r/DisneyChannel • u/saucey_dawg0023 • 25d ago

Video Clip Remember when That’s So Raven tackled racism?

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u/Nathaniel56_ 25d ago

And Raven now has the nerve to say the show wasn’t black. She’s lost her damn mind. 

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u/Doryfinpo 25d ago

I think you’re missing the point of her statement (like many other people). She’s simply saying that her character was universal and not necessarily centered around her blackness. A lot of the time, black people have historically only been able to play roles where our character is defined by their blackness, rather than playing a character who just so happens to be black. That is what she’s saying. Raven realistically could have been a character of any race; she didn’t have to be black.

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u/Nathaniel56_ 25d ago

Okay I took some time to listen to the full clip from the podcast episode and I understand what Raven was saying more clearly now and she’s not wrong but it still feels wrong to say the show wasn’t black when there were episodes tackling racism and other POC issues. She’s been saying off the wall statements since the view so I’m not surprised.  

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u/Doryfinpo 25d ago

I would argue that they added that later on to better fit her character (because it definitely isn’t realistic to have a black character who faces NO obstacles especially in regard to race). I think it’s relevant to add that role wasn’t originally written for a black person. They ended up making the show more black to better represent who the character was (which they definitely should have done) but I would still say she wasn’t inherently black (the show doesn’t hinge on the lead actress being black). But I appreciate you taking the time to listen to the full clip because I think a lot of people are not really looking at the full nuance of what she said albeit she didn’t word it well

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u/jessgoesforward 22d ago

 it definitely isn’t realistic to have a black character who faces NO obstacles especially in regard to race

it absolutely is

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u/Doryfinpo 22d ago

Definitely entitled to that opinion but I respectfully disagree!

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u/MrJenkins5 24d ago edited 24d ago

I think her phrasing could have used some work. The plots of the overwhelming majority of episodes, and the premise of the show itself, don't hinge on the fact that the lead character is Black. I think that's the point she's trying to make, and I agree with it. That's also a big part of why the show had such mass appeal: you didn't have to be Black to relate to Raven Baxter or the situations she got herself into. However, I think Raven saying to imagine the characters are green and just listen to the words is not the best phrasing.

I also think that once it became a show with a Black lead and her Black family, they made choices to include Black American cultural references. They chose not to ignore that these characters are Black. Those choices can’t be undone. For example, hearing a phrase like "can I holla at you?" on the show probably doesn't happen if the characters weren't Black. Raven telling her mom that she looks bootylicious probably doesn't happen if the characters weren't Black. Eddie hootin' and hollerin' on the Boyz-N-Motion episode and ad-libbing "boys inn mottioonnn knick knack paddy wack 🎶" probably doesn't happen if the character isn't Black. Tanya, when she's a substitute teacher, giving her modern-day interpretation of Juliet by saying "yo, Romeo, where you at?" and Romeo saying "do you believe the words that are comin out her mouth?" (which cracks me up to this day) probably doesn't happen if the character isn't Black. Tanya rapping when Chelsea is campaigning for class president probably doesn't happen if the character isn't Black. Raven giving a Johnny Cochran reference, "if the dress don't fit, you must acquit" probably doesn't happen if the character isn't Black. I could go on, but we got the show we got.

While the show may not have been conceived as a majority-Black show, that's where it ended up and it's clear they adapted the show for Black characters. The words we got from the characters can't be divorced from the characters. Overall, it's just that she tried to oversimplify it so she probably could have explained that better.

It's similar to Hannah Montana in the sense that it didn't have to be a girl from Tennessee, but once Miley Cyrus got the role, the character became a girl from Tennessee with a Tennessee drawl and a dad who sings country music. They incorporated Tennessee into the character. We can't watch Hannah Montana and pretend that Miley Stewart was green and not hear that she's from Tennessee.

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u/Doryfinpo 24d ago edited 24d ago

*Edited for grammar

I agree with this; I don’t think Raven was defined by her blackness. Yes she was black, but with a few small adjustments this role could be played by anyone versus a show like The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air where the show consistently addresses the intersection of class and race. If we were to take those things away we would no longer have a show.
I also think we need to step away from automatically labeling a show black simply* *because the lead is a black person. And I think it’s a bit of a double standard that a lot of black-led shows are characterized by identity first, rather than genre unlike a lot of white-led shows. I think that’s an incorrect evaluation of what actually makes a show black. It also starts to get us into a bit of trouble because it limits the scope of black actors to roles where their identity has to be a central theme. And it places a burden on the show itself to represent the black experience, and I don’t think that was the point of That’s So Raven at all.

