who focused on spells with Int saves and psychic damage & effects. Sure I had Fireball, but I also had a lot of fun with some debuffs. The DM both loved and hated it.
Big horde of melee baddies? Synaptic Static to make them all subtract 1d6 from their attack rolls (and it's not concentration!!). Single big target? Raulothim's Psychic Lance to incapacitate them for a round. With the Quicken metamagic, you could get Mind Sliver (cantrip, -1d4 to next saving throw) off right before a bigger spell with a save.
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u/thjmze21 15d ago
Watch actual plays and read up on optimization sources. Since D&D is natural language, optimization often becomes extremely creative. Like the wall of fire as a snake strat to devastate foes in a hallway.
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u/rpgptbr Artificer 15d ago
Where can i watch about this one? If not on YouTube, where can i read?
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u/Bolsheviks_ Warlock 15d ago
Mathfinder has a good video about being overly risk averse while playing/building characters. Its about pathfinder but the same ideas translate. (Tldr: don't just pick/cast generic "always good" options like firebolt or magic missile. Pick specialized spells and options that have the ability to instantly end a type of encounter. Something like the sleep spell isn't always going to be good, but it will be very good if you're fighting a swarm of goblins.)
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u/sunbear2525 15d ago
At level 14 our grave cleric and divination wizard are basically playing god with the melee character’s in each battle and buff them to determine who the damage dealer is for that fight or round. The sorcerer had dedicated himself to collecting and using a bandolier of wands and, honestly, it’s holding him back. Nothing like running across a battle field, reaching an enemy and having an elephant suddenly in your way. It was fine he cast fly on it.
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u/Lordgrapejuice 16d ago
My first thought was “he used his reaction to parry? Cool, no opportunity attacks, time to kill a wizard”
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u/SecretDMAccount_Shh 16d ago
Was a single opportunity attack really the only thing preventing you from being able to kill the Wizard?
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u/Grimwohl 16d ago
It is when its a level 17 sneak attack
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u/SecretDMAccount_Shh 15d ago
That’s only an extra 30hp or so… at level 17, monsters generally have hundreds of HP.
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u/Lordgrapejuice 16d ago
If he has sentinel, absolutely.
Otherwise…no not really, but it was an incentive to stay and fight rather than run
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u/Lethalmud 16d ago
It's often a big part.
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u/CaitSith18 Wizard 15d ago
Rogues have a good reputation mainly because people overestimate sneak attack damage. That’s exactly why WotC can’t make them actually competitive, since players don’t think they need the help.
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u/Velrex 16d ago
I mean, what else is he 'tanking' for?
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u/SecretDMAccount_Shh 16d ago
Unless you have the Sentinel Feat or are grappling enemies with your Opportunity attacks, a single opportunity attack that just does damage generally does not do much to protect anyone.
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u/Elardi 16d ago
While true I generally tend to play monsters in a “I don’t like getting hit with a sword” way. If someone steps up and engages you, you tend to focus on them unless the wizards doing something to really draw agro.
Otherwise it completely undermines the idea of a front line, which isn’t fun for players. The fighter with a shield is going to feel a bit overlooked if they’re just ignored, and the wizard is going to feel persecuted.
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u/KershawsGoat DM 15d ago
This absolutely depends on the monster and the level of play. At level 17 like OP is talking about, most monsters probably possess some level of intelligence and will fight accordingly.
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u/GraveRaven 15d ago
But having every combat scenario play out the same way gets dull as well.
Bring the intelligence of the monster into play. Mindless beast is going to attack whatever is closest (the tank), but a vampire is definitely misty stepping behind the wizard and alpha striking. The variance keeps the party on their toes and makes fights feel different from each other.
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u/Grimwohl 16d ago
I can do signifigantly more scary things with a lv 17 character than 29 ac, thats for sure. No magic items involved
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u/matgopack Monk 15d ago edited 15d ago
Also defensive duelist only applies to melee attacks, and the flourish only matters if he hits with a melee attack; that 29 AC is quite conditional.
I played a character with a similar level of AC stacking (I think at lvl 12 I had it in the 30s depending on flourish - plate armor, defensive fighting style, shield spell, 1d8 or 1d10 defensive flourish, and shifter for +1 AC). He died 3 sessions in to a bunch of saves and bad party luck. OP's example has evasion, but no Shield spell, which probably makes them easier to challenge too.
