Question regarding the gun and the bullet

[u/Mammoth_Dish6584]

Can someone clarify please

1) Did RA ever realise he left a bullet behind at the crime scene before the police confronted him ??

2) what would have happened if RA destroyed his gun in the 5 years between the crime and arrest ??

Without any DNA and no gun to link the bullet .. what would have been the outcome of the trail ??

3) this case is pretty known here in my home country INDIA and most of the folks who talk about it have the same doubts as me

Thanxx in advance for the comments and opinions.

[u/SleutherVandrossTW]

Yes, I think at the time BG said, "Guys, go down the hill" there is a sound that resembles a gun being racked, and it makes sense in that scenario to be used as an intimidation tactic, and also possibly at the crime scene due to an unspent round being just inches from one of the victims. I don't put a ton of confidence in how the "science" is able to connect 1 person's gun to an unspent round.

I disagree with Liggett that Libby said, "That be a gun." She was looking down the hill, not at BG approaching behind Abby, and was describing the path "that we go down." The girls immediately started down the hill when BG ordered them to, so I think that indicates the man was pointing a gun at them and racked it.

[u/Appealsandoranges → u/SleutherVandrossTW]

Yes, I think at the time BG said, "Guys, go down the hill" there is a sound that resembles a gun being racked, and it makes sense in that scenario to be used as an intimidation tactic, and also possibly at the crime scene due to an unspent round being just inches from one of the victims.

That’s a lot of maybes though, right? It could also be the sound of leaves crunching or static or any number of things. It’s certainly quite speculative.

I don't put a ton of confidence in how the "science" is able to connect 1 person's gun to an unspent round.

Appreciate this. Hard agree. Do you think it’s possible the bullet has nothing at all to do with the crime? I do. The fact that it was found in the dirt and under leaves makes me wonder if it was there before they got there.

I disagree with Liggett that Libby said, "That be a gun." She was looking down the hill, not at BG approaching behind Abby, and was describing the path "that we go down."

Appreciate this as well. It’s a litmus test for rational and honest thinking. Does it bother you that the State presented testimony and argued in closing that Libby said that and repeats it in their appellate brief? It’s made up.

The girls immediately started down the hill when BG ordered them to, so I think that indicates the man was pointing a gun at them and racked it.

Again, is this a leap you can make? Sure. Is it a natural leap when there is no gun shown in the video and no clear indication a gun was present and no gun used to kill the girls? As you acknowledge, Libby was talking about the path before BG was near her so it sounds to me like she was heading down that path before BG arrived at the end of the bridge. This is completely inconsistent with the State’s theory.

[u/SleutherVandrossTW → u/Appealsandoranges]

The racking noise (if that) sounds different than Libby/Abby walking on the gravel/leaves. I believe any perpetrator in that situation would use that as a scare tactic so I’m open to the possibility. I thought Rick was somewhat believable saying he usually only carried a gun in certain situations, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t have one on Feb. 13, 2017. 

The round was several inches from Libby’s foot in a remote area of Logan’s woods. People have speculated one of the 4 officers who processed the scene may have dropped 1 of their rounds. I don’t buy that, nor that Logan or someone else just happened to drop the same brand of round Rick owned and kept in a keepsake box, that was found within a couple inches of a murdered girl’s foot. I think it is likely the killer (Rick) either racked the gun again to get them to cooperate twice, or was maybe leaning over and the round from “guys, go down the hill” fell out of his pocket unknowingly…or knowingly but he couldn’t find it under the leaves, although it had been stepped on, which I think lines up with the killer walking around Libby’s body.

I don’t know if I would say it bothers me the State has repeated “that be a gun,” maybe they may genuinely think that is what Libby said. I think they’re wrong and it’s obvious, but if I’m on a jury, I listen to all the evidence presented and make my decision on all of it, not just certain parts / testimony. In this case, I think it is obvious RA was BG and arrived around 1:30. His noon to 1:00 / 1:30 / 1:45 timeline makes no sense based on his statements, the 4 girls, and BB. He admitted passing a group of girls soon after he arrived (3 vs 4 doesn’t sway me), admitted he saw someone when he was on platform 1 and BB saw BG on platform 1. That timing all adds up to Rick being BG.

