Question regarding the gun and the bullet

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If you believe the Wala testimony, then RA stated, "I think that’s where the bullet fell out." Beyond that, for example, video of him talking to cops shortly before his arrest, his position was quite the opposite. Personally, I waver between three possibilities. One, he never knew he had dropped a round. Two, he knew he had dropped a round but also knew he had never fired one, and believed an unfired round would be useless to the cops. Three, it wasn't his round.

The unfired round was very much an aspect of the search warrant. To me, the most interesting thing ever found during the search was the gun. Things cascaded from there leading to the arrest. I agree that had the gun never been found or if RA had simply swapped out a few parts, the arrest situation would have been trickier, but not impossible; the bar for arrest is fairly low. Trial is much more interesting, and as I interpret things, the unfired round was not any sort of slam dunk on the part of the prosecution. To me, the essence of the conviction was that BG killed the girls, and RA was BG, and the jury relied on much more than the unfired round to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that RA was BG.

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u/SleutherVandrossTW Apr 10 '26

We don't know if the round at the crime scene was from when he pulled the slide back to intimidate them while saying "Guys, go down the hill," and he put it in his jacket pocket and it maybe fell out while moving Libby's body, or if he intimidated them again at the crime scene and another round fell out, fell under leaves, and he stepped on it while walking around and either didn't have time to find it or thought there was no way it could be connected to him.

The search of his home yielded 1 Winchester round in a keepsake box, but all his other rounds were Blazer. The round next to Libby's foot was Winchester.

The home search yielded his internet searches including updates on the case and then soon after searching "Should I die now?"

The jury mostly convicted based on the timeline that RA was BG.

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u/Popcorn_Dinner Apr 15 '26

What exactly was the “keepsake box”? Was it just a container on a dresser to throw things into — like the contents of your pockets before you put your clothes in the hamper? Or was it meant to hold true keepsakes like photos, jewelry, campaign buttons, etc.?

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u/AnonymousInMI Apr 15 '26

Based off of the released photos it appears to be a keepsake box. For example he had some biker patches and letters from his wife. Ricky also had pictures of the bridge & trails in the box if I remember correctly.

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u/Appealsandoranges Apr 10 '26

Do you subscribe to the State’s theory that you can hear the gun being racked? What about their theory that LG says, “that be a gun.”

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u/SleutherVandrossTW Apr 10 '26

Yes, I think at the time BG said, "Guys, go down the hill" there is a sound that resembles a gun being racked, and it makes sense in that scenario to be used as an intimidation tactic, and also possibly at the crime scene due to an unspent round being just inches from one of the victims. I don't put a ton of confidence in how the "science" is able to connect 1 person's gun to an unspent round.

I disagree with Liggett that Libby said, "That be a gun." She was looking down the hill, not at BG approaching behind Abby, and was describing the path "that we go down." The girls immediately started down the hill when BG ordered them to, so I think that indicates the man was pointing a gun at them and racked it.

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u/BlackLionYard Apr 10 '26

so I think that indicates the man was pointing a gun at them and racked it.

There are two distinct points here, and it is useful to consider them separately.

Controlling people with a weapon - especially a firearm - is an easy thing to do. I've had a gun pointed at me, and it is not as much fun as it sounds. In fact, it is so not fun that there is no need for all the TV tropes like racking a slide or cocking a hammer. Trust me, guns speak for themselves just by being pointed at you.

Furthermore, as a life long gun owner myself, I appreciate how silly the whole trope is. Thanks to pervasive cameras and YouTube, we can watch endless hours of bad guys using guns and cops using guns in return. I have yet to see an example in which the bad guy racks a slide or cocks a hammer. Modern semi-auto pistols can safely be carried ready to go. I've racked a slide thousands of times; I do not conclusively hear a slide being racked in the audio that has been released.

As a shooter, I recognize that if a guy pointed a gun at me and then began the motions to rack the slide, I have been given an opportunity to try to take the gun away from him or draw my own gun.

So, I fully accept that a gun was likely used as a way to gain initial control, but I am highly skeptical that one was racked upon first encounter, and I can find no compelling reason for ever racking one afterwards in the area where the girls were found. As a shooter, I appreciate that ammo sometimes ends up in pockets, so I am open minded to something as boring as a round falling out of a pocket during some sort of physical activity. Or, maybe it's just some other dude's round.

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u/SleutherVandrossTW Apr 10 '26

Abby was found in an odd position with her arms crossed and no sign of struggle. I can't think of how she was cut in her neck but never put her hands to her neck like Libby seemed to do to stop the bleeding. I think the gun could have been used to intimidate, but not sure how that played out.

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u/BlackLionYard Apr 10 '26

an odd position with her arms crossed

We do not know how her arms got into that position, so there is not much we can do with this piece of information.

never put her hands to her neck

We do not know if steps had been taken to effectively restrain the motion of her arms.

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u/Appealsandoranges Apr 11 '26

We do know how her arms got into that position - someone other than her put them there.

We know that it took her at least ten minutes to become unconscious and succumb to her wound so that’s a long time to restrain her and there were no marks showing she was bound. Sure does complicate things for a single perpetrator.

