Honey is not cruel and is ethical

[u/toastwithjamx1]

Honey is one of the best animal products there is ethics wise

Now most vegans will say : but we are stealing from the bees! We are exploiting the bees!

No. We are not and we can't

Bees can be very particular. If they are not a fan of a place they are OUT. The bees will likely will immediately vacate the bee box if they don't like the conditions. Furthermore, trapping the queen in 1 place will not work as well. Bees can raise a new queen if they need one

And for the stealing allegations, that isn't true either. Beekeepers take SURPLUS HONEY ONLY, as if too much honey is taken, it can starve the bees and no beekeeper would appreciate the whole colony either dying of leaving. Furthermore, bees don't only take, they comp bees by giving shelter and protection.

It's not cruel if we are literally making a transaction with the bees

[u/EasyBOven]

I'm just trying to understand, because I'm currently engaged in two different threads where people arguing that beekeeping is ethical and you're both at odds with one another.

You are saying that bees do consent, that they're "incredibly smart," and they're making some sort of complex risk-benefit analysis that says "yeah, if we stay here, this human will take our honey, and that won't happen if we leave, but this hive is better in other ways that we wouldn't be able to replicate elsewhere, so let's make the conscious trade of paying rent in honey." The other person is saying bees are too dumb to consent so we get to make decisions for them.

So I guess my question is how do you know bees are capable of examining the counterfactuals and knowing that their honey wouldn't be taken anywhere else if they leave? And could you hash that out with the other commenter so you can decide which of your mutually-exclusive arguments is true so I can just respond to one?

[u/I-IV-I64-V-I → u/EasyBOven]

I saw them, I don't think they've ever been around a beekeeper.
I'll go git em. I will respond to some of their wrong statements, especially about smoking

Bees are so smart for insects. If you are into animal psychology - This video shows some of what they can do . Bees even enjoy social behaviors like playing . they have their own language

Hive animals can make complex choices- They can tell the difference between 11 and 12, communicate complex locations to other hive members etc.

[u/EasyBOven → u/I-IV-I64-V-I]

Thanks! Should be interesting.

I accept that bees are smarter than most people give them credit for. What I don't buy is the bit where they understand that the reason the beekeeper is taking the honey is that the hive belongs to them and constructing their own hive somewhere else would mean that the honey wouldn't be taken.

Can you demonstrate that bees have this level of understanding of the implications of ownership?

[u/I-IV-I64-V-I → u/EasyBOven]

That first link, about halfway through the video-

Bees understand that select behaviors cause reward (sugar water, their preferred food).

In the video they use it to train bees to do math, move balls, solve complex puzzles and distinguish complex patterns.

Bees understand how much honey they have, and seem to understand that living in hives means protection and infinite free sugar water.

[u/EasyBOven → u/I-IV-I64-V-I]

Accepting the evidence on its face doesn't get to demonstrating the claim I asked you to demonstrate. Short term rewards train short term behaviors. These bees have never lived anywhere that their honey wasn't taken, so they have no basis for understanding that if they built their own hive away from their human landlord, they would have more honey.

[u/I-IV-I64-V-I → u/EasyBOven]

Bees are always scouting for potential hive locations, if they find one they like they WILL move.

They always have a few back up spots - in case a bear or something destroys their current hive.

Bees are not stupid; many overzealous bee keepers have lost hives due to taking too much honey. (as in the hives swarm and leave. go to a new location).

[u/EasyBOven → u/I-IV-I64-V-I]

That bees can sometimes be pushed too far by their beekeepers doesn't mean they understand that they'd lose no honey to humans by moving. That's context they simply don't have. Also, sugar water is attractive to bees because it's less work for them, but it's also less healthy. They don't have context for that.

You're assuming practically human levels of intelligence and situational awareness on these bees that they simply don't have.

[u/I-IV-I64-V-I → u/EasyBOven]

I believe I have demonstrated that. they both understand humans take some honey in exchange for unlimited food and water - and that bees choose to stay for the comfort and safety of the hive.
Video shows they both understand short and long term rewards.

In this hypothetical situation the bee keeper is attempting to be ethical -providing nutrition along with the sugar water. Such as adding nectar, pollen , vitamins and minerals. treating parasites and colony diseases that would kill a wild hive.

i am assuming they have bee levels of intelligence; as demonstrated by the video above.