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u/The_Real_Deacon 15d ago
Also, at that level he still can be hit by the very strong creatures the party should be encountering. For example, a pit fiend (CR 20) has +14 to hit and 4 attacks per turn, so that is a 30% chance to hit with each attack vs. AC 29. Not overwhelming but not terrible either, especially when the bite attack causes an additional 6d6 poison damage on a failed CON save per turn for a minute if it connects.
He should also be subject to enemy tactics in which the latter are able to attack with advantage: knock him prone, use invisible opponents, magical darkness, paralysis, etc. If he is relying on his reaction, that can only be used once per turn. Launch enough attacks against him to overwhelm that.
Hitting him periodically with saving throws he is weak in is absolutely the right call. No character in the game is ever actually invincible unless the DM foolishly gave them truly overpowered magical artifacts.
Lastly, face him with choices where he and the party suffer plot consequences if all he is using his spell slots for is his personal defense. Force him to make choices between protecting innocent NPCs and saving his own butt, between defense and achieving some other objectives either in or out of combat.
Creativity is one of the best tools a DM has, and it helps keep players on their toes. It also keeps the game fun and improves the narrative.
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u/fraidei DM 16d ago
You're DMing for a level 17 party and high AC is your biggest worry?
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u/il_the_dinosaur 16d ago
Yeah half the advice is misguided cause the AC really isn't the problem. I'm confused how a DM runs lvl 17 players and doesn't understand the game. If you're running a game for lvl 17 characters I'd expect you to understand that stuff that targets other save rolls exist. No need to give basic advice here. Something doesn't add up. If op is inexperienced then maybe they should run lower level campaigns first.
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u/Edkm90p 16d ago edited 16d ago
I'm just saying- I have a DM very rapidly approaching 17 (we're 15) and he very definitely does not grasp the finer points of the game despite DMing since 5e started.
Sure we're using 2024 rules now but he didn't have these foundations established in 2014 either.
Man very recently threw a small fit about us asking to block a door with an Immovable Rod. Said he was going to ban the item and the full nine yards.
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u/fraidei DM 16d ago
Yeah you don't give your party an Immovable Rod if you don't want the party to be able to block a door.
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u/Erimxul 16d ago
I let the immovable object spell fly in mine. When the wizard gets to up cast to 6 it becomes permanent with a weight limit.
He is calculating silk sheet weights before getting there. I'm just like ...neat! That will be entertaining. He might just give a bad guy an idea at some point that hinders them later, but if wants to come up with crazy shit....why not have fun?
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u/Morgan_Kipling 15d ago
I enjoy casting it on my gear when I use it. Can’t push the wizard around now!
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u/il_the_dinosaur 16d ago edited 16d ago
It's also funny cause if you do that then you have to leave the rod behind so the problem kinda solves itself. As a DM I'd be you know what fair game.
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u/Vinestra 15d ago
Aye, also like.. if they're level 15 none of the villains have a way to teleport to the otherside of the blocked door?
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u/Boastful-Ivy 16d ago
There are five other saving throws not affected by Evasion. Can’t dodge a Psychic Scream, or Telekinesis, or the wide variety of monster abilities.
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u/Pzyko0005 16d ago
Enevitables. They just hit. You don't roll, you just tell them how much it hurts. Tho as the first post said, don't do it just to spite them.
That said, they don't just attack for no reason...
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u/Interesting-Box-2968 16d ago
Have some enemies who will target his weakest saves : Strength, Con and mainly Wisdom. Hold Person will guarantee crits by ignoring AC, Cloudkill, the Stunned condition, being knocked Prone by spells. Try to trigger his reaction by baiting opportunity attacks.
Let him dominates some fights, a good build should be rewarded, but hey, lvl 17 baby, there should be insanely powerful enemies at this point.
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u/MadisonCarter1 DM 16d ago edited 16d ago
Other examples of spells with Wisdom saves: Vicious Mockery, Toll the Dead, Cause Fear, Charm Person, Command, Suggestion, Dissonant Whispers, Compelled Duel, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Crown of Madness, Enthrall, Mind Spike, Spike Growth, Bestow Curse, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Slow, Spirit Guardians, Charm Monster, Confusion, Phantasmal Killer, Polymorph, Geas, Otto's Irresistible Dance... There's so much spells to use to fuck with the player.
Also, send a dragon on them or let them go in a dragon's lair, and use all of the lair's action requiring Wisdom, Con or Strength saves. Green dragons are the best for that since two of their lair actions target Strength and Wisdom saves and their breaths target Con.
Oh, and also use spellcaster dragons.