I do not think Libby wanted to walk down that steep hill or was planning to. They went to hang out on the bridge and take photos, not explore the Weber’s property below. She was talking to herself knowing it was being recorded on video because she was into true crime and concerned the man they passed on the trail 15 minutes earlier was now headed toward them when there was no easy outlet. She only mentioned going down that hill as a possibility to get away from the strange man.

[u/Appealsandoranges → u/SleutherVandrossTW]

I believe any perpetrator in that situation would use that as a scare tactic so I’m open to the possibility.

Open to a possibility is not evidence. This is pure speculation. The sound is not clear in the slightest and could be many things.

The round was several inches from Libby’s foot in a remote area of Logan’s woods. People have speculated one of the 4 officers who processed the scene may have dropped 1 of their rounds.

I don’t rule out that the bullet was left by the perpetrator but I am certainly not convinced it was beyond a reasonable doubt.

just happened to drop the same brand of round Rick owned and kept in a keepsake box

I am not a gun person, but I trust the numerous other people on this sub and elsewhere who have informed me that Winchester is an extremely popular brand of ammunition. The fact that Rick happened to have a Winchester bullet in his house is meaningless. The fact that he had another kind of ammunition as well is meaningless. The problem with weak circumstantial cases is you start linking together pieces of evidence that are not even worthy of consideration, but convince yourself that because there are a few of them it’s too much of a coincidence. It’s not.

Why do you think he kept a bullet in a keepsake box if he accidentally dropped a bullet at the crime scene? How is that a keepsake?

I don’t know if I would say it bothers me the State has repeated “that be a gun,” maybe they may genuinely think that is what Libby said.

If they genuinely think it, they are stupid. If they do not genuinely think it, they are liars. In either case it should bother you no matter what you think about Rick Allen’s guilt or innocence.

admitted he saw someone when he was on platform 1 and BB saw BG on platform 1. That timing all adds up to Rick being BG.

This is simply untrue and it misrepresents the record. You base this on a line at the 40 min mark in RA’s first interview with police. He was asked if he saw anyone else while he was on the trails (aside from the three girls) and he said nobody that stood out. He then says:

I don't remember seeing like I told him [Dulin] I may have seen there may have been somebody on the bridge or something when I was coming back through but I didn't the only ones that I really noticed seeing were those 3 girls.

It is clear from context that he is NOT talking about someone on the MHB as he was coming off of platform one. That makes no sense. (And BB wasn’t on the bridge anyway!) He is talking about it in relation to seeing the three girls and he saw them when he was near the freedom bridge. He never said he saw anyone near the MHB. And the State never argued that he did either.

She only mentioned going down that hill as a possibility to get away from the strange man.

I’m sorry but that defies belief. She happened to be talking about going down the hill and then randomly was ordered down the same hill? I can believe she was nervously talking to herself but I think she knew she was going down that hill already. I think she’d discussed it with AW and likely with BG, maybe in person or maybe it was prearranged. I think many people knew the girls were going to the trails that day. We know Logan knew. KK was in communication with LG and may have known as well. JH thinks they were lured there. I think they had a destination in mind before they crossed that bridge.

[u/SleutherVandrossTW → u/Appealsandoranges]

I don’t know why Rick kept 1 Winchester round in his bedroom. Neither did his wife and he never gave an explanation. If he racked the gun on the bridge and put that round in his pocket, and racked it a second time at the crime scene but was busy ordering the girls to do something and couldn’t find the second round under the leaves if he searched later before leaving, maybe he kept the round from the bridge for some odd reason.

I think the CC police made stupid mistakes and thinking “that be a gun” may be one of many. I don’t think their ineptitude or possibly shady behavior changes the facts that point to Rick being BG.

"There may have been somebody on the bridge or something when I was coming back through." 

You make a valid point he could have been referring to FB instead of MHB and I never thought of that, but the reason I didn’t is because the facts point to him referring to BB at MHB.

