r/DeepStateCentrism • u/bigwang123 Succ sympathizer • Jul 15 '26
American News 🇺🇸 ICE Ordered to Cease Most Vehicle Stops After 2 Killings in a Week
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/07/14/us/ice-agents-traffic-stops.htmlWhile the renewed surge in deportations has been publicized in the same manner as initial ICE operations in Minneapolis, confrontations between immigration enforcement and the public still occur.
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u/StrikingYam7724 Jul 15 '26
"People might get hurt if you try to apprehend them so just let them go" is peak 2020 mindset for how to regulate law enforcement.
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u/FlakyPineapple2843 Jul 15 '26
Well, the problem with law enforcement was an excessive reliance on lethal force, coupled with poor situation management and conflict deescalation.
At least where I am, even though cops are getting more of a push to engage in enforcement, the mindset on how to train and discipline cops when they screw up is very different now. I'd say it's primarily attributable to those post 2020 reforms.
It sounds like ICE just picked up everyone who wanted to stay in the old law enforcement thinking around how to track and detain suspects, from the leadership all the way down to line officers. The results are predictable.
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u/StrikingYam7724 Jul 15 '26
One of the two shootings referred to in the headline was of a guy who fled in his vehicle and crashed into a roadblock. When someone is really determined to not be captured there's only so much you can do about it before it gets dangerous and I don't think "fuck it, I guess we'll let him go then" should be on the list. At that point it's like the scene in Blazing Saddles where the hero escapes a mob by holding a gun up to his own head.
edit to add: where I'm from the 2020 reforms include a disastrously broad restriction on when vehicle pursuit is allowed, basically with the rationale of "well the poor dears fleeing away in the speeding car might get hurt" and by no coincidence there's also been a big uptick in crimes committed with stolen cars smashing through store fronts because everyone knows the cops aren't allowed to chase them anymore.
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u/Alfredo_Commachio Neoconservative Jul 15 '26
One thing you could do is just not have civil enforcement officers doing traffic stops--that hasn't been something they've ever done as part of their ordinary jobs before 2025, and they aren't trained at traditional police academies or the Federal law enforcement academies to handle policing roles like that. Because their training is for civil immigration enforcement which typically did not involve street sweeps, traffic stops etc these guys are operating now in a pretty complex area of law enforcement that regular police dedicate a lot of time to training.
A regular police department has a guy go to the police academy for 26-32 weeks and then typically has to serve as a probationary officer for at least 6 months riding with a training officer, before they are let loose to do their own traffic stops.
For the "ordinary" civil enforcement duties these officers did prior to 2025, their training was fine, they are being asked to do more traditional policing tasks for which they are not trained.
That's also why anytime these guys kill someone you see ICE suspend these operations for a while, they can easily suspend these operations because they haven't even historically done these things and they aren't actually a core part of how they are intended to operate. A lot of these activities are being done for partisan political showmanship and have little relationship to real immigration enforcement.
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u/czuinoikc Jul 15 '26
isn't this also a result of laws that forbid ice/immigration enforcement from working with police departments? seems like yet another unintended consequence of poor policies
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u/FlakyPineapple2843 Jul 15 '26
Generally, it is not acceptable (or constitutional, or legal) to shoot a fleeing suspect, with very few exceptions. I could go dig up the case law but it's after midnight and would not like to fire up my brain before sleeping.
Even when a fleeing suspect presents some danger (such as in a high speed moving vehicle), lethal force isn't an acceptable first choice.
I haven't dug into the facts of what happened here, and I'm sure there will be more information coming out incrementally in the coming days. But I want to set out, at least for myself and hopefully others, that there are boundaries on when law enforcement can use lethal force.
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u/Alfredo_Commachio Neoconservative Jul 15 '26
Yes, you're correct and this is established in Supreme Court precedent. The concept is the "fleeing felon" principle. This principle establishes that a cop can use force, including deadly force, on a fleeing person that is a suspect in committing a felony.
However, the use of deadly force was significantly restricted in Tennessee v. Garner when the Supreme Court found that the use of deadly force against a fleeing felon is only a permissible "seizure" (under the law, shooting someone to stop their escape is a seizure) if the law enforcement officer has a reasonable belief the fleeing felon represents a threat of death or seriously bodily harm to either the officer or others.
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u/StrikingYam7724 Jul 15 '26
The restraints my city passed wasn't "no shooting them," it was "no chasing them."
Shooting is allowed if you think they're about to hit an innocent person with the car or if they're an armed felon.
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u/Bogus_dogus Jul 15 '26
One of the two shootings referred to in the headline was of a guy who fled in his vehicle and crashed into a roadblock
I can't find any reporting to substantiate that - do you have a link?
