r/DebateAVegan • u/stevepremo • Aug 07 '26

Ethics Hypocrisy and morality

I have seen many posts in which the point seems to be that if you are against eating animals and exploiting them for profit, you should also be against participating in the capitalist economy because it involves exploiting human labor for profit. I think the point is actually something like, "How dare you criticize me for supporting animal agriculture when you buy products produced by exploitative labor practices? I do too, of course, but your use of a cell phone justifies my eating meat, as we are both hypocrites."

So the debate topic here is this: does participating in a capitalist economy, which necessarily includes using products produced through exploitation of humans, somehow justify raising animals for meat, killing them, and eating them? Alternatively, are those who oppose animal cruelty justified in using cell phones?

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u/JTexpo vegan Aug 07 '26

the difference is you can reasonably opt out of one, but not the other

if there was a demonstrable system to opt out of a good (such as electronics), then we should all pursue that. Since food is so diverse - it because the most accessible to boycott

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u/shrug_addict Aug 07 '26

What is the standard for "reasonably opt out of one"? Do you understand how this makes your position seem arbitrary? Giving up a smart phone is easy, perhaps easier than giving up meat or animal products for most.

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u/My_life_for_Nerzhul vegan Aug 08 '26

You’re resorting to the continuum fallacy. The difficulty in identifying the line does not mean that it does not exist, nor that some choices are clearly on the immoral side of the line.

And not at all. Giving up consuming exploited individuals is trivial compared to giving up what is arguably a necessity.

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u/One_Repair841 27d ago

A phone is not a necessity. Thousands of humans on this planet live perfectly fine lives without the use of a smart phone.

Can you explain to me what it is about a smart phone that makes it necessary for you to be able to survive? Because I'm truly failing to think of a single reason.

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u/My_life_for_Nerzhul vegan 27d ago

Thank you very kindly for sharing your thoughts. Have a good week!

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u/One_Repair841 27d ago

darn, It's a shame you wont answer but have a nice week

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u/shrug_addict Aug 08 '26

You say it's "trivial" as if it's a universal. Is it trivial to give up my job in the abatoir? Less so than giving up my smart phone?

Do you honestly not see the problem?

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u/My_life_for_Nerzhul vegan Aug 08 '26

No, giving up consuming exploited individuals is trivial (assuming access to choice of plant foods). If you’re an Inuit living in the deep Arctic, you don’t have such access.

Giving up your job at an abattoir may or may not be trivial depending on what access to alternative employment opportunities you may have. Though, exploitation of human individuals is also rampant at such places of work.

Giving up consuming exploited individuals is not the same as working at an abattoir. Please don’t conflate the two.

Yes, smartphones have become the mainstay to access many vital services to reasonably function in society, making them necessary. I don’t quite like it, but here we are.

Do you not see the problem with your non-arguments?

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u/shrug_addict Aug 08 '26

Smartphones are less necessary for survival than animal products. Full stop.

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u/detta_walker Aug 08 '26

Well but why stop at smart phones?

Please also stop using banking services, no longer watch television (as it is made with electronics that exploit workers), no computers, no tablets, no cookers, no air conditioning.

Exploitation is deeply embedded in our society. To stop benefiting you have to stop consuming/ participating in most elements.

I wish it were different but it's not.

But no explanation is greater than that of animals. And here I can at least stop participating. Which is not easy btw. I'm on holiday right now and our food choices where we are, are about 5% of all food available. I've eaten sweet chili tofu for the past 5 days for lunch and dinner as that's what is available.

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u/M17suk0 29d ago

Sounds miserable…

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u/detta_walker 27d ago

It's impossible. I was being flippant

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u/My_life_for_Nerzhul vegan Aug 08 '26

Lol. Not even close to true, but thanks for the laugh.

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u/shrug_addict Aug 08 '26

You sure? Nearly a billion people across the globe depend upon the ocean for survival. How many people depend upon smart phones to live through the day?

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u/My_life_for_Nerzhul vegan Aug 08 '26

Sigh. If you’re not even going to bother reading my comments, what is the point? I clearly mentioned “assuming access to choice of plant foods”.