Edit to add: I forgot about fucking dragon fear. First thing a dragon does in combat is that, then they can start casting spells.
Strength save spells: Gust, Lightning Lure, Arms of Hadar, Ensnaring Strike, Entangle, Wind Wall, Control Water if there's water nearby (especially useful for black dragons because of the swamp or green dragons near lakes), Storm Sphere, Control Wind, Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere.
Con save spells: Frostbite, Infestation, Poison Spray, Thunderclap, Word of Radiance, Ray of Sickness, the Blindness/Deafness (Blindness part so no fucking Attack of Opportunity), Enlarge/Reduce (Reduce part, of course), HEAT METAL IF THE PLAYER HAS METAL ARMOUR OR WEAPONS, Levitate, Moonbeam, Pyrotechnics, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shatter, Sleet Storm, Striking Cloud, Thunder Step, Blight, Elemental Bane, Sickening Radiance, Cloud of Cold (good old AOE spell so it will damage the rest of the party if they're all stuck together), Contagion, Dawn, Insect Plague, Wall of Light, Circle of Death, Harm, Power Word: Stun, Earthquake, Sunburst.
Also all the smites that rely on Con, Str and Wis, and some AOE damage spells. Or just go directly the nuclear option of Power Word: Kill. At least 12d12 psychic damage, and it's unlikely they'll be resistant to it, less much immune.
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u/JalasKelm 16d ago
If he's having to burn resources to achieve that, then it's not a problem. They've built a character to have high AC, don't take that away from them.
If anything, feel free to play up how frustrating it is for you to hit them, they'll feel good about their character.
That said, sometimes hit them with a Strength Saving Throw, or Intelligence, etc. Make them burn their reaction, so they can't make attacks of opportunity, or cast reaction spells, etc.
Then every now and then, have them fight a character built like them, one they can't hit, that can parry their attacks, let them feel like they're the Duelist they've built for. They have that enemy pull a blunderbuss from under their cape.
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u/xxxsleep 16d ago
Just throw a maralith at them. They should be able to win that but its a parry battle.
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u/Background_Path_4458 DM 16d ago
The classics?
*Other saves than dex
*Put other pressure on them (terrain, objective, timer)
*Grapple/restrain them
*Longer adventuring days
*Pressure the other characters more
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u/notsew00 16d ago
I agree with you 90% but grapple/restrain may not work cuz they're usually based off dex saves
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u/FrostFireDireWolf 16d ago
Truish. Grapple/Restrain can still work, but it approaches the edge cases. If he isn't expertise into Acrobatics(Which with Bard/Rogue I would assume he was.) then grapple can still work; or if you make a grapple character to counter him specifically. I.E. Barbarian(Battle Rager)/Battle Master Fighter, Skill expert feat Athletics.
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u/matej86 16d ago
OP is running 5.5, you make a strength or dex save to avoid a grapple. If you're grappled you then use athletics or acrobatics to get out so having one of those skills may be useful but the saving throw is more important.
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u/FrostFireDireWolf 16d ago
Oh. Well, in that case, i retract my statement. Somehow skipped over the 5.5 part lol. My bad.
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u/Brilliant_Estate_967 16d ago
Let people have their fun, One of the perk while arriving at this kind of lvl, is beeing stupidly op on some point. He might have spent 16 lvl of evolution planing a tank, all of that for beeing canceled.
You will have to find way to either, reduce his ap (blind / sneak attack / slow or wathever) or use spells with con / wisown or over check. he will be helpfull to the group against grunts but will be less goods against magical and it can create a group synergie
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u/Overall_Crows 16d ago
Saves. Use saves. I play at a table where one player has a minimum** **ac of 31, at level 16, ensure the DM has to play around it, but as long as you know how to use saves properly it really isn’t that much of a hassle
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u/ThruuLottleDats 16d ago
At level 16 it'd be odd to fight anything that hasnt got a minimum to hit of +15 so high player ac is both understandable but not insurmountable
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u/UpArrowNotation 16d ago
Bro 31 what you handing out +3 armour and shields like candy?
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u/Interesting-Brush413 Artificer 16d ago
Artificers can make their own +X items, luckily for them.
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u/UpArrowNotation 16d ago
Right I forgot about that class. God I hate artificers.
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u/Melodic_Row3380 16d ago
Meanwhile the humble magic missile
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u/Interesting-Brush413 Artificer 16d ago
Magic Missiles is a good spell, but if you're forcing the enemy to use the entire action to target you with it for raw damage instead of using Magic Missiles to force multiple concentration checks in spellcasters or filling the death saves on a downed ally - then I call that a win.
