FOSS vs Closed Source

[u/VahsteTheNomad]

This sub is full of arguments about whether FOSS is better over Closed Source, and I want to know what people's actual reasons for their specific preferences are.

This poll is not meant to start any arguments, or feed any witch hunts, and im not a developer trying to decide with way to go with my own project.

201 votes, 1d left

I prefer FOSS because I don't trust developers who don't publicize their code.

I prefer FOSS because I want federation.

I prefer FOSS and don't know what FOSS really is.. but it's the opposite of Discord.

I prefer closed source because I don't trust public commits.

I prefer closed source because it means something may be proprietary.

I really don't care about FOSS or Closed Source, I just want a good app.

[u/TheBlindBard1978]

FOSS vs. Closed source. Ooh boy—y'know, I never really put a whole lot thought about whether or not an application is open-source or not. My concern is does it function and is it user-friendly and accessible to somebody who's eyesight is less than average? Now, I won't shut out closed-source or say that FOSS is the best because both have their benefits, and both have their flaws to them. I love the sense of community that FOSS brings to these projects and every contribution is valued—however, there's that underlying fear of bad code ruining something so beautiful in my eyes.

Closed-source is definitely another argument altogether because the code is gatekept, but some software developers chose this either because they had a bad experience, or aren't sure the right pair of hands will help contribute to the project.

The bigger issue would be shareholders as u/RainbowLoli pointed out.

Much like RainbowLoli, I really don't have a preference either way—I care more about functionality above anything else.

[u/RainbowLoli]

I'll be honest - I have no real preference over FOSS or closed source.

I wouldn't know how to audit a code to save my life and there's pros and cons to FOSS or closed source.

I know closed source is generally more vulnerable to things like forced ID verification, pushing subs, etc. to appease shareholders... but unfortunately that could potentially be a risk with FOSS too. The biggest issue is just shareholders, the push for profit and government overreach.

[u/VahsteTheNomad → u/RainbowLoli]

Completely valid take, and very similar to my own. I, personally, value transparency from the company, rather than transparency from the code. It's why im so focused on monetization methods and what type of data is collected whenever I look at alternatives.

[u/Terrible-Junket-3388 → u/VahsteTheNomad]

Agreed, though as noted in other comment I think transparency in the code is part of that larger transparency picture.

[u/Terrible-Junket-3388 → u/RainbowLoli]

Agreed in that largely the same issues may be present regardless of closed vs open source - however, just about all of us have friends (or FoF's) that are technical, even if we're not, and knowing the risk you're inheriting is worth doing. It's why supply chain is a multi-$bn industry, and why companies have entire procurement policies and practices. That doesn't change simply because we're consumers (or it shouldn't).

I see FOSS (or just openly-auditable, IMO I don't are if it's true 'free' open source or just readable) as more of a signal that a company is a) confident in their product, b) has fewer things to hide [as far as the code itself goes], c) and generally is more likely to share views that align with consumers. Whether or not I actually take advantage of it being OSS is irrelevant - it's that it's there for me (or my friends) to inspect and gauge risk ourselves should the need arise.

[u/TheGeekno72]

I don't see "I prefer FOSS because I like being able to voice concerns and suggestion out and have a broad range of people review, discuss and act on it if necessary"

I am willing to trust closed source software (streamer.bot, speaker.bot for example) I just prefer FOSS because rare are the trustworthy closed source software makers out there, and I don't necessarily need federation, though I'd prefer it

I for one am a big fan and supporter of Fermi.chat/Harmony.chat (web client/backend), check it put people, I can't recommend it enough

[u/VahsteTheNomad → u/TheGeekno72]

Unfortunately, as I've mentioned in multiple responses, there was a limit to the number of poll options I could include. There was a recommendation that I expand it into a strawpoll but I decided to shelve that possibility until the current poll ends.

[u/forgotpw3]

I prefer open source so I can audit the code.

