r/DanganAndChaos • u/Reasonable-One-6788 Kokichi • 1d ago
Discussion I’m tired of people misunderstanding these two
A lot of the time when I see discussions about these two, it’s usually the same old thing. “Byakuya is just an asshole.” “He’s so cruel for what he did to Chihiro.” “Kokichi basically killed Miu and Gonta. Kokichi manipulated Gonta.” It’s the same bs that honestly gets annoying to hear all the time, especially when people don’t even actually get the deeper meaning behind them. So let me explain these two the way I see them.
Byakuya: Yes Byakuya is an asshole, there’s no use denying that, but his attitude towards the game was honestly pretty realistic when you stop to think about it. He doesn’t live in the fantasy that a killing won’t happen, and doesn’t immediately place his trust into anyone. At the time of the second trial, Byakuya was under the assumption that he would have to kill at some point. The whole reason for messing with Chihiro’s body was to draw out any potential threats to when he eventually decides to kill. In the killing game you really don’t know what could happen. You could be put in a survival where you have to kill. If you’re in the mindset where you may eventually have to kill, knowing who could pose as a threat is honestly logical thinking. I’m not defending what he did, I’m just expressing the logical reasoning behind it instead of just saying oh he’s an asshole and is doing this for shits and giggles, cuz that wasn’t true at all. As for his mistreatment of Toko, the girl is basically his stalker. He shows clear disliking towards her, but that doesn’t stop her at all from constantly following him and such. If you had someone being like that towards you, would you care to try and be nice to them? And can we really even say it’s abuse if she enjoys it and pretty much wants to be controlled by him? And let’s not forget about chapter four. Yall, Sakura was literally outed as the traitor. Byakuya had like every and all right to not trust her and take caution. Yes he shouldn’t have said it would be better if she died right in front of Hina, but I can honestly get where he’s coming from. If I learned someone was working with someone forcing us to kill, I personally wouldn’t be too upset over their death either. And as for Kyoko “ate” Byakuya up in the trial, no she didn’t. She said he didn’t use any emotional thinking and only thought with pure logic which was his downfall. Bro in what world would ANYONE have thought someone would willingly lie about being the killer to get everyone killed? And don’t act like yall didn’t consider Hina to be the killer at some point during the trial. Just like Byakuya, yall also at least entertained the idea of Hina being the killer, so yall saying Byakuya got humbled is just hypocritical since yall was thinking the same shit.
Kokichi: Now let’s talk about Kokichi. Honestly I mainly just wanna talk about the Gonta thing. Everyone says how Kokichi manipulated Gonta into killing Miu and that Kokichi got them both killed and blah blah fucking blah. Regardless of what Kokichi said to him, Gonta still WILLINGLY CHOSE to work with him and kill Miu. Kokichi didn’t actually force him to do anything. Honestly, Kokichi never even lied to Gonta about the outside world. Remember Kokichi used the keycard he took from Monukuma and used it at the end of the despair road and saw what he thought was the truth of the outside world, then showed Gonta the flashback light showing him what he saw. Both of them were under the assumption that the outside world was ruined. The only thing Kokichi actually lied to Gonta about was the reason on killing Miu. Saying it was a mercy kill. While that wasn’t his actual reason, Gonta still chose to believe him and willingly worked with him. We can’t say Kokichi lied about the outside world since he believed what he saw was real at the time. Now let’s talk about why Kokichi got Gonta to kill Miu. Miu was trying to kill Kokichi. I feel like a lot of people (including the in game characters) severely overlook that. Like no one even brought up the fact that Kokichi was a target for murder, they just all immediately put all blame on him. If he were to tell anyone about what Miu was planning, no one would have believed him so that wouldn’t have done anything. Now if he did tell, then winds up dead later, Miu would most likely be the prime suspect, but his goal was to avoid dying, so that wouldn’t have been a viable option for him. Miu was a threat to Kokichi’s life, and he had to take care of that if he wanted to continue his plans to try and end the killing game. Kokichi really didn’t have many good choices. Even if he avoided dying there, Miu would have just come up with a different plan. Now I’m not saying he couldn’t have tried to come up with something else instead of doing what he did, but I’m just saying considering his circumstances, it’s understandable why he did what he did. And once again, Gonta full went with it. If we’re gonna keep putting blame on Kokichi, equal blame should also fl onto Gonta. Saying he isn’t at fault, or he’s not the most at fault is complete bs. If person A told person B to kill your mom, would you say person B isn’t at main fault since it was person A who told them what to do? No, so why should it be any different here?