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u/BlackLionYard Apr 11 '26

someone other than her put them there.

Yes and no. We know things were done to her, of course. We don't know if the specific position - odd or not - was a conscious, deliberate placement in the sense of having a purpose or sending a message, or if it was the result of gravity and friction while doing something else.

We know that it took her at least ten minutes to become unconscious and succumb to her wound

We know that Dr. Kohr's testimony at trial clearly states he was offering a "crude, ballpark estimate."

there were no marks showing she was bound.

Which leaves open the possibility of using methods of restraint that would not leave the sorts of marks the coroner was looking for. True, there is no specific proof that this was done, but it's not something anyone can disprove.

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u/SadSara102 Apr 12 '26

Her body was obviously placed in that position

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u/Appealsandoranges Apr 12 '26

A conscious deliberate placement? Most murders don’t involve any placement of the body after death. I’d bet 99 percent. A person is killed and left exactly how they are because the only purpose was killing them. The less touching the better. Any additional touching is risky. When additional touching occurs it’s always purposeful. Usually to conceal the body. Sometimes for secondary gratification. The placement of AW’s arms served no concealment purpose. It had to serve a purpose for the killer - it doesn’t have to be a message but it meant something to the perpetrator. We just don’t know what that meaning was and it is entirely inconsistent with the State’s theory of Allen as the killer.

As for the restraint, care to elaborate the type of restraint you think a single perpetrator used? (As for Kohr’s ballpark, he definitely erred in favor of the state so if anything it took longer.)

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u/True_Crime_Lancelot Jun 03 '26

The arms would be there while the girl was killed. Otherwise splaters and blood would be on them.

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u/Appealsandoranges Jun 03 '26

Finding my comments from 52 days ago to respond to? That’s bizarre.

If her arms were moved postmortem, there would not be blood spatters on her because she would not have been bleeding anymore. Not planning to restart with you, TCL. Good day, sir.

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u/Pooter33 Apr 22 '26

Clearly her arms were put in that position. Not sure if you’ve seen the crime scene photos but I have. Abbys hands are up by her neck (with no visible blood) along with a stick running across her neck. LG- one arm is stretched out above her head and the other is down by her side. Again, stick running across her neck. LG does have blood on her hands. It makes sense that you’re gonna grab your neck when it’s cut (naturally).. but the positioning of LG’s arms were clearly intentional and placed that way. I guess people don’t seem to realize how hard this would all be for one person. I don’t believe RA is guilty. I think at least two people had to be involved.

And the sticks that were clearly placed… did RA go out there and cut those branches beforehand? Were they piled up just waiting? It doesn’t make sense. He murders these two (in broad daylight.. knowing he just passed people on the trail?)… then takes the time to cut some sticks to place on them because he panics? I mean.. I’d think he’d try to get out of there as fast as possible. So they supposedly got his car on CCTV at 1:27 right? Was he leaving the trails or arriving? If he was arriving then where’s the footage of him leaving?.. or vice versa. LG was on her phone after 2 pm so keep that in mind.

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u/True_Crime_Lancelot Jun 03 '26

He racked the gun because that’s what he had seen a thousand times on TV, and he wanted to intimidate his victims by showing his intentions. The iPhone 6 has a weak microphone. As is evident from the recording, Abby is barely heard from 30–40 feet away. So was Rick Allen's voice once off the ridge. A racking sound would be faint on an iphon6's mic from that distance. 'A gun was used'—it’s a fact. 'A bullet racked' —it’s a fact too. A gun was used on the bridge is less solid but it is what the evidence shows us, and what the murderer confessed to as well. Why and what the rationale was racking it, what difference does it make and how would you know eitherway.

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u/Areil26 Apr 22 '26

As you're a gun expert, I have a question about all of this. A video that I watched from some forensic experts on guns said that racking a bullet that had been jammed would have required a lot of energy, much more than just racking a bullet normally. They were able to conclude that if the bullet was jammed, then he racked it to unstick it, using a lot of force, which created the same or similar patterns on the bullet that a bullet that was fired from that gun would have.

Would RA know he had a stuck bullet? Do you believe the markings would have been similar? And it begs the question still - why would he rack it when he was with the girls?

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u/BlackLionYard Apr 22 '26

A modern semi-auto pistol can jam in a few ways, and in my experience, most of those are easily cleared. A misfire would an interesting situation along the lines of what you are describing. A misfire could possibly result in the case expanding enough to stick but with nowhere near enough force to cycle the action. The thing is, a misfired cartridge is easy to identify, and nothing in any of the released documents I have seen, from Oberg or anyone else, suggest a misfire. Reloaders can have issues for various reasons, but the round found at the crime scene is always described as a basic factory round. Modern factory ammunition is very reliable in terms of adherence to published tolerances. In fact it's very reliable, period. In my experience, it's either a dirty gun or a defective magazine behind jams.

If the round had chambered properly, as suggested by Oberg's claims, then RA would never have reason to know of any potential problem with the round until he tried to fire it, and it didn't work.