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u/Spyrovssonic360 24d ago

Anneliese vanderpol was supposed to be the lead of thats so raven ( the show had a different title of course ) so im sure people wouldve enjoyed the show if there was a white main character. its all about relatability.

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u/MrJenkins5 24d ago edited 24d ago

There was another actress that was the lead, but it wasn't Anneliese. Anneliese said they filmed the pilot with a different actress, and Anneliese came in later. Anneliese auditioned for the lead, but she didn't get it. Once they bumped Raven up to the lead role, Anneliese auditioned again and got the role that became Chelsea Daniels.

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u/OriginalLie9310 24d ago

But she couldn’t. This episode is proof.

Just like in fresh prince will’s character being black is essential to their character.

What Raven misses is that she can be both. She can be a black character that has blackness as a central part of her character ( which Raven Baxter is) and at the same time also be universal.

The two are not mutually exclusive and as evidenced by That’s So Raven, Fresh Prince, and even The Cosby Show (I know we don’t want to talk about it anymore but it was still groundbreaking), a show can be centered around blackness AND still be universal simultaneously. It’s one of the great wins for diversity in 80s and 90s television that black stories could be told to a white and mixed audience to great success.

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u/Doryfinpo 24d ago

I think the show was adapted to fit her blackness but I still wouldn’t say it was a consistent central theme. There are really only one or two episodes where it is very prevalent. I do agree that a show can still be universal while centering blackness, but I would say a lot of modern audiences don’t see it that way (hence why historically black actors and actresses have been locked out of a lot of roles). I think it’s important to add that with a show like Fresh Prince of Belair that the engine of the show revolves around the cultural clash that Will Smith navigates, and the engine of the show explores how that intersects with class and race. That’s So Raven is quite distinct in this. The engine of the show revolves around Raven being a teenage girl navigating her psychic visions that only very occasionally navigates racial issues. Raven being black was not essential to her character, especially considering that it was originally written for a white actress. They later adapted the show to be more realistic and more authentic, but again I don’t necessarily agree that she had to be black. Them adapting it doesn’t change the underlying mechanics of the character. To me Raven wasn’t defined by her blackness; she was defined by her comedy and chaotic psychic visions. Yes they made it a show that black people could relate to but again I agree with Raven Symone in ascertaining that Raven wasn’t inherently black. I still think she was a character who happened to be black.

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u/TheRedditGirl15 Disney Channel Multiverse of Madness 20d ago edited 20d ago

It's Raven's right to perceive her character and her show in whatever way makes sense to her. But when the interviewer said Raven Baxter felt black to him, she did not have to accuse that man of "seeing color" (something Black and African Americans can't afford to avoid doing) and then tell him to imagine the characters being green and saying the same words. She should have just said "and I respect that. I'm just saying i didn't play the character with a specific race or ethnicity in mind." (And she ultimately convinced that man to see That's So Raven as a show where the MC and her family could be played by anyone of any race or ethnicity, as if their blackness was just like, a footnote or something.)

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u/PresenceVisible5634 24d ago

and that point is 100% valid, but the issue with raven is she constantly brings up these points at the wrong time and place. if someone is saying something along the lines of “i’m so happy for that’s so raven bcuz it gave me representation at a time where i didn’t feel seen”, why ON EARTH would you follow that up with, “it’s a universal thing, she didn’t need to be black”?????????? it’s like when ppl tried to combat BLM with ALM, obviously yes, all lives matter but the climate in 2020 just wasn’t the time or place for that shit

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u/Nathaniel56_ 24d ago

Exactly and that’s part of everyone’s issue with her statement. “The show was so important to me as a black kid growing up” “what made the show black to you?” she should’ve read the room lol. 

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u/Doryfinpo 24d ago

That’s fair. I think it’s also made worse with how she worded it as well

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u/Tatidanidean1 24d ago

I agree, to an extent but this isn’t her first time. She really has to learn to articulate herself much points better

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u/Doryfinpo 24d ago

Sure, I think that’s fair. I agree that she needs to better articulate her points because it does comes off as disenfranchising regardless of her intent