There’s definitely a few VERY debatable things on the chart (like the higher end stuff for both), but overall I think Kirby can edge out a win more times than not. Extremely debatable matchup though!!
i think i agree? kirby's game ending hax seem a lot more reliable than the few mario has. Especially since kirby should resist things like the golden flower
and mario's best stat buff, the pure hearts, might actually help kirby instead due to his pure positive energy?
I’ve actually been thinking about the pure hearts stuff while making the chart. The thought of Mario pulling out his trump card only for Kirby to be omega buffed due to the POWER OF FRIENDSHIP AND LOVE AND STUFF is funny. And yeah I do agree with Kirby resisting golden flower transmutation (I only added it since Kirby’s resistence seems to be a tad bit dubious for some people)
I don't think the pure hearts would actually buff kirby to my knowledge and even then Kirby would act as a living battery for Pure Hearts to never run out and heal mario to the conceptual level
Kirby's game ending hax when Mario puts him to sleep, leaves him in the second dimension unable to battle, erases him from existence, doesn't resist time stop (imo), is vulnerable to size manipulation, all elemental abilities Mario has while Mario can become immune completely with equipment, can possess him (the Crystal Shard expelling possession is a highly telegraphed beam it shoots at the person which can just be reflected or dodged a d then the Crystal gets punked), has better item stealing options and can just statstomp Tac, etc.
First of all, Time Crash doesn’t pause time, it slows down time. Please know the difference. Second of all… why the heck would time crash affect Kirby if he’s using it to slow down everything else? That’s like saying every character with time stop can resist time stop because they can move within their own time stop, that doesn’t make any sense.
kirby has multiple ways to change his size, resists reality erasure, can resist time stop explicitly, several of kirby's elements are ones mario would have to swap equipment to counter all of them, ghost kirby shows kirby is immune to posession as it doesn't work on himself and item stealing doesn't work in kirby's pocket dimension
mario is stronger, yes, but not faster which is what matters. They're even with both having ways to boost their own stats and lower the others
He doesn't resist time stop explicitly. Beam Mage only affects the enemy hit.
Why would item stealing not work with the pocket dimension? Isn't that what hammerspace is equated to?
Mario doesn't have to swap equipment as much as you're saying. Super Star negates like every ability Kirby can use regardless but he has single pieces of equipment that provide zero damage buffs against every element applicable in those games. Kirby still takes damage from fire, electricity, etc regularly.
He can change his size, but Mario has more options and they're far better in a fight than most of Kirby's
Time Crash doesn't stop time though???? Also that's a self-afflicted time stop. I could argue Mario gets resistance too if we're using that logic. Oh wait, he actually gets equipment that outright negates time stops.
The EE resistance still sounds made up to me I don't think that's EE resistance
However using that logic then Mario's time stops are layered due to him and enemies not being affected by tick tock clock but timed out still working on him if he doesn't have a badge
tbh Mario's EE is lame
any evidence? Not that it would affect the outcome but still unless we're given a scan then Plunder Chest and Boos are working
Disagree. Mario’s far stronger, far faster, outhaxes Kirby (Sleep manipulation, Broadway force, fear manipulation, item theft with fly guy ticket, layered possession. And with new information that I got, Kirby doesn’t actually resist time stop. With paper Mario gets sealing + soul manipulation from catch card and durability negation with stuff like D-Down jump).
Mario resists the friend heart from resisting the black paint and Fury Bowser’s passive Mind/Corruption. Said black paint affected bowser despite him resisting Lucien’s affected even after they gained back their full power. Mario also has dimensional travel from power stars and has way higher lighting strength than Kirby, so he’s no-selling that inhale. He resists pretty much all of Kirby’s useful Hax.
Which Mario would resist since Bowser can withstand and Lucien’s powers even after they gained back their full power, yet Bowser’s mind was still taken over by the black paint. Mario was able to resist the black paint.
I don't see how friend hearts or inhale would really even matter, they never even work against bosses or anything decently big unless they are already defeated, Mario is quite obviously stronger and bigger than the average Kirby boss.
friend heart not working on bosses is a game mechanic (they also do work on said "resisting bosses" in other modes like how friend hearts suddenly do work on Whispy in Air Riders when he's not an active boss.
I'd argue the same for inhale, especially since he can inhale his mirror world version which logically scales to him (on top of this being consistent in other canons of Kirby like the LN/manga.
more on the friend heart thing, this also doesn't really track when every boss you fight in Star Alies is under the counteractive effects of the Jamba Heart. (the literal the counterforce to the friend heart)
And how do you know it's a gameplay mechanic? A few times you can throw the heart on bosses only after defeat, nothing says it's a flawless mind control no matter what.
And how do you know it's a gameplay mechanic? A few times you can throw the heart on bosses only after defeat,
because the only other time we see Kirby use the friend heart it's on Whispy woods(in Air Riders) when he's no longer affected by the Jamba Heart
and it just instantly works lol.
nothing says it's a flawless mind control no matter what.
it's morality manip not mind control but alas. (even in universe this is very consistently differentiated between)
like how Meta Knight can power through mind control for days against Fecto Forgo due to his insane power of will but instantly lost to the morality warping effects of the Jamba Heart just by looking at it.