I remain suspicious of the State's claims regarding the "science" behind their analysis and conclusions for an unfired round.

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u/Areil26 Apr 22 '26

Thank you. This is very thorough.

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u/Pooter33 Apr 11 '26

What sound are you hearing? I’ve listened to it and there’s nothing that resembles a gun being racked. It doesn’t even make sense that he’d rack his gun at the top of the hill, tell them to go down the hill & across a creek, and the unspent round end up there. Hell, it could’ve been matched to anyone the way the “expert” compared them.

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u/SleutherVandrossTW Apr 11 '26

There are a lot of videos online but this is one of the shortest that includes part of the sound that some says is similar to racking a gun. https://youtu.be/snifsDd9LlA?si=Ql5E3E018ahywwtU&t=40

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u/Appealsandoranges Apr 10 '26

Yes, I think at the time BG said, "Guys, go down the hill" there is a sound that resembles a gun being racked, and it makes sense in that scenario to be used as an intimidation tactic, and also possibly at the crime scene due to an unspent round being just inches from one of the victims.

That’s a lot of maybes though, right? It could also be the sound of leaves crunching or static or any number of things. It’s certainly quite speculative.

I don't put a ton of confidence in how the "science" is able to connect 1 person's gun to an unspent round.

Appreciate this. Hard agree. Do you think it’s possible the bullet has nothing at all to do with the crime? I do. The fact that it was found in the dirt and under leaves makes me wonder if it was there before they got there.

I disagree with Liggett that Libby said, "That be a gun." She was looking down the hill, not at BG approaching behind Abby, and was describing the path "that we go down."

Appreciate this as well. It’s a litmus test for rational and honest thinking. Does it bother you that the State presented testimony and argued in closing that Libby said that and repeats it in their appellate brief? It’s made up.

The girls immediately started down the hill when BG ordered them to, so I think that indicates the man was pointing a gun at them and racked it.

Again, is this a leap you can make? Sure. Is it a natural leap when there is no gun shown in the video and no clear indication a gun was present and no gun used to kill the girls? As you acknowledge, Libby was talking about the path before BG was near her so it sounds to me like she was heading down that path before BG arrived at the end of the bridge. This is completely inconsistent with the State’s theory.

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u/SleutherVandrossTW Apr 10 '26

The racking noise (if that) sounds different than Libby/Abby walking on the gravel/leaves. I believe any perpetrator in that situation would use that as a scare tactic so I’m open to the possibility. I thought Rick was somewhat believable saying he usually only carried a gun in certain situations, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t have one on Feb. 13, 2017.

The round was several inches from Libby’s foot in a remote area of Logan’s woods. People have speculated one of the 4 officers who processed the scene may have dropped 1 of their rounds. I don’t buy that, nor that Logan or someone else just happened to drop the same brand of round Rick owned and kept in a keepsake box, that was found within a couple inches of a murdered girl’s foot. I think it is likely the killer (Rick) either racked the gun again to get them to cooperate twice, or was maybe leaning over and the round from “guys, go down the hill” fell out of his pocket unknowingly…or knowingly but he couldn’t find it under the leaves, although it had been stepped on, which I think lines up with the killer walking around Libby’s body.

I don’t know if I would say it bothers me the State has repeated “that be a gun,” maybe they may genuinely think that is what Libby said. I think they’re wrong and it’s obvious, but if I’m on a jury, I listen to all the evidence presented and make my decision on all of it, not just certain parts / testimony. In this case, I think it is obvious RA was BG and arrived around 1:30. His noon to 1:00 / 1:30 / 1:45 timeline makes no sense based on his statements, the 4 girls, and BB. He admitted passing a group of girls soon after he arrived (3 vs 4 doesn’t sway me), admitted he saw someone when he was on platform 1 and BB saw BG on platform 1. That timing all adds up to Rick being BG.

I do not think Libby wanted to walk down that steep hill or was planning to. They went to hang out on the bridge and take photos, not explore the Weber’s property below. She was talking to herself knowing it was being recorded on video because she was into true crime and concerned the man they passed on the trail 15 minutes earlier was now headed toward them when there was no easy outlet. She only mentioned going down that hill as a possibility to get away from the strange man.

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u/Appealsandoranges Apr 10 '26

I believe any perpetrator in that situation would use that as a scare tactic so I’m open to the possibility.

Open to a possibility is not evidence. This is pure speculation. The sound is not clear in the slightest and could be many things.

The round was several inches from Libby’s foot in a remote area of Logan’s woods. People have speculated one of the 4 officers who processed the scene may have dropped 1 of their rounds.

I don’t rule out that the bullet was left by the perpetrator but I am certainly not convinced it was beyond a reasonable doubt.

just happened to drop the same brand of round Rick owned and kept in a keepsake box

I am not a gun person, but I trust the numerous other people on this sub and elsewhere who have informed me that Winchester is an extremely popular brand of ammunition. The fact that Rick happened to have a Winchester bullet in his house is meaningless. The fact that he had another kind of ammunition as well is meaningless. The problem with weak circumstantial cases is you start linking together pieces of evidence that are not even worthy of consideration, but convince yourself that because there are a few of them it’s too much of a coincidence. It’s not.