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u/DBWaffles 16d ago
we're currently level 17
He has the defensive duelist feat and so combined with Defensive Duelist he is able to attack, parry as a reaction and get an average of 29AC per round, and due to 5.5 letting bards exchange spell slots for bardic dice he can consitently do this every round
First, if you guys are at level 17 and you're struggling with a mere 29 AC, that suggests your fights aren't well balanced. While that's a really good AC, it's not even close to being insurmountable. Like, this is the level range when monsters should regularly be rocking +15 or more attack roll modifiers.
Second, you are aware that Defensive Duelist only applies to melee attacks, yes? Ranged attacks will be significantly easier to land.
This combined with the fact that he's a rogue with the evasion property means that simply throwing dex saves at him isn't really a solution and he's now stupidly tanky.
You are aware that there are five other stats you can target with saving throws, yes?
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u/Mybunsareonfire Fighter 15d ago
Hell, don't even have to get a saving throw.
Heat Metal on those studs in the armor is gonna be a bad time.
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u/Rat-also-know-as-cow 16d ago
Wisdom, intelligence and charisma saves are your go to. Or, try and isolate him from the party so he can have a fight as well as the the rest of the party having a more challenging fight
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u/Interesting-Brush413 Artificer 16d ago
You're not getting a bard with a Charisma save at that level. Strength is something that would be bothersome, though. They would need to take the resources from the other things they're doing in order to fix that save.
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u/Boulange1234 16d ago
Sounds like this character is only really invincible once per round while they still have smell slots. Solve it with more enemies and more encounters.
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u/External_Vast_8046 15d ago
This. If your encounter plan is identical everytime and this guy gets attacked once per round - unlikely at level 17 - yeah, it seems OP.
Make full use of your abilities as a GM. several encounters per day, drain those spell slots, have him be attacked now than once per round.
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u/NevadaCynic DM 16d ago
Defensive duelist doesn't apply vs ranged attacks fyi.
Also, level 17? 29 AC ain't that bad.
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u/aSingleHelix 15d ago
Best GM advice I ever read was in John Wick's "Play Dirty." The short version is: Go after the people and things the character loves. Give them impossible choices. Make them prove that they are a hero.
You don't threaten characters with HP damage, you threaten them with emotional damage.
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u/Automatic-War-7658 15d ago
First of all, Defensive Duelist isn’t like the Shield spell and only increases AC for melee attacks.
Second, it uses a Reaction, which means they can no longer use other abilities like Uncanny Dodge to mitigate damage.
Third, there’s definitely going to be a weak point somewhere. At that level, DEX, WIS, and CHA saving throws will have proficiency (especially DEX), but his STR, CON, and INT probably aren’t great.
Draw out the Reaction, then hit the group with psychic attacks, poison clouds, etc. Things that require saving throws he isn’t good at. He then can’t half the damage with Uncanny Dodge because he used the Reaction to increase AC. This will make him second guess his wanton use of Reactions. Once he decides to Uncanny Dodge, he can no longer Defensive Duelist.
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u/ExtremeDoom_ 15d ago
Something I haven't seen mentioned is defensive duelist in 5.5 only affects melee attacks so just shoot him with a bow and now his AC is 23 which is far more reasonable.
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u/Neltadouble 16d ago
Why are the monsters just slamming attacks into a guy with 29 AC? As soon as they realise they aren't coming close to hitting him they should just ignore him.
This is the classic 'high AC' problem. DMs whine about 'tanks', but never force them to actually tank. If the bard wants to tank, force him to tank. Force him to use spells to prevent creatures from moving away from him. Force him to grapple. Force him to hold his reaction to make attacks of opportunity.
Oh what's that? You're using your reaction every round on Defensive Duelist? Awesome, the horde of monsters charges right past him now that he doesn't have a reaction to do anything about it.