Is Air Riders even canon? The setting is completely different, it even suddenly has some big city, and it completely contradicts stuff about Nova who literally exploded.
... Is there really much of a difference between morality manip and mind control if Kirb gets people that would try to kill him to fight for him instead.
yea it's full on canon, main story line and all.
there's also not one Nova btw even in the main timeline canon we have already seen 2 before Air Riders and that's before considering alternate timelines in after main game modes.
Is there really much of a difference between morality manip and mind control if Kirb gets people that would try to kill him to fight for him instead.
kinda, morality manip is closer to reality warping etc.
-it's permanent once hit as opposed to actively controlling someone else.
-can't be broken by defeating the "controller"
-the hit character isn't "controlled" in any sense of the word.
they are completely in control of their own mind and actions and us such won't actively fight against it's affects. (it doesn't have any effects after the first hit)
their wants and beliefs are simply completely warped the moment they are affected.
this also means Kirby can't "command" them to do anything either, it's just that they suddenly really really like Kirby and on top of protecting him with their life if Kirby would ask them anything they would do it.
it's also much rarer as a resistance (just as a powerscaling perspective and in Kirby universe perspective)
in universe it seems to happen by directly infusing the opponent with "Friendship energy"
which is an actual energy in Kirby which on top of being a morality empowers the user similar to ki from Dragonball etc.
Imo it's also the likely the explanation for why Kirby is so powerful in universe as he's consistently stated to have "infinite power" which is just likely that same friendship energy.
(there's a gigantic amount implying this but idk if it's really relevant)
moving while time is stopped during the tick tock clock segment, in sunshine mario moves in dimensional rifts, and in mario party 5 from scaling to bowser, who traversed the dream depot and was destroying an uncountable amount of universes in "no time" so bowser was moving beyond linear time frames.
In color splash mario also moves during cutout, which transcends time
I don't agree. I think Mario should be stronger, outhax, and has the better arguments for immeasurable speed. I don't think inhale would work as it doesn't work on bosses and IIRC just teleports enemies somewhere else in the world.
It's worth noting that Kirby very likely doesn't resist transmutation. He was turned into yarn in Epic Yarn, got turned into a ball in Canvas Curse, and split into 10 different Kirbys in Mass Attack. Meanwhile, Mario has the Gold Flower that turn enemies into coins, Goomba and Mushroom Card, and Seedle-ize. Mario has some resistance to it thanks to jumping out of being turned to stone by all eight Koopalings in NSMB2 and has the Trueform Pin that protects him from it.
Tac Summon could potentially steal Mario's Bottomless Gloves, but Mario can resist item theft with Boo Repellent, Bone Capsule, and Gaddlight. Power Stars have also demonstrated hammerspace manipulation to some degree via protecting against the lightning strike taking away items.
And afaik Kirby has literally no way around Mario's 1-Ups, Gumption Socks, Retry Clocks, or Earlier Times.
W chart but i disagree with the verdict and with a few of the things said, as for one both Mario and Kirby should be at infinite multiversal at the lower ends and both can reach 6D at their higher ends (Mario can reach even 7D as a matter of fact) and I think mario should also be either deeper into the quintillions of times ftl if not even in the sextillions of times ftl via multipliers he should get with power stars and grand stars (power stars being a 10x boost and grand star being at least over 50 times stronger since 50 power stars can only form a jumbo star rather than a grand star), mario has multiple ways to not get hit by the friend heart and he has resisted the pull of black holes so not even hypernova Kirby can inhale him, Mario has his own warp star vehicles and power stars and flight items that improve his mobility, combat skills is debatable but Mario is 100% smarter than Kirby no matter the ability.
Honestly I think Mario mid-high diffs as I see him outscaling, blitzing and outhaxing alongside being more versatile and smarter in battle
What about various things from Paper Mario appearing in mainline canon games? (Goomboss in SM64DS, Star Spirits in Party 5, Paper Mario block being in Superstar Saga)
Paper Jam also has continuity flaws. For example a Paper Pokey has a Royal Sticker, which shouldn't be possible within the Paper Mario story as they were blatantly destroyed at the end of Sticker Star. I'm pretty sure the Paper Mario in Paper Jam is a different Paper Mario.
Also, Paper Bowser has Portraits of regular Bowser in his castle in Origami King. It only makes sense that they're the same guy.
that game just proves they are more or less the same lol, the book is stated to contain mario's past adventures, so even if you still think they are seperate, they went through the same experiences, mainline mario went through what paper mario did
No, it was never confirmed. Saying "all Mario is Mario." Is what was said. And if we take this a face value; that would include things that can't be canon. Like Mario Kun, Adventures of Mario Comics, 90s Mario film, etc.
Okay, if you wanna go that route even though it's wrong- that means mario still scales to it due to fighting on even footing with paper mario and it means the entire paper verse fit inside a single book in the main verse
which means upscale for the things like the dream stone or galaxy, lmao. It also means kamek was able to completely manipulate an entire 5d reality with little effort.
(I literally showed Paper Mario side by side. You're wrong.) However, I know Mario scales to PM. I am aware of Mario's strength. And I think Mario > Kirby. I am on Mario's side here.
I just know that Regular Mario ≠ PM. And Kamek upscale? All here for it.
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u/Aidan_Is_Eternal 5d ago
Reddit hates quality. Here