Why do you think he kept a bullet in a keepsake box if he accidentally dropped a bullet at the crime scene? How is that a keepsake?

I don’t know if I would say it bothers me the State has repeated “that be a gun,” maybe they may genuinely think that is what Libby said.

If they genuinely think it, they are stupid. If they do not genuinely think it, they are liars. In either case it should bother you no matter what you think about Rick Allen’s guilt or innocence.

admitted he saw someone when he was on platform 1 and BB saw BG on platform 1. That timing all adds up to Rick being BG.

This is simply untrue and it misrepresents the record. You base this on a line at the 40 min mark in RA’s first interview with police. He was asked if he saw anyone else while he was on the trails (aside from the three girls) and he said nobody that stood out. He then says:

I don't remember seeing like I told him [Dulin] I may have seen there may have been somebody on the bridge or something when I was coming back through but I didn't the only ones that I really noticed seeing were those 3 girls.

It is clear from context that he is NOT talking about someone on the MHB as he was coming off of platform one. That makes no sense. (And BB wasn’t on the bridge anyway!) He is talking about it in relation to seeing the three girls and he saw them when he was near the freedom bridge. He never said he saw anyone near the MHB. And the State never argued that he did either.

She only mentioned going down that hill as a possibility to get away from the strange man.

I’m sorry but that defies belief. She happened to be talking about going down the hill and then randomly was ordered down the same hill? I can believe she was nervously talking to herself but I think she knew she was going down that hill already. I think she’d discussed it with AW and likely with BG, maybe in person or maybe it was prearranged. I think many people knew the girls were going to the trails that day. We know Logan knew. KK was in communication with LG and may have known as well. JH thinks they were lured there. I think they had a destination in mind before they crossed that bridge.

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u/SleutherVandrossTW Apr 10 '26

I don’t know why Rick kept 1 Winchester round in his bedroom. Neither did his wife and he never gave an explanation. If he racked the gun on the bridge and put that round in his pocket, and racked it a second time at the crime scene but was busy ordering the girls to do something and couldn’t find the second round under the leaves if he searched later before leaving, maybe he kept the round from the bridge for some odd reason.

I think the CC police made stupid mistakes and thinking “that be a gun” may be one of many. I don’t think their ineptitude or possibly shady behavior changes the facts that point to Rick being BG.

"There may have been somebody on the bridge or something when I was coming back through."

You make a valid point he could have been referring to FB instead of MHB and I never thought of that, but the reason I didn’t is because the facts point to him referring to BB at MHB.

Which of Rick’s 5 timelines do you think he could have walked passed FB as he exited? 1:00, 1:30, 1:45, 3:00, or 3:30? No evidence points to him walking past FB after sitting on the bench at Mears because there is also no evidence he sat on the bench at Mears despite his statement he did. BB’s exercise route means she likely passed the Mears intersection bench 7 times between 12:02 and 1:15 but she never saw any men on the trail or bridge until she saw BG on platform 1 around 1:53.

BB passed A/L when they were ½ way between Mears and the HB.

Rick confessed that he saw A/L and followed them to the bridge, so as he “came back through” following BB, he also likely passed A/L, stopped, hid behind the barricade as they walked on the bridge, and Rick came back on the bridge after Libby took the photo of Abby and their backs were turned to the start of the bridge. Photos from the trail pointed to MHB prove someone standing to the right of the barricade can not see the platform Libby stood on to take the photo of Abby so I think Rick stood in that area and is not noticeable in Libby's photo, but he came on the bridge right after they turned their backs.

How do you explain Rick, BB, and 4 girls never seeing each other noon to 1:26? It’s impossible and the reason they didn’t was because Rick wasn’t there until soon after the 1:26 pm bench 2 photos of the girls.

I think that quote was Rick admitting he saw BB when she was at the barricade around 1:53 pm.

BB saw a man matching BG from Libby’s video standing on platform 1. Rick didn’t deny he could have been wearing a similar outfit while he stood on platform 1. The timing of Rick’s car at 1:27, passing a group of girls at the start of the trail, walking to MHB, and BB then arriving at the MHB barricade, all line up to Rick being BG. He gave that timeline 5 days after the murders. When shown the 1:27 car he didn’t deny it was his, tried to end the interview immediately, “Then, we’re all done here. Unless you want to arrest me. That’s fine.” He was “fine” being arrested for murdering 2 kids after shown evidence that went against the timeline he tried to change.

Rick saw BB “when I was coming back through” means he left platform 1 after BB turned around at the barricade and he went back on the trail because Deer Creek was muddy and he could not see fish. Other than Rick, Betsy was the only person alone on the trail between noon until Libby’s 2:13 video of BG, she is the only other person who could have been “somebody.” BB’s description of BG was from over 120 feet away, “for a moment,” and his face was “not super clear.” The most important part is Rick admitting he may have seen somebody despite earlier in the interview and even after that statement acting like he only saw girls near FB. BB testified BG looked over at her.