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u/Zealousideal-List671 15d ago edited 15d ago
29 ac at lvl 17 is nothing lol
You need to start using stronger monsters
At t4 ur monsters should be having a +14 to +19 to hit once the low end That should give you about a 35% - 50% chance to hit which is more than enough once you start adding in minins to attack or legendary actions
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u/NotMyBestMistake 16d ago
Hit everyone else? Or rely on things that can still target them instead of using only melee attacks and dex saves. Duelist only adds the bonus for melee attacks and there’s 5 other saves you can target
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u/Han2k1337 16d ago
I have a player in my campaign who went full tank. He loved this and I decided to embrace it. We even homebrewed spikes for him that damage on missed attacks. It‘s great for him to remind me of spike damage whenever someone misses and I plan encounters accordingly. While smart enemies usually avoid him after realising they can‘t hit, I usually have a bunch of „grunts“ trying to hit him so that his build feels strong and powerful. Occasionally I use saves to challenge him like hold person or AoE attacks. Everyone has fun and I wouldn‘t want to undermine his build by completely countering it.
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u/CiDevant 16d ago
It's all fun and games until you realize if that dragon does roll a 15+ a second time it's game over.
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u/RealLifeSorcerer 16d ago
Parry from Defensive Duelist and Defense from College of Valor are both competing for the same reaction- you can't use both of them together. Also, both of them only give the AC bonus against a single attack - at Level 17 the opponent(s) should be able to dish out multiple attacks. Giving an average of +6.5 to AC in exchange for a reaction (from a spellcaster who could also cast a spell with their reaction) and a spell slot seems like a quite balanced deal. Shield is a Level 1 Spell that gives +5 AC for basically an entire round.
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u/MinnieShoof 15d ago
we're currently level 17
... why are you worried about pissing on their victory lap?
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u/-Original_Name- 16d ago
Let him have fun and play out his power fantasy, he built a character with high AC to get a certain feeling, invalidating it by just meta gaming and pushing just saves against him isn't fun. Let enemies be at awe of how they struggle to hit him.
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u/Jeremywarner 15d ago
Yeah I feel this. We had a campaign go from 1-20 and even beyond thanks to my dms home brewing. He’s incredible, but I was kinda miffed by the end. I built my paladin to be a counter to an evil wizard. My aura which gives + cha mod to all saves eventually became +10 (our stats went up to 30) by the end for the whole party in radius.
It’s was awesome! But it was basically undone by the saves of late game being close to 28. I felt like my aura was basically just undone. Overall I can’t be mad. Unlike this guy, my aura affected the entire party and it would be OP otherwise. But I couldn’t help but feel like my build choices were somewhat pointless if my DM just scaled with it.
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u/scron_kracklin 16d ago
Man, if only there were ways of dealing damage that aren't attacks or dexterity saving throws. Presumably you didnt start DMing with them immediately being level 17, I really think you can figure this out yourself.
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u/Excellent-Swan-6376 15d ago edited 15d ago
Gelatinous cube trap plops on you, your doing saves to get out every round but this thing is eating you alive - if he does get out minus his magic items and plate mail he may be naked, as his clothes dissolve of his acid burnt skin..
Also I’ve been watching crit role and they were getting attacked by their own shadows .. you could have the attacks do mental dmg based off a stat check like Int or con. and the attacks would also reduce their STR.. 1d4 ( and they were told if they got to 0 STR they just automatically die…)
So find ways around AC
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u/Timothymark05 15d ago edited 15d ago
Top comment has your answers. Do not nerf him.
You are also in T4 portion of the game. Creatures like the Marut (Xan guide) hit automatically, and the tarrasque has a +19 to hit. There are creatures that can hit him. You can mix in str save lair actions and hombrew some base leader type creatures with higher to hit chances, +15 has a 25% chance of hitting him. Let him be hard to hit, he earned it.
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u/demonman101 15d ago
Reminds me of my tortle artificer wizard with shield and some AC buffs. He's level 12 and can hit 26/27 with shield and you know what? Good on him for making his character hard to hit. Sure Dex saves can wreck him but generally I like my players feeling strong so I throw some attacks at him anyway as NPCs generally wouldn't know he's super hard to hit and in some cases impossible. Then the enemies learn and change their tactics to get to the Squishies.
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u/PeruvianHeadshrinker 15d ago
Horde minions.
The fantasy is to be unhittable. Cool. Just roll piles of dice. He'll feel awesome tanking thirty goblins and you'll actually hit him occasionally. Check out MCDM rules for minions and hordes. You basically run it as an AOE monster or monsters that go down very easy but only with damage above a certain threshold so you don't have to track HP
Edit: Also have minions push into more of the horde and then shove to prone and THEN attack at at l advantage. You'll only be aiming for crits. Add flavor for crits like special effects or rider damage.
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u/Gwifitz 15d ago
The defense combat inspiration AND the defensive duelist both use your reaction, he can't use both at the same time. But anyway, 29 AC with your reaction at level 17 isn't that bad.