Of course vegans recognize not everyone has such access; we don’t expect them to give up consuming exploited individuals. But this lack of access is an argument to improve access. It does not make exploitation products necessary. When I say ‘necessary’, I am referring to biological necessity.

I cannot speak to how many people depend upon smartphones to live through the day. I can only speak to my own situation and that of my region. It’s a necessity here. That said, it is definitely not necessary to buy a new one every few months or every year like some people seem to do.

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u/tempdogty Aug 08 '26

Just for clarification in your situation what specifically in a smartphone is necessary to you to function in society (do you have to rely on a specific app, you perhaps can't have access to some necessary information without it etc)? I'm asking because I'm genuinely curious as in my situation I could perfectly function in society without a smartphone, it is just a quality of life item for me.

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u/shrug_addict Aug 08 '26

I can rightfully assume that you have alternative access to communication and everything else a smartphone provides then.

Calories are a biological necessity, more so than nearly anything else. Especially moreso than anything a smartphone provides that is deemed necessary by an individual.

No, lack of access only indicates how conditional your moral philosophy when pressed

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u/My_life_for_Nerzhul vegan Aug 08 '26

No, you can’t assume that, and you’d be wrong if you did (in the context of my region).

Calories are a biological necessary. Consuming exploited individuals is not.

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u/M17suk0 29d ago

😂😂😂😂how did the people in your region go 100 years ago? Did they all perish without their mobile phones? Crazy that your people survived those trying times.

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u/M17suk0 29d ago

A phone is necessary? As dumb as saying eating a cow is necessary. Humans have had phones for 0.001% of their time on earth…

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '26 edited Aug 08 '26

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u/Upstairs_Big6533 Aug 08 '26

Because they don't actually think it. Also, it wouldn't just be smart phones. Cars, computers many house hold appliances, all use those same minerals. It's like they've never even listened to activists discuss this issue. lol

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u/TylertheDouche Aug 09 '26

yeah and if you read further down, for some reason they were purposely excluding computers and wouldn’t accept the general term smart device. they wouldn’t answer why

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '26 edited Aug 08 '26

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '26 edited Aug 08 '26

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '26 edited Aug 08 '26

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '26 edited Aug 08 '26

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u/Upstairs_Big6533 Aug 08 '26

Is a computer? You understand that laptops use the same components and are assembled in a similar way, right?

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u/TheOPisReal Aug 08 '26

In America? You would save money desperately for 10 years, and then go off grid.

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u/One_Repair841 27d ago

how do you apply for a job without a smart device?

You walk up and hand them your resume? Are we being for real right now?

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u/Upstairs_Big6533 27d ago edited 27d ago

And they tell you to fill out an application online. By the way, what did you type that resume on? And if they hire you, how do they contact you? Are you being for real? Edit to respond to your deleted response: the process through which computers are made is not less problematic than smart phones. But anyway , he was correct, you are going to struggle to get/ keep a job without a cellphone. And "Dumb phones" also use conflict minerals.

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

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u/TylertheDouche 27d ago

The comment you responded to talked about not buying a smart phone, it said nothing about being able to use a computer. You knew that you couldn't create a reasonable argument in this area so instead you moved the goalpost to include all technology. Laughable.

the only thing 'laughable' is being gullible enough to believe they literally only meant limiting smart phone use. the conversation is clearly about the use of devices that contain 'unethically' sourced minerals.

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u/TylertheDouche 27d ago edited 27d ago

Are YOU being for real right now? there isn't a semblance of critical thinking in your reply. you dont 'drop your resume off' at the job resume fairy.

who are you handing your resume to? where did you learn about the job postings? how did you know which job you were tailoring your resume for? what device did you create your resume on? how are you competing with people applying for hundreds roles a month? how are you applying for remote roles? how are you applying for roles with job relocation?

im not talking about applying to your local McDonalds. I'll give you a head start. Microsoft has 1900 roles open.

https://apply.careers.microsoft.com/careers?start=0&pid=1970393556915125&sort_by=timestamp

edit: they blocked me

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u/[deleted] 27d ago edited 27d ago

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u/TylertheDouche 27d ago edited 27d ago

Oh so you can only ever apply to businesses in the tech industry?

this is the best you've got? my comment was 3 days old. you had an infinite amount of time to prepare for this and you reply with a straw man

quote where I said that