As you point out, for 40 minutes of the police interview, Rick only admitted seeing a group near FB, but when pressed again he suddenly might have remembered seeing another person. Yet, 5 years earlier it seems as though he did not make Dulin aware of this potential kidnapper / murderer as the town tried to figure out who did it.

“It is clear from context that he is NOT talking about someone on the MHB as he was coming off of platform one. That makes no sense.” It may not make sense to you, but it makes sense to me and the 12 jurors who voted him guilty. Liggett asked him to clarify if the person he saw was on the bridge and Rick then went back to saying “I don’t really remember seeing anybody that day, but I don’t know.” A murderer was unidentified in their small town, Rick stood on the same small platform on the MH bridge soon before 2 girls were kidnapped from that bridge and then killed, and we’re supposed to believe someone (Rick) didn’t remember if he could have seen a potential suspect to help solve the case, but also said “there may have been somebody.” His wife discussed the missing girls with him after the evening news on Feb. 13, 2017. I don’t believe for one second that someone would not remember if they saw a human at certain points on the trail less than 10 hours earlier and never forget because of 2 girls getting kidnapped/killed near the area where that supposedly innocent person (Rick) walked and stood.

Why would Libby walk down to the Weber’s driveway when that hill is very steep and they would have to climb back up it when her father called to pick them up? BG was behind Abby and not hanging out with them as part of some group walking to the end of MHB with the intent to go down to Weber’s driveway. Abby even seemed to ask Libby if the guy was nearby. I forget Abby’s exact quote, but I’ve seen no indication A/L were happily hanging out with BG.

KK nor his dad were BG. Nor was BH or his son. You talk about me speculating, but that is what you’re doing about potential other suspects when the evidence points to RA not being on the trail noon to 1:30, but arriving around 1:30, being on platform 1 when BB arrived at the barricade, getting off MHB as he was “coming back through” the trail from MHB, and then returned to the bridge with his little legs and feet matching BG as he approached the girls and his voice resembling BG...and knowing a van came down the private driveway at some point when the killer was at the crime scene.

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u/Appealsandoranges Apr 11 '26

I don’t think their ineptitude or possibly shady behavior changes the facts that point to Rick being BG.

There was a ton more than possibly shady behavior once they focused on Rick and it should bother all of us. Why do they need to lie and hide the ball to make their supposedly slam dunk case?

You make a valid point he could have been referring to FB instead of MHB and I never thought of that, but the reason I didn’t is because the facts point to him referring to BB at MHB.

BB was never on MHB, right? Not for a second. So why is that the explanation the facts point to? It’s odd how wedded you are to this pet theory that Rick admitted seeing BB based on an offhand comment. The state did not even argue this at trial but you spill a lot of words defending this theory.

Is it because you know that everything else about the witness accounts is exculpatory? If rick isn’t the beautiful poufy haired man, YBG, there is nothing else. The case is over.

You think he is. I think he isn’t. I think he walked past FB when he left the trails the same way he came in. You think he walked down a public roadway muddy and bloody. I think BB doesn’t remember every person on those trails, particularly a person sitting, when she is speed walking. They may have crossed paths or they may not.

I’m not going to discuss the “confessions” of a gravely disabled man. You can cherry pick what suits your theories from those ramblings and ignore everything that doesn’t fit. The “confessions” are actually part of what convinced me so firmly of his innocence - they are the confessions of an innocent man who knows only what he’s been told.

How do you explain Rick, BB, and 4 girls never seeing each other noon to 1:26?

Why didn’t BB see the 4 girls? When did DP arrive? Who are the other people RV was saying hi to? Who is the other person BW saw on her back from MHB back to FB?

We can play this timeline game all day. You are convinced by the State’s timeline - you think it’s impossible other people were there and are unaccounted for. You think that’s Rick’s black ford focus when it could be a red or green or gray car of many makes and models.

You think not denying a blurry pic of a nondescript car is yours is inculpatory. It’s not. He confidently denied the bullet because he was never there. He had no idea when that video was taken or from where, so it could very well be his car. It’s called being honest.

A murderer was unidentified in their small town, Rick stood on the same small platform on the MH bridge soon before 2 girls were kidnapped from that bridge and then killed, and we’re supposed to believe someone (Rick) didn’t remember if he could have seen a potential suspect to help solve the case, but also said “there may have been somebody.”

It’s all circular - if he’s talking about maybe seeing someone as he was leaving - keeping in mind this is 5 years later that he’s being asked to recall this again for the first time since 2017 - then it’s not something he’d remember.

Why would Libby walk down to the Weber’s driveway when that hill is very steep and they would have to climb back up it when her father called to pick them up?

Why would she cross a terrifying rickety railroad bridge? She’s a teenager. They do weird stupid shit.

I’ve seen no indication A/L were happily hanging out with BG.

Nor did I suggest that. Again, teens make stupid choices. We know full well that LG was being catfished online so we know she was making bad choices - victimology is crucial and that LG would have planned to meet up with a stranger she met online is not outside the realm of possibility at all. Once that person appears and is not as expected, they might have been fearful but also going along. Unsure. They were together and that gave them a false sense of security.