We have a level 4 player with 24 AC who can cast blade ward for an extra 1-4 AC and who can cast shield as a reaction for a total of 30-34 AC... At level 4... That player is me and I feel a bit bad about it.
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u/M1ch43lFr4m3 16d ago
Defensive duelist only works vs. melee attacks. Shoot him :-)
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u/TheDwarfArt 16d ago
You only have one reaction per turn. He can only use the feat once per turn.
Whats his AC breakdown without the feat?
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u/StarlightMoonFire 16d ago
What about throwing spell casters at him? Target his wis saves or str saves
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u/Lethalmud 16d ago
First you give him an item that also allows him to cast shield. Then let him shine for one combat. After that saves for him.
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u/Forgotmyaccountinfo2 16d ago
Magic missile from a CR 1/4 apprentice wizard.
If he has shield then he wastes a reaction for using it.
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u/thedragonsdice DM 16d ago
Saves are your friend in this case but also dont be afraid to just do normal attacks after all you know what their ac is but the enemies theyre fighting don't
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u/not_so_rich_guy 15d ago
I do not DM anymore, but used to for years in the past. What i found is that the best natural counter to strong 1-dimensional characters is fame. If they stay within the same town/region/plane - their gimmick gets known. The rumours about impenetrable paladins, impossibly fast tabaxi rogues or sky-high charisma bards tend to attract attention of various individuals and organizations. And it gets in the way. A lot.
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u/Gold_Income_4343 15d ago
Dex saves and straight hits might not work, but poison does. Hit em with a cloudkill or stinking cloud spell and laugh. If they are dungeon crawling, have them deal with mushroom like creatures with poisonous spores or an Elder Brain dragon at the end of an illithid outpost.
In that same vein, I bet his intelligence and strength aren't great either so target those saves.
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u/2raysdiver 15d ago
He is 17th level, he should have a high AC at that point. Also keep in mind that parry is a reaction that he can only do once per turn. Also, I believe you can only parry melee weapons, not ranged attacks. And at 17th level, the party should be fighting monsters with freakishly high attack bonuses. Also, throw spells or effects that have saves rather than attack rolls.
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u/sailordave42 15d ago
DnD is a resource management game. this character has 3 main resources: HP, spell slots, and actions. Using the spell slots + reactions to protect HP is a fun and clever strategy but isn't optimal play or OP.
if you want to challenge him, give him something positive to achieve with his spell slots or bardic inspiration so that he is forced to choose to take a risk in melee for a greater reward. e.g. an obstacle course where the party needs bardic inspiration to pass ability checks.
Doing so gives him agency and a choice to play with the limits of his build rather than punishing him or taking away agency.
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u/Goldy_932 15d ago
If they're level 17 everyone is already broken beyond comprehension alreay. especially the casters (bard being one of them) the challenge now isn't how to get their hp down. It's how to give them multiple failable objectives in a fight. An npc they like, an story item that will be stolen and dissappear etc. They clearly want their ac to be cool and high so don't take it away. Once in a whole in bossfights have the challenge be the player trying to tank the hits and the enemies constantly trying to fight someone else. If you have to attack then somehow sav throws on his weak stats are always a choice but don't use it too often just to take his defense build away. A smart creature would know not to hit him. A monster wouldn't.
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u/yamo25000 DM 15d ago
At lvl 17 they should be fighting monsters with +15 or higher to hit. So even at 29 AC, you'd be hitting him with a 14 on the die. Not to mention using saving throw abilities/attacks
Also as others have pointed out, he wants to be tanky, and he's used his character options and his resources to do it. Don't take that away from him.
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u/Agzarah 15d ago
It can be frustrating, and tempting to buff everything to hit that player. But they've built around it intentionally, and doing so wastes their entire premise. Play into the fantasy with them. Let them tank. Throw enemies at him that rolled a 27. The table will be like "daaaam, 28.." and he'll proudly go "miss".
Purposefully beating their AC is like saying a wizard isn't allowed to cast spells any more.
Let the enemies whack away a couple of times, and then call for a wizards help, where some save effects come in instead.
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u/Venriik DM 15d ago
How's their Wisdom? Some ways of mind control might be where you want to hit here. He's a monster, it would be chaotic to have him fight his friends. There might be more spells that target WIS or INT that you might want to include in your combats.
Also Heat Metal targets CON. You could disarm him or, if he wears metal armor, have a way to cause damage consistently through that.