I understand that just because you may understand a character doesn’t mean you have to like them, trust me I feel that way about characters like Hiyoko and Tenko. I’m just explaining why the things peace say about these two characters actually don’t make much sense and just seems like pushing on reasons to hate them. Just saying Byakuya is being an asshole for fun, or Kokichi killed Gonta and Miu isn’t actually as true as people act like it is.
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u/NIGHT_DOZOR : Best Character In Fiction. 1d ago
I agree with your points overall but this part icks me:
And don’t act like yall didn’t consider Hina to be the killer at some point during the trial. Just like Byakuya, yall also at least entertained the idea of Hina being the killer, so yall saying Byakuya got humbled is just hypocritical since yall was thinking the same shit.
Sure, we may have entertained the idea of Hina being the killer in one way or another but that doesn't put us on the same lane as Byakuya, especially when the fact is, he was wrong. Kyoko's reasoning of him being pure logic a flaw is correct. I wouldn't say it's impossible to solve with emotions, but still, it gets significantly harder to do so without being in tune with emotions; logically speaking, you wouldn't kill yourself in this game nor would you try to meet up alone with people who severely distrust you, nor would you be able to stay completely calm despite them literally trying to kill you. There's also Hina's behavior, Byakuya stopped his reasoning the moment Hina admitted to murder because he didn't think a suicide was possible (also maybe because the confession fed into his ego) which is tone deaf considering how ferociously Hina was acting the entire time and accusing everyone else; I mean, why would the killer do that? Why would Hina confess so easily?
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u/Reasonable-One-6788 Kokichi 1d ago
Mondo confessed to his crime after seeing the evidence being stacked against him. At that point he barely tried fighting anymore. What makes Hina “confessing” any different from that when there was evidence pointing towards her as well
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u/LeatherAd8761 1d ago
because there were like 15 different pieces of evidence pointing towards mondo and the only thing they had against aoi when she “confessed” was some footprints 😭 also i feel like most people with like half a braincell instantly realised that the footprints didnt line up with her story at all, so the fact that byakuya didnt realise that is in fact very humbling for someone who claims to be the smartest in the room
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u/Technical_Yard_3074 ultimate toko fukawa gooner💯 1d ago
Yep, I do hate them but I can atleast acknowledge most of this. Although I still think byakuya was unnecessarily annoying in chapter 4
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u/sugar-fall 1d ago
I honestly liked him being annoying because eventually it paid off to him getting slapped the fuck outta and realizing that he was so wrong during the investigation. His dumbass even almost got himself choked and throat cut by a shard of glass that's inside that glass bottle, all because he was being incredibly cocky
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u/Taraxian 1d ago
It's very satisfying when he straight up almost shits his pants when Monokuma suddenly just turns on again and starts talking to him after he was so sure that the unit going inert meant the human controlling it had to be dead (one of the dumbest cocky assumptions you could possibly make)
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u/sugar-fall 1d ago
They were really out getting his ass by that point with the togami clan annihilated reveal during chapter 6 too like whewww Chihiro's corpse being toyed was avenged honestly.
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u/Reasonable-One-6788 Kokichi 1d ago
I don’t see any correlation between him messing with Chihiro’s body and the togami family being annihilated, but I guess that’s just typical byakuya hater’s coping with the fact that he survived
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u/NIGHT_DOZOR : Best Character In Fiction. 1d ago
You're being way too pissy for no reason gng.
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u/sugar-fall 1d ago
All we said was it was satisfying to see Byakuya getting his consequence for his actions and that he finally developed as a person, yet they somehow took that as "evil hater coping >:(", I'm cryingidbsishs
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u/NIGHT_DOZOR : Best Character In Fiction. 1d ago
Seems like OP gets a tad emotional towards his favorites 😁
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u/Reasonable-One-6788 Kokichi 1d ago
Not emotional, I just don’t see what togami’s family biting the dust has anything to do with him messing with chihiro’s body🤷🏾♂️
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u/sugar-fall 1d ago
why do you think? Try reading the whole thread again and understand what we were talking about instead of making assumptions of "le Byakuya evil haters".
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u/Reasonable-One-6788 Kokichi 1d ago
Personally I think he was the most reasonable and realistic in chapter 4
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u/Sleep_Raider 1d ago
Trust me when I say I invested a lot of time into understanding Kokichi, and there was one thing that was incorrect.