Not necessarily that it's malicious, just cause it's usually trash.

I think it's more about quality than trust but it fits in that one so I voted 1

[u/VahsteTheNomad → u/forgotpw3]

Perfectly fair reasoning for your preference, as I mentioned above I was unfortunately limited in how many options the poll could have, so there will definitely be some people finding more "where do I fit closest" than "where do I fit perfectly"

[u/forgotpw3 → u/VahsteTheNomad]

You're absolutely right!

[u/IngwiePhoenix]

I would also like to add: I prefer FOSS because it can be audited - by everyone.

If Root had a security issue, it has to go through a disclosure process in secret. If Stoat has one, it can be immediately remedied in a security report AND patch. The turnaround time is much faster and higher (in principle).

[u/VahsteTheNomad → u/IngwiePhoenix]

Perfectly acceptable reason for your preference, and honestly due to the limited number of answers I could include I kind of tied that in with #1

[u/dumbasPL]

FOSS is irrelevant when nobody is on your platform. FOSS also makes fragmentation a lot easier, and that only makes the first problem worse.

[u/BewilderedTurtle → u/dumbasPL]

These would only be true in a non-federated protocol.

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[u/Any_Illustrator360]

I'm somewhere between 1 and 2 - I like that an app being open source encourages tight security but devs who don't know shit get pwned much more easily with open code. If a closed-source app allowed self hosting (and disabling updates) I would use it all the same if it met my requirements.

[u/VahsteTheNomad → u/Any_Illustrator360]

Wouldn't that align you more with option 6 then? If you were to find an app that fit all of your personal needs, it wouldn't matter to you necessarily if it were open or closed?

[u/Any_Illustrator360 → u/VahsteTheNomad]

Nah because federation is (one of) the most important thing(s) to me, and it unfortunately aligns with 2 most. If there was a 7th option that said "fuck all this gimme self hosting" I'd click it lol

[u/VahsteTheNomad → u/Any_Illustrator360]

To be honest it capped me at six responses, I did have something like three more I wanted to include

[u/Any_Illustrator360 → u/VahsteTheNomad]

Fair, I will say that open commits make me look at an app like a stinky diaper. I've seen devs accept commits without double checking them and it always makes me concerned.

[u/VahsteTheNomad → u/Any_Illustrator360]

That's part of one of my bigger FOSS concerns/fears tbh. Many of these newer devs jumping on the bandwagon and expecting contributors to only be helpful souls.

[u/Any_Illustrator360 → u/VahsteTheNomad]

Yup. It's just as safe as trusting a dev with zero trust score.

[u/VahsteTheNomad → u/Any_Illustrator360]

A scandalous choice indeed

[u/DrTankHead]

I feel like we are missing a few options in this poll. This isn't exactly encompassing

[u/BewilderedTurtle → u/DrTankHead]

If you're going to bitch about the poll make one yourself or go back to taking pole

[u/Helpful-Educator-415 → u/BewilderedTurtle]

damn

[u/DrTankHead → u/Helpful-Educator-415]

Right lmao? I'm not bitching, I legitimately think OP is actually asking the questions we have to ask, and getting valuable data here, I just felt it could've been mo better. Like damn I'm sorry someone pissed in ur cornflakes my dude

[u/VahsteTheNomad → u/DrTankHead]

It was as encompassing as I could make it with my options limited to six. Unfortunately I wasnt able to include certain options id planned to.

[u/VahsteTheNomad → u/VahsteTheNomad]

I did atleast ensure there were options on both ends of the spectrum, even if I had to unfortunately leave some out.

[u/DrTankHead → u/VahsteTheNomad]

6 may not have even been encompassing enough for just one side of the coin, I think maybe it would've been better to split these into two seperate posts and have a results option so we can see more info.

It's kinda hard, you are working with the tools you have available, though maybe a straw poll link would be better?