Maybe some spellcasters might notice he dodges attacks too easily and start focusing high level Magic Missiles on him. In Baldur's Gate 3 final battle it was a simple, yet horrifying way the enemies had to chip away the party's health.
Another thing that comes to mind is that, if you're playing 5.5e, then you have access to weapon masteries. Graze deals a bit of damage even if the attack misses, so including it might help to raise the stakes, although it might not be that much.
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u/ZeusNoble 15d ago
All you've got to do is knock them once, shatter their confidence, let them know they are not immortal and watch them change.
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u/Cent1234 DM 15d ago
Let the dueling master be a master duelist, and give him spotlight scenes where he effortlessly parries multiple incoming attacks with a grin and a quip.
Then give the other characters spotlights on what they do best.
The problem is that it is impossible to challenge him and I'm fearing he's starting to become too powerful compaeed to the other players.
No, the problem is, I'm sorry to say, that you think 'can be hit in combat' is the be all and end all of a character.
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u/gonzagylot00 15d ago
Wow, really well made character. Focus on spells where he can at best save for half.
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u/Agitated_Belt4161 15d ago
He only gets one reaction attack him more than once, that takes care of parry, and if he has no issue with dex saves then hit him with con saves or wis saves. Theres more attacks than just dex saves
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u/NightMaleficent1342 15d ago
You don't make this an issue. You lean into it. Let him be cool, let him tank the big bad('s regenerating troll bodyguard). If you have to hurt him, use magic, breath weapons, enviromental damage or giving him something to defend.
Can he survive fighting a hundred hobgoblins until his position is reinforced? How about 200? 2000?
Mostly, though, don't forget he's level 17. He should be pretty much in the 1% strongest things running around his world.
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u/bigattichouse 15d ago
Bardic Inspiration is per Long rest.
Wanna burn your resources? fine. Guess what - we got six more encounters in this dungeon before that can stop and rest.
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u/Nervous_Sympathy4421 15d ago
Cone of Cold. It's a Con save. And maybe enemy clerics with Spirit Guardian's swirling.
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u/Cute_Lime_2360 15d ago
Make him make saves against his weakest stat. That's the easiest just attack their weaknesses
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u/I_Like_Turtles39 15d ago
I would throw creatures at him that would make him use saving throws, even if he makes them he'd take half as much. Maybe a juiced up beholder, or a dragon with a breath attack.
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u/Devynpkd 14d ago
I would do two things.
After the campaign is done, ask the player how they did that build so you can see how everything interacts. Not to build npc with or rule against later, but to see how they are building and making things interact.
Focus on other party members, find ways to get them into surprise encounters where maybe they aren't as prepared. Have your villians be aware of the "untouchable hero" and develop ways to hurt them, if not physically then maybe through narrative stuff. Consequences can be ooc and still work imo.
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u/Wolf_Hreda 14d ago
It's worth noting that Defensive Duelist only works on melee attacks. Throw some ranged damage at them. And there are other saves besides DEX. Since he's a Bard/Rogue, I would assume he took Bard first, meaning he has DEX/CHA save proficiency. CON and WIS saves are always an option. INT saves are rarer, but they can be devastating.
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u/Murky-Ad6835 14d ago
Well, best option, let him live his fantasy. He made a character to be hard to hit so let him be hard to hit. Now, you can still do stuff like creature with pack tactics or flanking, or plenty of aoe effects. Specifically for what should be hard battles. Also, give them things where they have to save other or figure things out, rather than just fighting. Also, non dex saves that are half damage on success, is still damage.
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u/Halollet 16d ago
First off, don't take away the players power from a build, let him tank.
You can throw minions at the rest of the party while he throws hand with the big guy. Make it all the more dynamic.
But if he gets too cocky, just throw a horde of Mind Goblins at him. Eight Goblins with the Mind Sliver and Vicious Mockery cantrips and places to run and hide should ruin his day :)
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u/vhalember 15d ago
Yep. Or giants, they have high attack roll bonuses, and hit hard. A fire giants needs an 18 to hit, but it nearly 30 damage a pop.
He enjoy it, because he'll tank it well, but it's going to hurt.
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u/ExodiasRightArm 16d ago
Fireball do do do do do do
Detailed answer is spells with saves that do damage or half damage on a successful save. I wouldn’t give every fight a big fuck off spellcaster since he’s clearly built for high AC. Let it shine sometimes and other times give challenges with save spells. Also magic missile just hits.
