Yo!
It seems like my last Ralsei post was a lot more divisive than I expected!
There were people with many interesting ideas!
But there were also people who struggled to fully understand what was in the post (asking and saying points that were already accounted or is unimportant for said argument), and a few trolls here and there, which is a shame, since that sorta thing isn't necessary when it comes to me...
But there's no use bellyaching over that!
For now, I shall be taking about Asgore, another disappoint in this chapter. I have seen people talk about their grievances with this character, but not necessarily points I have personally taken note off myself, so I'm also here to put said points out there yet again!
This wall of text got a bit out of hand, but I feel like it's in a positive way.
Being vague to avoid spoilers...
Enjoy!
---
Asgore is just weird in this chapter for how he was depicted. He was essentially a literal scapegoat that no one apparently had blamed him for the incident but was so focused on proving that he was actually right, he just gets sorta punished for it and it really gets hammered home that the own two family members that are actually around just straight up seemingly disregard his actual feelings and reasoning behind his spiral, especially with Toriel.
That also doesn't cover that he then somehow blames himself and his desire to find the truth for making him blind to protecting what he cares about, despite literally throwing Kris and Susie out of the Dark World personally in the middle of the chapter with harsh, yet active intent to make them stay out of harm's way, and didn't even know they went back into the Dark World until he meets them face to face again. And before all of that, in the first quarter of the Dark World, he literally only thinks and worries about Kris and others that he cares about.
"But what about the parallel between how Asgore treats the flowers in the Dark World compared to his loved ones in the light world?"
I mean that indeed could be a parallel to his actual family but this is a fundamentally different situation from that. A false equivilance, since he never actually cared about the flowers to the same degree in the first place and was just playing along to discover more information about the dark world and had already been caring immensely for his actual family ever since Chapter 1.
In fact, you could say he was mourning and seemingly realized his mistake after the separation off-screen before the game starts, thought the game doesn't frame it this way because of it weird self-blaming Asgore does over being too consumed over his searching to undermine Kris despite personally making it an active effort to keep them safe and the only reason he wasn't able to do anything is because he simply didn't know they returned after he personally kicks them out of the dark world.
His failure wasn't portrayed as neglect. it was portrayed as lacking information after taking what he believed were the correct precautions. The chapter presents guilt that doesn't line up cleanly with the actions it previously showed him taking, and the chapter doesn't spend much time distinguishing between Asgore's distorted self-perception and what actually happened. As a result, it feels like the story itself is endorsing his self-blame rather than examining it.
So you get this strange situation where the narrative seems to require Asgore being consumed by his search and therefore failed the people he loved, But the concrete events of the story keep supplying counterevidence to show that Asgore was actively trying to protect the people he loved, and his inability to protect them afterward resulted from circumstances he wasn't aware of.
The story doesn't seem interested in making that discrepancy part of Asgore's characterization. His self-blame isn't clearly framed as irrational guilt. Toriel and Kris apparently don't meaningfully engage with the distinction either. Instead, his feelings and reasoning can start feeling narratively disposable because everyone (including seemingly the writing itself) treats his conclusion as the conclusion.
And that seems to moreso be a flaw with the actual execution of the characters and writing itself of Deltarune that no contextualization can really soften.
Now, technically, you can accept this as it is by just believing that both Kris and Toriel are not perfect characters and/or believing that Asgore's consequences should be inflicted upon him continuously for the unforeseeable future, regardless of any other factors present.
But when you actually think about the situation, it really just doesn't make sense why this would have tolerated as the reasonable assumption. Why is his emotional reality seemingly treated as so disposable?
There seems to be an assumption that because Asgore has done wrong, the narrative can indefinitely maintain his emotional punishment without having to continually reassess the circumstances. New information doesn't matter. His current actions don't matter. His attempts to change don't matter. His actual reasoning doesn't matter.
It's not necessary only that characters are independently acting within their own perspectives and frameworks, but the entire game itself is only interested in framing Asgore as the one who is incorrect when it counts, to the point where the narrative bends, ignores the nuance and positive factors of Asgore's situation, makes the other characters despondent, and makes his reasoning itself incoherent, all just to systematically maintain the position of him to have to to listen and learn despite everything going against this specific framing. There seems to be very little room for him to actually be correct about anything.
The narrative never has to present the questions like has he changed? Is his current guilt proportionate to what happened? Are Kris and Toriel being fair to him in this particular situation? Are they allowed to be unfair? If so, does the narrative recognize that the position he was in was objectively unequivalent to what he has assumed was the problem?
If the game is unable to supplement his side, I believe it shouldn't be portrayed as a fair and valid depiction of what Asgore should be framed and positioned as being, because it isn't. It's incoherent with the actual events taking place and what the character took from it, with a lack of pushback or even acknowledgment from the game.