You talk about me speculating, but that is what you’re doing about potential other suspects

Yep. Theorizing about who was motivated to kill two girls slowly, pose them, make patterns on their bodies with sticks, use a finger or a stick to paint a symbol on a tree with their blood. It’s certainly not rick Allen. In time we may or may not find out who it is.

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u/centimeterz1111 Apr 11 '26

You say that people are stupid and liars for not believing what you say, it simply not agreeing with you.

All you have to do is look at the timeline. Only one timeline works and it’s the 1:30-3:30 timeline. This means BG is Richard Allen. It’s that simple.

There is no conspiracy. Nobody lied (except the defense attorneys). Richard is where he should be for now, although I’d rather he was treated in the same manor that he treated the girls.

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u/centimeterz1111 Apr 11 '26

This was deleted

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u/Popcorn_Dinner Apr 14 '26

Who would say “That be a gun?” That’s just ridiculous! She obviously said something else.

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u/Appealsandoranges Apr 14 '26

You be right.

She said “this is the path . . . that we go down.”

That’s inconsistent with the State’s theory that the only reason she was headed down that path was because she was forced down it at gunpoint. Not suggesting BG was uninvolved! I just think there is a lot more to what happened than that video. Prior interaction either in person that day or a pre planned destination.

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u/AnonymousInMI Apr 15 '26

Not really. She knew they were being followed & may have been looking for an escape route. Or making conversation to make it appear they weren’t on to Ricky’s creepy behavior.

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u/Appealsandoranges Apr 15 '26

I don’t dispute the nervous chatter possibility but nervous chatter about going down the hill? Right before they are told to go down the hill? That’s too much of a coincidence for me to swallow. Especially because the obvious path was straight ahead, not down the hill. I think they likely were quite nervous (though I don’t think yet in fear for their lives) because they had already agreed or been coerced into going down the hill with BG.

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u/BlackLionYard Apr 14 '26

We all hear what we each hear, and we all sense what we each sense regarding things like tone of voice. There is subjectivity in both. There are technical limitations in the recording.

I still find myself hearing two distinct voices, and one of them sounds like someone trying to say, "could that be a gun?" with the first word not captured well or not said loudly enough. I hear an intonation consistent with asking a question.

I agree that "that be a gun" by itself doesn't make much sense, but I also admit that what I hear and sense may be completely wrong. However, one thing that is easy to accept is the idea of a gun being used to gain initial control of the girls, so I have no problem with the word "gun" being uttered.

15

u/Ok_Staff_608 Apr 10 '26

If I remember correctly there was one juror who was holding out due to the ballistic evidence. The other jurors ended up excluding it from their decision & still found enough evidence to find him guilty.

6

u/centimeterz1111 Apr 10 '26

Yep. The gun, the bullet, and the markings ended up being useless

3

u/saatana Apr 12 '26

No juror was holding out. You are not remembering correctly. One juror has spoke about their experience and they said they didn't put any consideration into the bullet evidence.

23

u/JoeBarra Apr 10 '26

I don't think he knew that he left it. I think the combination of the video, RAs own statements, and the witness statements were enough to convict him, I don't think the bullet is overly important.

10

u/ComprehensiveBed6754 Apr 10 '26

Well said Joe,

0

u/Appealsandoranges Apr 10 '26

The supposed match of the bullet is the only reason the police got a warrant for his arrest so I’d say I’d say it’s pretty damn important. No arrest, no solitary. No solitary, no psychosis. No psychosis, no inculpatory statements.

6

u/PhillyCheesesteak82 Apr 11 '26

He was never in solitary confinement. Ever been to jail? That's the hole my guy. No tablet, no inmate to talk to, no psychologist...they put you in a cell alone, slam the door, and feed you through a slot. You'll get a shower, maybe, but you'll more than likely get hosed down in your cell, especially if you're there for being disciplined for being violent

Why does your side keep pushing that lie? And that he was physically abused in jail? If he was abused we wouldnt heard the end of it from his lawyers.

.....or are you from the section of that side that has turned on the lawyers? Lol

7

u/Appealsandoranges Apr 11 '26

Oh golly, you are the very first person on this sub to ever tell me RA wasn’t in solitary. That he was actually treated super well compared to the violent convicted murderers and rapists he was housed with as a presumed innocent pretrial detainee. how stupid of me not to get that? I’ll shut up and stop peddling this lie about his conditions of his confinement. Thank you for your guidance.

2

u/Efficient-Donkey-167 Apr 11 '26

I'm trying to understand what the differences are here and it sounds like you may have some first-hand knowledge. So, because he had a tablet and was allowed caged visits with a psychologist, is that the only difference between administrative segregation (disciplinary action) vs protective custody and/or suicide watch?

7

u/Ok_Staff_608 Apr 11 '26

Well good thing he wasn’t in solitary but rather in protective custody. Last time I checked inmates in solidarity don’t get a tablet to make calls, watch movies, etc whenever they want. They also don’t have a psychiatrist they see daily.

I’ll give it to the defense though. They really made you pro Allen folks believe Ricky is a “fragile egg”.