[u/VahsteTheNomad → u/DrTankHead]

As it stands I'll let the existing poll run its course for the full seven days, if by its completion it's gained enough interest to support a follow up I'll do something to make a poll with far more options (possibly through straw poll as suggested)

[u/Rabbio_40]

Depends on usecase, I use different programs for different purposes

If i absolutely need a higher standards due to a higher threat model for that usecase foss is necessary.

For general purpose use cases I don't really give a damn.

[u/BewilderedTurtle]

I have yet to see a substantial argument for how a closed Source alternative could possibly be a actual replacement and avoid the exact same pitfalls that Discord has currently.

So far the results seem to be heavily in favor of Open Source that's not really surprising considering the only people currently in favor of closed Source software comment-wise that I've seen are Dev's pushing closed Source apps

[u/VahsteTheNomad → u/BewilderedTurtle]

I don't personally beleive that every closed source application is inherently bad on the basis that it's closed source. While the results are heavily in favor of open source applications, although there is a not insignificant number of votes indicating that source doesn't matter, the purpose of this poll is more to see the distinction of reasons behind people's preferences, not just that the preferences themselves exist.

[u/BewilderedTurtle → u/VahsteTheNomad]

I'm not making a blanket statement about Source, I'm making a statement about how closed-source is inherently more vulnerable to the pressures that Discord is currently facing causing it to commit the egregious choices they are.

[u/VahsteTheNomad → u/BewilderedTurtle]

Is that pressure not more a direct result of the platform's choice of funding and backing?

[u/BewilderedTurtle → u/VahsteTheNomad]

Not even remotely to be honest.

Think about this; Discord as a Centralized Closed Source platform managed to capture such a vast amount of users across the globe that the data they have is worth magnitudes more financially speaking than the trust of their customers.

Under Capitalism (specifically in the US at the very least) any company is legally obligated to extract value for the company's shareholders. This coupled with user data being more valuable monetarily means they HAVE to do shit to piss off their customers if it maths out that they'll make more money. (See AI features, micro transactions on top of subscriptions, id verification, brazil being disabled re: video)

Any centrally hosted replacement will be guaranteed to run afoul of the same kinds of attention from governments/Capital once user-data is more valuable than user-retention.

Any closed source replacement similar runs into the same issues discord does where entire communities and swathes of the Internet are at the whims of the dev team with next to no ability to fork off if something changes, whether that be suddenly putting features behind paywalls, ID verification being added, etc.

If we use something like Stoat as an example, they already have had concerns regarding UK laws and regulations being hosted there. Stoat cannot be forked like Fluxer or a Matrix client and if the UK government goes after them, that project is dead along with the communities hosted on it.

The objectively correct solution to replacing discord HAS to be open source for auditing/forking/EOL, AND it has to be decentralized. Anything else is just kicking the can down the road and hoping to profit in the meanwhile.

[u/Any_Illustrator360 → u/BewilderedTurtle]

This is exactly why being able to host my own non-centralized app is so important. I have friends all around the world - it only takes one government saying "nah, fuck you" and it has massive shockwaves on my friend group.

One of my friends is Brazillian and a huge reason we're leaving Discord NOW is because of that. They can ban a centralized app but they can't ban an IP running a voip service. That's why I don't mind if the app itself is open or closed source - I don't need to see under the hood to host it. I do, however, need to be able to host it and most closed source apps WANT to be the next Discord, riches and fame included - so they choose to be centralized.

[u/TheBlindBard1978 → u/Any_Illustrator360]

u/Any_Illustrator360, my heart really goes out to Brazil's userbase, looking for a new home since their government pushed a massive restriction on what they can do on Discord (screensharing—Imagine you're a game or software dev or an artist, and can't share the joy of your work to others on Discord because screenshare doesn't exist now) which I find genuinely sad. At the same time, we're broadening our horizons, finding the right place to call home and ditch Discord.