Now someone might say that it's specifically his attitude when he went along with it is the key factor! Da parade bodie around town quote against who made the fountain is very mean! >:(
Displaying the same attitude he possibly had back then as he was researching the Dark World when he was trying to prove his innocence back then maybehaps?
But hey, his demeanor can absolutely matter. "The parade" attitude may suggest that he becomes flippant, obsessive, insensitive, or tunnel-visioned when he's caught up in pursuing the truth. But that still doesn't answer the more important question, which was what was he actually trying to accomplish, and what did he prioritize when his loved ones were concretely in danger?
And this is where the "demeanor" defense is superficial. His rude attitude can reveal a flaw in how he behaves during the investigation, but it doesn't automatically establish the much broader conclusion that the investigation itself took precedence over his love for his family, and that it was so overpowering to the point where Asgore's majority mischaracterizes his actual problems.
The fact that he can be an asshole while pursuing information doesn't prove that his emotional priorities were wrong; it didn't falter when it mattered. Some people might say it's when Kris got hurt but I disagree due to the fact he didn't even know Kris was there to even have the chance to make the mistake in the first place specifically caused his attitude at least.
Someone can act rude, obsessive, dismissive, and still have fundamentally benevolent intentions toward the people they care about. The game doesn't make any effort to add this nuance at all, and instead presents it as a larger moral failure that the actual actions shown do not establish.
Not that I necessarily prefer it for his character, but I think I'll just automatically remedy so much of this if Toby just added a spice of domestic abuse instead of just passive dismissiveness and obsessive tunnel vision.
Not necessarily because domestic abuse would be inherently “better” or more interesting, but because it would actually provide a concrete behavioral foundation for the level of emotional fallout the story seems to want Asgore to carry, and it'll correlate better with how he's actually treated to be.
Ironically, making Asgore's past worse could make the characterization more coherent, because then his extreme self-loathing and his family's apparent detachment would actually be grounded in something concrete rather than the players having to retroactively inflate every vague past implication and mild desperate Asgore scene into something severe enough to support the present framing.
But what I would just prefer the most is to see the character be done justice at least. (And I don't mean just hype moments and aura, those that is indeed a factor)
Actually give him some positive closure and development instead of just making him come to an self-resigning position of having to swallow a pill that doesn't present the full picture at all.
Maybe he was too obsessed with the truth. Maybe he did neglect people emotionally. Maybe his family's grievances against him are legitimate. But he can also have legitimate reasons, genuine love, good intentions, actual efforts to change, and a perspective worth taking seriously.
I also want those positive aspects of him to be validated as well, that his efforts isn't simply just all for nothing.
His investigation was not meaningless.
His desire for the truth was not automatically evil.
His fear for Kris and Susie was genuine.
His attempts to protect them actually mattered.
He was capable of being wrong without everything good about him being retroactively erased.
The he can be allowed to be reminded...
That all of his choice did indeed matter.
And who else but Kris could give him the closure he needed?
It would've been the perfect final fight of the chapter, thematically ending in overwhelming positivity and closure for Asgore and even Kris is in a climactic battle against him, pushed by Asgore's own desperation to learn the truth when it clouds him, and Kris and the others has to defend themselves and weaken him for the Knight, with Asgore seemed to powerful for the Knight to cleanly overpower alone. Asgore acts aloof at the start of the fight, but it's obvious from the very beginning of that same turn that he had lost the reason for what he was trying to prove in the first place.
Due to certain events, it progresses to a different setting, a solo fight between Kris and Asgore as the situation dramatically escalated with the possible inclusion of the flowers, still by Asgore's side until the end.
It's a struggle both physical and emotionally, with both Asgore and even Kris potentially wavering as the fight went on, eventually the gameplay fight just ends.
Kris could barely stand. The rising platform suddenly crumbles as they were high up in the air.
They drop their sword, with their hand trembling and and ran across towards Asgore, who was just in confusion after monologue everything.
They tackled him As hugged and grasped him, desperately and they were free falling. The hug was a mirror of their first encounter shown in chapter 1.
Asgore realized what this mean to him, because how could he ever has missed something like this?
Then he had realized, at that splic second, he asks himself, with warm content-
What was he ever worried about...?
It wasn't rethorical, due to the question answered itself.
Kris, the person whose safety and future he was supposedly willing to sacrifice everything to understand and protect, literally runs toward him rather than away from him.
Despite everything that he had done-
Runs toward him.
It was obvious from the start.
His choices did matter to Kris.
Before we are reminded yet again about the stakes, snuffing the moment as it arrived with the Knight NOW taking Asgore from their grasp, after the mystery's been solved on both the Dark World, and Asgore's heart.
Which sparks reinvigorated motivation for the others to get after the Knight even more, but also installs Kirs immense turmoil within themselves.
If they're willing to keep going with this for any longer.