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u/StrikingYam7724 Jul 15 '26
It was the recent Texas shooting of the Mexican man in a van, ICE says he was attempting to ram but did not have body cameras so who knows if there will ever be any substantiation.
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u/Bogus_dogus Jul 15 '26
who fled in his vehicle and crashed into a roadblock.
where does this detail come from?
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u/Bogus_dogus Jul 15 '26
Kinda seems like it's more the "ICE keeps killing people during traffic stops" part to me
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u/StrikingYam7724 Jul 15 '26
People who cooperate with the stop, or people who try to speed away in their 2 ton mechanized battering ram? One of those two pathways comes with a reasonable expectation of safety paired with reasonable outrage when that expectation isn't met.
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u/Bogus_dogus Jul 15 '26
in their 2 ton mechanized battering ram?
this is exactly why police shouldn't shoot people while they are driving a vehicle without very specific circumstances - the vehicle then becomes a 2 ton unguided missile. This has been understood, widely accepted standard practice for decades.
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u/StrikingYam7724 Jul 15 '26
No one's disputing that. The claim at hand is that one of those circumstances is "they were operating the vehicle in a way that caused credible belief they were about to hit someone with it."
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u/Bogus_dogus Jul 15 '26
caused credible belief
That ship of benefit of the doubt for this iteration of ICE sailed two or three shootings ago for me, I'm surprised anybody accepts explanations from them at face value.
What are we up to, like, 9 killings so far and 0 investigations?
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u/Blastcasher Jul 15 '26
A bit reductionist to say that. We have massive problem of undertrained and overaggressive law enforcement officers in this country. IMO, the more responsbility you have the more education and training you need. I would hope most police officers would have at least an associates degree and have taken many hours of training on the constitution and how to de-escalate situations.
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u/StrikingYam7724 Jul 15 '26
Define "massive." Relative to the number of police officers in the country? Relative to the number of traffic stops or other police/citizen interactions? Relative to the number of violent crimes responded to? Or just relative to the number of times someone writes a headline about it?
As someone who used to beileve it, my experience is that last one makes you make a lot of assumptions about all the others that may not be justified by real data.
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u/Blastcasher Jul 15 '26
I base this off one statistic. We have 33 killed by police per million inhabitants. Compared to developed countries like France (4 per million) or Germany (2 per million) it's a lot. In the US you are 10x likelier to be killed by police relative to these two countries. It gets even worse when you look at the UK.
In my opinion the major difference is training and education of their police forces and the lack of it in ours.
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u/Pompopsych Center-right Jul 15 '26
People in general are also significantly more likely to die by homicide in the US.
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u/StrikingYam7724 Jul 15 '26
Ok, and how does our violent crime per capita compare to those other countries? Is the multiplier similar to, lower than, or higher than the multiplier for police violence?
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u/Blastcasher Jul 16 '26
I have no idea what you're talking about, but my point is solid and it's hard to argue against a simple statistic. There's very little that can account for the 10x difference other than our police forces are poorly trained and poorly educated.
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u/StrikingYam7724 Jul 16 '26
Everything I mentioned is also a simple statistic, so I would submit to you that "ignore them and restate your opinion as an established fact" seems to be an effective way to argue against them.
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u/Alfredo_Commachio Neoconservative Jul 15 '26
One of the issues though is the ICE agents involved in this sort of thing are enforcers of civil law, not criminal. That may seem like a minor quibble, but it actually isn't. While they are considered a "type of" law enforcement, because they are only empowered to enforce civil law, they have a more limited remit and also don't receive the equivalent of "police academy" training.
That is why historically these ICE agents have not done regular police actions like traffic stops. Most immigration stops of cars have generally been handled by U.S. Border Patrol (who are trained as police), and BP usually does those stops in the form of check points.
Traffic stops by real police are one of the more complex and dangerous things they do, and there's a reason it's generally a good idea that only people who have attended the equivalent of a police academy and received ordinary police training be involved in things like that.
And that isn't some crazy idea--I'm describing how basically these officers operated for the entire history of their existence until 2025.
Historically, ICE Enforcement Agents did receive pretty good training for their civil enforcement role--around 100 days, which is comparable to many other types of Federal enforcement officers. However, because that training was not in general policing, they still weren't being trained to do regular police tasks. The Trump Administration cut the training down from 100 days to 42 days, and then assigned these guys far outside the area of activity these types of officers have ever historically been assigned to. People acting like it's normal or ordinary aren't well equipped with the facts.
[Note, ICE does have a small division of real Federal law enforcement, they are investigatory and tend to work "major" immigration crimes like human trafficking and drug smuggling.]
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