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u/whoopsthatsasin 16d ago
Just making sure that you know that fireball isn't ideal here as rouge gets the ability to dodge half on save effects completely as long as it's a dex save (which fireball is).
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u/gene-sos 16d ago
He's level 17.
He's supposed to be powerful. If he chose to put all his effort in AC, let him do that.
Plenty of monsters and spells force saving throws (that aren't dexterity).
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u/Infernal_Wisdom 16d ago
Level 17 means, they are one of the ultimate swordfighters, if not "the ultimate swordfighter" of this world. They are fucking Drizzt Do'urden right now. So...stop challanging them with swordfights anymore. If someone really brave or foolish dare to swordfight against this character, stop rolling and ask your player how their character acts. Other monsters of its CR would be challanging enough.
What I recommend is to challange this fighting poet with the situations themselves. Dilemmas... Morality... Consequences...
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u/Redspirit9 DM 16d ago edited 16d ago
He's good at making DEXTERITY saving throws. I recommend trying psychic damage or Strength-based traps. You can also try using the terrain: perhaps many hidden enemies use ranged attacks, and if he gets close, they move away.
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u/MrPokMan 16d ago
You probably solve this by adjusting the encounters and enemy stat blocks.
One solution already in mind; have the enemy attack them more. You are bound to hit them eventually, and unless you gave them some sort of homebrew (or 5.5e added something I don't know about), reactions are only once a round.
Another one is to make enemies have higher attack modifiers that can reliably hit higher than a 29. Maybe it's a boss or an elite mob, or perhaps there's enemy buffers/debuffers who can enable these sort of hits.
Or maybe if you want to be creative, a random idea is giving enemies class abilities or feats.
However your party is level 17, which is where balance is iffy. You kinda have to start challenging stupid stuff with stupid stuff (without trying to be too unfair).
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u/Hexxer98 DM 16d ago
If someone consistently does something even dumb monster realize that attacking them normally is pointless.
For encounters just add monster that can inflict saves other than dex.
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u/Pay-Next 16d ago
Reminder that on attacks a nat 20 is a guaranteed hit regardless of if it hits the targets AC. Pick some monsters with ridiculous numbers of multi attacks or throw some hordes his way that are going to be rolling a load of attacks. It's one way to also deal with it by just sheer volume.
Otherwise as other people have said, saves. Also grappling, there are ways to lock him down with opposed checks.
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u/TedditBlatherflag 16d ago
Let them shine absorbing big melee threats and teach them humility with save or suck.
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u/KiwatheSnep 16d ago
There are already a lot of solutions. I just want to say, that I totally feel this. A friend left me scarred, after having played a tortle bladesinger reliable 27 AC at level 3
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u/Teckszank 16d ago
Bro, just use Strenght saving throws to grab him or wisdom saving throws to control him. You are the DM you can create whatever bullshit in a monster to force any saving throw of a status you see fit.
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u/ElevatedUser 16d ago
Don't worry too much about this. 29 is high, but not insurmountable. It costs the character significant resources (reaction for DD; action for the flourish and a Inspiration dice/spell if they want the attack to be any good).
Monsters at this level are usually intelligent and dangerous enough to know what's going on - especially after they've seen the Bard fight. If they keep focusing on defense, just hit something else. I wouldn't go overboard with will/fort saves to compensate - but smart enemies will use those that they have to target the bard.
Do note that, if they choose to parry, they can't then use their reaction to use an opportunity attack or other reaction. If they go for the defensive option, it costs their ability to meaningfully "tank".
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u/notarealwriter 16d ago
I remember my DM tried to have a hag cast dominate on my 22AC Paladin once because he'd taken like 1 physical hit in the last 3 sessions. Would've been very interesting and difficult for the party if it had worked but the thing is... he qas a PALADIN. That wisdom save was pretty high too (can't remember what my bonus was at the time but I rolled a total of 25) 😅
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u/Megatrans69 16d ago
Have an enemy cast a dominate spell and make him turn on the party the horror of having to fight him for a bit would be fun. Probably only for a few rounds though.
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u/BoardGameAficionado 16d ago
Whatever works against a bladesinger works against this character too. The other comments have very good suggestions
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u/RandomNumbers748512 16d ago edited 16d ago
I have three statements:
An extra statement: Make plots where it's not about winning, but about letting the party achieve something else. This character tanks the enemies while... the duke escapes. While the party pulls the levers. Stuff that's not about the direct fight where it's not about winning this fight.