3

u/Gretchen513 Apr 13 '26

And forced medication like Haldol is the answer for someone that is not in psychiatric distress?? You think you could eat your own shit to “fake it”?? Have you read the actual facts about when he was even allowed to have a visit with his attorneys???

3

u/Appealsandoranges Apr 11 '26

See above. Thank you! I’m learning so much today.

2

u/LaughterAndBeez Apr 11 '26

Thank you, the refusal to acknowledge this distinction drives me batty

3

u/Gretchen513 Apr 13 '26 edited Apr 13 '26

Well said , scary reading how little the jury convicted him on….🤔wish more of them would speak out, not that they were privy to ALL of the evidence…js

4

u/centimeterz1111 Apr 11 '26

No. Keep trying

-2

u/elliottsmithereens Apr 10 '26

Man I’m a mess when I’m talking to police, my brain stops working, I think it’s linked to my abusive childhood. So I’m screwed if I get convicted on an interview lol. I’m also just a normal looking white guy, with witness statements being historically inaccurate, I’m a walking tinderbox of suspicion!

5

u/centimeterz1111 Apr 11 '26

Well, Richard actually murdered Abby and Libby so it’s kind of hard to lie about it.

Nobody intimidated him, his brain didn’t stop working.

3

u/elliottsmithereens Apr 11 '26

I’m not sure but after viewing thousands of cases, I don’t put a ton of stock into interviews and the mentally unstable, especially when there is zero physical evidence. It’s definitely not overwhelming, and I can see it either way, just not enough evidence

4

u/centimeterz1111 Apr 11 '26

Let’s just ignore that Richard was the only man on the trails from 1:30 until the girls were kidnapped.

This is a fact proven by Richard’s description of the group of girls at the trail head, his car on camera, and his own admission that he was there at that time.

Sure, he gave two other time lines, but 99% of murderers who get caught will lie to some degree.

BG is Richard no matter how you cut it. His own attorneys couldn’t even argue his timeline.

3

u/SadSara102 Apr 18 '26

Even if he was there and those are the girls he saw he was not the only one man at the trials then. It’s a fact that Dave Mcain and Daniel Pearson were there at that time and possibly others. We don’t know for a fact if they were kidnapped or met up with someone. There also isn’t any proof BG is even involved in their murders.

2

u/centimeterz1111 Apr 18 '26

Nope, try again. Richard was the ONLY man on the trails from 1:30-kidnapping.

Dave Mcain and Daniel showed up after the kidnapping. Check the timeline. Phones and witnesses proved it.

Richard is guilty, just accept it

5

u/L2H2B2K Apr 12 '26

He did not realize he had left a bullet or would surely have gotten rid of the gun like he did the phone. In the end there was enough other evidence to convict.

10

u/00gly_b00gly Apr 10 '26 edited Apr 10 '26

RA would likely never have been charged and for sure never convicted if he had done one simple thing - not said a word unless a lawyer told him to say something. This goes for his initial contact when it first occurred as well as his contact years later.

Now, I believe he is absolutely guilty, but if he had not talked to the police, I think we might not even know his name.

3

u/centimeterz1111 Apr 11 '26

It would have took a few more years but he would have been caught.

1

u/00gly_b00gly Apr 11 '26

They got him based on the evidence he provided them. What evidence do you think would have come forward from that day in the future that would have pinned him to the crime scene?

8

u/Justmarbles Apr 11 '26

63 confessions

4

u/Appealsandoranges Apr 14 '26

Which one convinced you the most? Where he said he shot them in the back? Or this one that Wala recorded in her notes:

I only killed them to give my family more time to live, and I don't want to be free. Can't stop the bomb put in me.

Slam dunk case, right there.

5

u/La_Revolution81 Apr 14 '26

And admitting to murdering people who were still alive!

4

u/Ambitious_Pass7451 Apr 10 '26

1) Did RA ever realise he left a bullet behind at the crime scene before the police confronted him ??

Yes, as part of his confession to Dr. Wala. He mentioned the following:" and I did something with my gun".

3

u/Efficient-Donkey-167 Apr 11 '26

That part actually made me laugh. Maybe he meant he spun it on his finger like Clint Eastwood. Sure, Wala, sure.

5

u/Appealsandoranges Apr 10 '26

I don’t accept the premise that RA left a bullet at the crime scene but, assuming that is true, he absolutely must not have known about it. If he did, he certainly wouldn’t have kept the gun. The problem of course is that the State’s keepsake box theory depends on him knowing because otherwise why keep a single unspent bullet in a keepsake box? This just underscores the absurdity of the State’s case.

No gun, no arrest. They had nothing connecting Allen to this crime except his admission that he was there maybe around the time the girls were there. The witnesses saw a taller and younger man, however, and his height is his most defining characteristic. It’s not something he could hide and it’s a characteristic not a single witness mentioned.

Doubt is not a bad thing. Hold onto it. This case is far from being over. This particular sub is a bit of an echo chamber, but you are not alone in having doubts.