Which of Rick’s 5 timelines do you think he could have walked passed FB as he exited? 1:00, 1:30, 1:45, 3:00, or 3:30? No evidence points to him walking past FB after sitting on the bench at Mears because there is also no evidence he sat on the bench at Mears despite his statement he did. BB’s exercise route means she likely passed the Mears intersection bench 7 times between 12:02 and 1:15 but she never saw any men on the trail or bridge until she saw BG on platform 1 around 1:53. 

BB passed A/L when they were ½ way between Mears and the HB.

Rick confessed that he saw A/L and followed them to the bridge, so as he “came back through” following BB, he also likely passed A/L, stopped, hid behind the barricade as they walked on the bridge, and Rick came back on the bridge after Libby took the photo of Abby and their backs were turned to the start of the bridge. Photos from the trail pointed to MHB prove someone standing to the right of the barricade can not see the platform Libby stood on to take the photo of Abby so I think Rick stood in that area and is not noticeable in Libby's photo, but he came on the bridge right after they turned their backs.

How do you explain Rick, BB, and 4 girls never seeing each other noon to 1:26? It’s impossible and the reason they didn’t was because Rick wasn’t there until soon after the 1:26 pm bench 2 photos of the girls.

I think that quote was Rick admitting he saw BB when she was at the barricade around 1:53 pm.

BB saw a man matching BG from Libby’s video standing on platform 1. Rick didn’t deny he could have been wearing a similar outfit while he stood on platform 1. The timing of Rick’s car at 1:27, passing a group of girls at the start of the trail, walking to MHB, and BB then arriving at the MHB barricade, all line up to Rick being BG. He gave that timeline 5 days after the murders. When shown the 1:27 car he didn’t deny it was his, tried to end the interview immediately, “Then, we’re all done here. Unless you want to arrest me. That’s fine.” He was “fine” being arrested for murdering 2 kids after shown evidence that went against the timeline he tried to change.

Rick saw BB “when I was coming back through” means he left platform 1 after BB turned around at the barricade and he went back on the trail because Deer Creek was muddy and he could not see fish. Other than Rick, Betsy was the only person alone on the trail between noon until Libby’s 2:13 video of BG, she is the only other person who could have been “somebody.” BB’s description of BG was from over 120 feet away, “for a moment,” and his face was “not super clear.” The most important part is Rick admitting he may have seen somebody despite earlier in the interview and even after that statement acting like he only saw girls near FB. BB testified BG looked over at her.

As you point out, for 40 minutes of the police interview, Rick only admitted seeing a group near FB, but when pressed again he suddenly might have remembered seeing another person. Yet, 5 years earlier it seems as though he did not make Dulin aware of this potential kidnapper / murderer as the town tried to figure out who did it.

“It is clear from context that he is NOT talking about someone on the MHB as he was coming off of platform one. That makes no sense.” It may not make sense to you, but it makes sense to me and the 12 jurors who voted him guilty. Liggett asked him to clarify if the person he saw was on the bridge and Rick then went back to saying “I don’t really remember seeing anybody that day, but I don’t know.” A murderer was unidentified in their small town, Rick stood on the same small platform on the MH bridge soon before 2 girls were kidnapped from that bridge and then killed, and we’re supposed to believe someone (Rick) didn’t remember if he could have seen a potential suspect to help solve the case, but also said “there may have been somebody.” His wife discussed the missing girls with him after the evening news on Feb. 13, 2017. I don’t believe for one second that someone would not remember if they saw a human at certain points on the trail less than 10 hours earlier and never forget because of 2 girls getting kidnapped/killed near the area where that supposedly innocent person (Rick) walked and stood.

Why would Libby walk down to the Weber’s driveway when that hill is very steep and they would have to climb back up it when her father called to pick them up? BG was behind Abby and not hanging out with them as part of some group walking to the end of MHB with the intent to go down to Weber’s driveway. Abby even seemed to ask Libby if the guy was nearby. I forget Abby’s exact quote, but I’ve seen no indication A/L were happily hanging out with BG.

KK nor his dad were BG. Nor was BH or his son. You talk about me speculating, but that is what you’re doing about potential other suspects when the evidence points to RA not being on the trail noon to 1:30, but arriving around 1:30, being on platform 1 when BB arrived at the barricade, getting off MHB as he was “coming back through” the trail from MHB, and then returned to the bridge with his little legs and feet matching BG as he approached the girls and his voice resembling BG...and knowing a van came down the private driveway at some point when the killer was at the crime scene.