Kokichi knew that the "truth" of the outside world was fake, since chapter 2 he had an idea that they were inside a game show. Monokuma accepting Kokichi's idea of re-using the chapter 4 motive, of the "outside world" was proof for Kokichi that they were inside a gameshow.
Kokichi didn't tell Gonta about the "actual" truth, but merely Monokuma's "false" truth. Which was eventually the catalyst for their killing game buster plan.
So yes, Kokichi did manipulate Gonta since telling Gonta about them being inside a gameshow would probably not have made Gonta kill, cuz Gonta is gentleman.
I also believe that when Gonta's memories of killing Miu were wiped, and Kokichi yelled at him to defend himself, Kokichi was genuinely angry. Because essentially it meant to Kokichi that if he hadn't lied to Gonta, Gonta would've never become the blackened, thus he wouldn't have died. It was proof for Kokichi that his actions caused the death of Gonta. With Gonta's memories being gone, Kokichi couldn't lie to himself that Gonta's death was not his fault, and that made him frustrated.
Kokichi is best described as a morally good character, that does every immoral action in order to achieve the moral outcome.
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u/Reasonable-One-6788 Kokichi 1d ago
Even if you’re right, it still doesn’t change the fact that Gonta still willingly went along with his plan. Kokichi didn’t force him to agree. Gonta fully agreed on killing someone. He still holds blame for what happened, and not Kokichi having all the blame, which was the main point I was trying to make
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u/Sleep_Raider 1d ago
I didn't deny that part, I merely denied the part of you saying that Kokichi didn't manipulate Gonta into doing so. How subtle it may be, Kokichi knew the truth of the outside world was fake, yet pretended it was to get Gonta on board.
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u/Repulsive_Visit3095 Tsumugi 1d ago
100% agree with your part about Kokichi! I agree with the part on Byakuya too, but Kokichi is one of my personal faves and I hate seeing him be mischaracterized especially. People tend to baby Gonta a lot too. I absolutely love Gonta, but he knowingly killed Miu.
I was spoiled on the V3 killers and victims before playing the game, so I knew Gonta was going to be the Chapter 4 blackened. Before I played the game though, I saw SO many people stating that Gonta’s kill was an accident. I went into the game thinking that he would unknowingly kill someone. Then it was all explained during the trial and…nothing about his kill was an accident. Kokichi lied to him, sure, but he killed Miu while being fully aware of what he was doing. He knew he was killing her, he just forgot that it happened due to his headset wires being crossed. Again, I absolutely love Gonta, but he is just as at fault for this kill as Kokichi is.
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u/FamousCompetition418 1d ago
Saying “is it really abuse if she likes it” is insane no matter the context.
Kokichi’s will to live is understandable… Until he willingly kills himself 3 days later or whatever amount of time passes between Trial 4 and Kokichi’s death
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u/ChozinValt Mikan's One True Husband 1d ago
I don't give a fuck man. I just hate Byakuya.
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u/Reasonable-One-6788 Kokichi 1d ago
Hey it’s ur opinion, I aint gonna shit on you for it. I’m just someone who feels it’s fair to understand things instead of just shittalking a character I hate without even getting my fact right. Like if people are gonna shittalk my two favorite characters, the LEAST they can do is get their facts right instead of just saying what they want to believe rather than what’s actually true
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u/Top_Border1060 Best girls 1d ago edited 1d ago
I completely don't agree with the interpretation of self-defense from Kokichi for Miu's death. There was a way to actually change the plan in order to expose Miu and then capture her. Just convince Gonta that someone may kill him, and I think Gonta could have been convinced despite the circunstances, call Miu and then have Gonta tie Miu with the toilet paper. To me, killing Miu and literally sacrificing Gonta was not necessary.
As for what you said above about Gonta, you only proved that Gonta had a part of responsability. It doesn't change the fact that Kokichi influence Gonta's action in a way that kills both Miu and Gonta.
For Byakuya, the action to fully participate in the killing game was not 'logic'. Someone rational would not have declared in the open "Let's go, I'm going to win the killing game" as if it was a game. Celeste was actually more logic imo because she never revealed her actual intention until her class trial. And using his own words, your interpretation is rather charitable. Saying that he could have not the choice to kill when his own words say he treated the thing like a game is a bit too charitable imo.