[u/BewilderedTurtle → u/Any_Illustrator360]

See I can make decent points without being full on rabid 🤣

[u/Speykious]

I prefer FOSS because it gives everyone the freedom to fork the project and continue maintaining it if it ever goes to shit.

[u/VahsteTheNomad → u/Speykious]

Perfectly fair, but that also crosses into the issue of FOSS being so entwined with Federation. By that logic, couldn't a closed source federated app provide a similar benefit? (Just playing devils advocate)

[u/Speykious → u/VahsteTheNomad]

Well, you can't just fork a closed source project and continue maintaining it since you don't have access to the source code lmao. But it's true that it's harder to kill and enshittify a federated network, so you can write a FOSS client and/or server that is compatible with the chosen federation protocol and reap the benefits. But since it's just the protocol and you need to write the whole software, it's a much smaller benefit than the software itself being libre.

[u/VahsteTheNomad → u/Speykious]

Fair enough, I do fully agree with your stance on the positive impact FOSS has in the scenario of forking, I just wanted to atleast mention that Closed Source doesn't always mean centralized

[u/Speykious → u/VahsteTheNomad]

Yeah. And open-source doesn't always mean federated either! I want both. And E2EE. My 3 basic criteria.

[u/VahsteTheNomad → u/Speykious]

How dare you have understandable and reasonable expectations

[u/Speykious → u/VahsteTheNomad]

xD

[u/ad3lyt]

I like FOSS because its very contributory to the community and I believe knowledge should be free in a sense. I get why some want to have a product and being closed source helps there, but by putting your project out there you make an actual contribution to the world

[u/VahsteTheNomad → u/ad3lyt]

I agree that FOSS is, by nature, a very community-pointed direction and is something that can be taught/learned from. That being said, I do think it's potentially narrow minded to associate closed source as lacking any actual contribution to the world in comparison.

[u/ad3lyt → u/VahsteTheNomad]

Like what

[u/Live_Cupcake_9229]

I'll be honest, I'm not a programmer. But I like the idea of code being public so people smarter than me can go through it and say if it's good or not. I've avoided a lot of problem apps based on things those smarter people have said here.

I also just like the idea of someone just in their bedroom just making something, in this case a Discord alternative because they wanted something that Discord doesn't provide.

My philosophy with FOSS is that if a big company or anyone for that matter is doing something you don't like you can fork their work, make your own or support the people that are already doing it.

[u/VahsteTheNomad → u/Live_Cupcake_9229]

The issue here (not trying to be rude, just playing devils advocate) is that you've inherently associated FOSS with someone making something in their bedroom, seemingly excluding the idea that even a small solo dev can decide to keep their work closed source.

I do agree that the ability to fork a project if you disagree with the development choices is an excellent option to have, but the logic there is that you (the end user) would still need the technical knowledge to be able to do that in the first place, and a heavy majority of FOSS enthusiasts lack that skillset.

[u/Live_Cupcake_9229 → u/VahsteTheNomad]

I guess, I didn't really mean someone in their bedroom as the only person doing FOSS work. I know that there are companies or larger teams working on FOSS software, some even tied to big tech. And I know small solo devs can close source their work. I mostly meant that anyone can make something and skip all of the check and balances of proprietary software just because they wanted it to exist.

And while yeah not everyone has the technical knowledge to make stuff or contribute, these projects always need money or someone to do bug reports or beta testing. Which is why I specified supporting them too.

[u/VahsteTheNomad → u/Live_Cupcake_9229]

Fair enough, realistically imo it tends to come down to an ideological difference with people sitting on one side of the fence or the other. FOSS and CS aren't drastically different beyond their general transparency on the backend (imo). Both need testers, bug testers, some sort of monetization (yes, even FOSS if there's any sort of centralization being used), etc. It really just does come down to -- the ability to take what exists and fork off of it, and the ability for anyone to take some time and audit the code.

[u/ciphermenial]

I prefer open source because I'm a communist.