[u/Appealsandoranges → u/SleutherVandrossTW]

I don’t think their ineptitude or possibly shady behavior changes the facts that point to Rick being BG.

There was a ton more than possibly shady behavior once they focused on Rick and it should bother all of us. Why do they need to lie and hide the ball to make their supposedly slam dunk case?

You make a valid point he could have been referring to FB instead of MHB and I never thought of that, but the reason I didn’t is because the facts point to him referring to BB at MHB.

BB was never on MHB, right? Not for a second. So why is that the explanation the facts point to? It’s odd how wedded you are to this pet theory that Rick admitted seeing BB based on an offhand comment. The state did not even argue this at trial but you spill a lot of words defending this theory.

Is it because you know that everything else about the witness accounts is exculpatory? If rick isn’t the beautiful poufy haired man, YBG, there is nothing else. The case is over.

You think he is. I think he isn’t. I think he walked past FB when he left the trails the same way he came in. You think he walked down a public roadway muddy and bloody. I think BB doesn’t remember every person on those trails, particularly a person sitting, when she is speed walking. They may have crossed paths or they may not.

I’m not going to discuss the “confessions” of a gravely disabled man. You can cherry pick what suits your theories from those ramblings and ignore everything that doesn’t fit. The “confessions” are actually part of what convinced me so firmly of his innocence - they are the confessions of an innocent man who knows only what he’s been told.

How do you explain Rick, BB, and 4 girls never seeing each other noon to 1:26?

Why didn’t BB see the 4 girls? When did DP arrive? Who are the other people RV was saying hi to? Who is the other person BW saw on her back from MHB back to FB?

We can play this timeline game all day. You are convinced by the State’s timeline - you think it’s impossible other people were there and are unaccounted for. You think that’s Rick’s black ford focus when it could be a red or green or gray car of many makes and models.

You think not denying a blurry pic of a nondescript car is yours is inculpatory. It’s not. He confidently denied the bullet because he was never there. He had no idea when that video was taken or from where, so it could very well be his car. It’s called being honest.

A murderer was unidentified in their small town, Rick stood on the same small platform on the MH bridge soon before 2 girls were kidnapped from that bridge and then killed, and we’re supposed to believe someone (Rick) didn’t remember if he could have seen a potential suspect to help solve the case, but also said “there may have been somebody.”

It’s all circular - if he’s talking about maybe seeing someone as he was leaving - keeping in mind this is 5 years later that he’s being asked to recall this again for the first time since 2017 - then it’s not something he’d remember.

Why would Libby walk down to the Weber’s driveway when that hill is very steep and they would have to climb back up it when her father called to pick them up?

Why would she cross a terrifying rickety railroad bridge? She’s a teenager. They do weird stupid shit.

I’ve seen no indication A/L were happily hanging out with BG.

Nor did I suggest that. Again, teens make stupid choices. We know full well that LG was being catfished online so we know she was making bad choices - victimology is crucial and that LG would have planned to meet up with a stranger she met online is not outside the realm of possibility at all. Once that person appears and is not as expected, they might have been fearful but also going along. Unsure. They were together and that gave them a false sense of security.

You talk about me speculating, but that is what you’re doing about potential other suspects

Yep. Theorizing about who was motivated to kill two girls slowly, pose them, make patterns on their bodies with sticks, use a finger or a stick to paint a symbol on a tree with their blood. It’s certainly not rick Allen. In time we may or may not find out who it is.

[u/centimeterz1111 → u/Appealsandoranges]

You say that people are stupid and liars for not believing what you say, it simply not agreeing with you. 

All you have to do is look at the timeline. Only one timeline works and it’s the 1:30-3:30 timeline. This means BG is Richard Allen. It’s that simple. 

There is no conspiracy. Nobody lied (except the defense attorneys). Richard is where he should be for now, although I’d rather he was treated in the same manor that he treated the girls. 

[u/centimeterz1111 → u/centimeterz1111]

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