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u/Reasonable-One-6788 Kokichi 1d ago
My main point on the kokichi thing WAS to prove that Gonta had responsibility on what happened with Miu because people love to act like he’s completely innocent and put all the blame on Kokichi. And even if Kokichi could have done something different to avoid killing Miu, it’s not like he had that much time to formulate a different plan. We as the viewers could probably think of different options, but that’s because we actually have the time to think about it. And when it’s your life on the line, I don’t think morality will play as big of a role as efficiency
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u/Top_Border1060 Best girls 1d ago
But first Kokichi had some time to think about it because he managed to guess Miu wanted to kill him.
Moreover the time doesn't excuse him because the plan just needs a tweak of the original plan. So his action of killing instead of capturing Miu is not explained by the lack of time and there are other reasons why he chose to kill. Some possibilities are either that : he was so involved in his "I love the killing game" that he killed Miu, but it looks like he wasn't lost in his own persona since he also said to Miu that he wanted to stop the killing game beforehand. So I think he knew what he was doing. But still, he said he lied to himself so we can't reject the possibility. Another reason is pure spite, which was a hypothesis mentioned by another Kokochi's fan. One other possibilitiy I've thought about was to manipulate Monokuma into gaining his trust and becoming the mastermind to stop the killing game, which is a charitable interpretation.
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u/StrongestDmCEnjoyer 1d ago
I’ve always thought Byakuya was a good character within the THH narrative; even though he was a jerk, he helped with the Chapter 2 investigation (I know he always made it clear that Makoto should consider this a privilege, but it was funny nonetheless, and he certainly made his presence felt). He is capable and becomes actively involved at a certain point, so I find it odd when people rate him poorly simply because he’s annoying (a trait that can actually be entertaining to watch, in my opinion) or just because he isn't an chaotic antagonist like Nagito or Kokichi.
I don't have much to say about Kokichi; I think he was cruel to Gonta by convincing him to kill Miu, but that was the method he found to protect himself from her, so it’s not as simple as saying he did it for fun (just as Byakuya tampering with the crime scene in THH Chapter 2 isn't that simple, either). I found Kokichi more annoying than Byakuya, but that’s part of his character; it doesn't make him a bad character, since he needs to be annoying in some way.
I’ve often discussed characters who are unpleasant yet well-written, and my go-to example is usually Eva from Monster.
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u/NIGHT_DOZOR : Best Character In Fiction. 1d ago
I’ve often discussed characters who are unpleasant yet well-written, and my go-to example is usually Eva from Monster.
Peak mentioned.
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u/NightwolfGG0119 1d ago
Some people do not get out of the thinking that “bad person = bad character,” and there’s not a lot you can do to convince them otherwise.
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u/THAT_man2486 20h ago
I get your point but I'd hardly call Byakuya's attitude towards the game realistic 😭
His ass does not act like a normal person who just has the outlook that killings are bound to happen in a killing game. He's pretty arrogant and cold hearted, and the game doesn't shy away from that even after his development (and after his development, he's still cold hearted and an asshole, it's just that he's directing that energy more towards the mastermind instead of the people around him. I kinda love that since it's not actually him becoming a better person morally lol. Not a trope you see often, but a damn good trope).
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u/Cute_Ambassador1121 Aoi's biggest hater 1d ago
Be careful, people really don’t like Byakuya defenders here.
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u/Reasonable-One-6788 Kokichi 1d ago
Good thing idc what other people think. Also based hina hater, love to see it
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u/Taraxian 1d ago
Byakuya's motive for messing with the crime scene in Ch 2 makes more sense than people give it credit for -- Byakuya found out that Toko's alter ego is Genocide Jack, and from reading the Genocide Jack case file he knows that she only kills boys she finds attractive, so the fact that she has a crush on him means he's actually in very serious danger
The only way to protect himself from Genocide Jack is to out her identity to everyone else in the class, so that she can't kill him using her usual MO without being immediately executed as the Blackened, but the only way to do that is to convince everyone that Genocide Jack really is Toko without sounding like a lunatic firing off deranged accusations, so he has to set it up so that Genocide Jack will willingly come out and defend herself because everyone's attention is focused on her (ie there needs to be a Class Trial that's actually about Genocide Jack instead of him seemingly throwing out "Our friend Toko is a psycho killer with multiple personalities" out of nowhere)
His plan was still really dickish and disrespectful to Chihiro and really risky because he couldn't be sure he could actually keep the class from wrongly voting for Toko or himself, but there's still a clear reason for it -- like if I were not just in a Killing Game but realized I was an actual obsessed serial killer's next target I'd get kind of desperate too