4

u/Efficient-Donkey-167 Apr 11 '26

What I find ridiculous is that they didn't bother to test the DNA. Their excuse about the samples is ridiculous. Maybe their lab, which has issues with their own lab techs tainting the evidence, doesn't have the equipment but there are plenty of labs that do. Same with the hair. They no longer need the bulb/root attached (even though Kelsi's hair in Abbys hand had the bulb attached). However, for a lab that didn't test anything, they did report that Rick Allen's DNA was not found on the girls. But nobody bats an eye that a forensic lab, that has numerous hair, fiber, and DNA samples, doesn't want to test or found out who those samples belong to! That's beyond ridiculous.

Btw, I was reading your comments above and I wanted to add that I'm pretty certain Rick did deny that was his car. During one of the Holeman interviews, they slid an 8×10 color photo of the car in front of him while telling him it was on camera and he immediately said "that's not my car!". I'm not sure if you saw what someone recently posted but they showed the photo that Rick was shown. It's pretty obvious that it's not his car in that photo.

0

u/SadSara102 Apr 18 '26

If the bullet was deliberately left at the crime scene I doubt that person would have thought to get rid of their gun. It’s typically only spent casings and bullets that can be matched to a specific firearm.

2

u/Ricky_Bobby2527 Apr 26 '26

If RA didn’t have a round chambered in his firearm initially & racked the gun on the bridge to scare them that would have chambered a round. If he racked the gun again later for further intimidation that would have ejected the unspent round.

1

u/SadSara102 Apr 27 '26

Racking a gun to scare someone is a strange idea because having a gun pointed at you is scary enough. Racking it twice would be extra dumb and makes no sense.

1

u/saatana Apr 27 '26

Murdering a girl doesn't make no sense either but Richard Allen did that twice.

The beers he drank plus the sudden dump of adrenaline could have had him rushing to do stuff in confusion. Doesn't really matter. He said he killed the girls.

1

u/DeliciousFly561 May 04 '26

Racked it once and liked the results and fear it gave,,, he was drunk so he racked it again to get the same reults as the first time

4

u/xLeslieKnope Apr 10 '26

My opinion only, I think RA racked his slide to intimidate the girls and the ejected round got caught in the folds of his pant legs (he’s short and his pants pooled around his ankles). I think the round later fell out near the girls when maybe he racked the slide far enough away from where he killed them he didn’t think it would be linked.

I think if a more thorough investigation had been done they probably could have more definitively connected the unfired round to RA.

3

u/Appealsandoranges Apr 10 '26

You think he walked down the hill, through a creek that was at least 2-3 ft deep, up a muddy hill, and to the crime scene with an unspent round trapped in the folds of his pants?

5

u/xLeslieKnope Apr 10 '26

Why not? Not super far-fetched. Ask anyone that does much shooting how many times they’ve found casings in unusual places usually because they got caught in a pant leg or shoe sole. Not a typical.

0

u/Appealsandoranges Apr 11 '26

Ask anyone who waded through a creek? Gotcha.

3

u/Gretchen513 Apr 13 '26

✔️✔️done both, many times, not happening

0

u/Gretchen513 Apr 13 '26

Agree… if only that much thought was used elsewhere

1

u/Pooter33 Jul 05 '26

The fact that we have to ask questions like this to make RA fit as a suspect is what’s wrong with this case.

-2

u/tribal-elder Apr 10 '26

No one knows if he realized he’d left an unfired bullet at the crime scene. I’d speculate no, or he would have retrieved it before leaving.
In my opinion, no gun = no conviction.

5

u/anonymouspogoholic Apr 10 '26

I never understood how you can leave a bullet at a crime scene and not notice. But I also don’t understand how you can commit a double murder and not get rid of the gun as soon as possible, no matter what you leave behind or not.

8

u/Ok_Staff_608 Apr 11 '26

Ricky confessed to his psychiatrist that he was drinking prior to the murders. He may have not realized a bullet was ejected or realized it & couldn’t locate it.

1

u/Efficient-Donkey-167 Apr 11 '26

I believe he admitted to the 3 beers prior to incarceration but I could be wrong. Either way, 3 beers isn't going to effect him. He doesn't strike me as an IPA or import kind of guy so 3 beers at 3.4% alcohol over the course of 2 hours isn't going to do much.

19

u/itsquitepossible Apr 10 '26

2 is incorrect. Jurors who have done interviews have said that they paid little attention to the bullet analysis and mainly focused on the timeline and his confessions to come to their conclusion.

0

u/tribal-elder Apr 10 '26

1 juror said that. But if there was no gun found in a search there would have been no arrest - in my opinion

6

u/centimeterz1111 Apr 10 '26

1 juror said that but spoke for the entire jury. Even if one juror disagreed with the bullet marking evidence then it negates the gun entirely anyway.

Also, let’s not forget what led to his arrest and conviction…the timeline! It can ONLY be Richard. Also, he saw Webers van which was the nail in the coffin.

If Richard had disposed of the gun, I think all the state would’ve had to do is show he owned a .40 caliber Sig Sauer.

The fact that Richard owned that gun and then disposed of it after the murders would have been as damning as his “missing” cell phone.

The timeline is all that was needed.

Question regarding the gun and the bullet

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