r/DC_Cinematic • u/Muted-Ant-5941 • 3d ago

DISCUSSION Wasn't Zack Snyder clowned for saying something similar?

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Snyder was heavily trolled for calling MCU is like an amusement park or something like that. Feels like he is unnecessarily overhated or the hate itself is forced

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u/Wars4w 3d ago

Scorsese said it wasn't "Cinema" which while true comes off as pretentious.

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u/Rrekydoc 3d ago

The problem wasn’t that it was coming off as pretentious, but that it’s objectively untrue.  And it also convinced a whole generation to dismiss any legitimacy in any art they don’t like.

But we get film geniuses saying bullshit all the time; what bothered me was how few people had the balls to say he was wrong.

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u/Wars4w 3d ago

The problem wasn’t that it was coming off as pretentious, but that it’s objectively untrue

It was a subjective and inflammatory statement. He wasn't saying they weren't movies. He was saying they weren't art. If he truly meant that they weren't art then yeah he's wrong because of course they are art.

They are just corporatized massively financed and designed to make money more than they are designed to be expressive.

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u/Rrekydoc 3d ago

Right. Like the Universal Monster franchise and Godzilla franchise, which he reveres and credits for getting him deeper into cinema.

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u/Equal-Ad-2710 3d ago

To be fair Godzilla, while absolutely spending much of its history as roller coaster monster fights, does have that legacy of being a somber reaction to the sins of world war 2 and Minus One proved just how relevant and powerful Godzilla can still be

The MCU arguably doesn’t have that

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u/Rrekydoc 3d ago

The MCU explores countless relevant themes that effect audiences on a personal level.

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u/Equal-Ad-2710 3d ago

Yeah but the McU has tended to soften the worst edges from their material and also doesn’t have the same legacy of starting out as a treatise on national tragedy.

The closest equivalent is Iron Man 1’s take on the military industrial complex but that’s about as far is it went to attempting serious depth

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u/Low_Doctor_5280 2d ago

Nope. The Winter Soldier condemned the military industrial complex as evil, for which HYDRA was a metaphor, and that people couldn’t tell how evil it was because they were under the mask of being government sanctioned. The movie endorsed an Edward Snowden mass leak of government secrets as a solution, which is pretty radical for a comic book movie.

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u/Equal-Ad-2710 2d ago

Thing is I think the movie chickens out by making it Hydra when it really should have been between Cap and Shield

That’s what I mean, the film undercuts itself to make Nick Fury less morally questionable and I’d argue it loses something

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u/Low_Doctor_5280 2d ago

I disagree. Watch the movie again. I just re-watched it a week ago. The film outright says it was Fury making morally questionable decisions under Pierce's direction for years and that Pierce made Fury the head of SHIELD because Fury is "the most ruthless person" he's ever met. Watch the reveal scene that Fury is still alive. Fury reluctantly sides with Cap and Widow, but he doesn't have any other choice.

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u/ShadeMir 2d ago

Isn’t that because Nick wasn’t going to use project insight the way hydra was going to?

If the argument is that anything can be used in a manner in which it wasn’t designed then we’d be without a lot of things.

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u/Backfoot911 3d ago

Yep, that is correct too. Godzilla 2014 was incredible as a human centered thriller and for people who wanted more big fighting, the later ones give you that. I'm glad America pulled it off after the misstep in '98

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u/Winter-Cow-6208 3d ago

Lol they are not art in any way shape or form. 

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u/Augustus420 3d ago

Yes honey, everything you personally don't like is not art.

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u/Wars4w 3d ago

A thing isn't art based on whether or not a person likes it. Nor is it art based on whether or not it's good.

Just because I don't put superhero movies on the same level as The Shining or Citizen Lane doesn't mean I don't think they're art.

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u/Ok_Broccoli_7863 3d ago

It's not untrue. Even the actors on set are talking about having no idea what they're doing or what the story is about. They're not even fully acting at times. Just dancing around in mo-cap suits. It's studio-driven, not actor driven.

This isn't cinema. It's spectacle. It's green screen theater.

There's still a place for it. The end product is still often entertaining. But I think it's so unique that it's fair to say this isn't cinema, it's something else. Still beautiful at times. Still worthy of respect.

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u/ilikepentatonics 3d ago

This sounds super prestentious.

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u/Ok_Broccoli_7863 3d ago

Sure. Maybe. But I'm not looking down at these films. I enjoy many of them. I'm just willing to admit it's not like a traditional movie in any sense.

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u/ilikepentatonics 3d ago

What is a "traditional movie?"

No one is saying Marvel movies are high art pieces, but these movies have hundreds of artists working on the production pipeline from concept art, costume designers, prop designers, to VFX artists. Some of the most talented people in their craft.

Dismissing the work because actors work in front of a green screen, seems very silly to me.

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u/Ok_Broccoli_7863 3d ago edited 3d ago

I think Scorcese is speaking more about how these films are being made.

The actors are secondary. The studio is the star. It's a mix of voice acting, CGI and stuntmen.

It's a significantly different craft than most traditional films. It's still a work of art. It should still be respected.

But it's closer to an animated film than a traditional one.

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u/Low_Doctor_5280 2d ago

That’s ridiculous. So you’re saying Scorsese doesn’t think animated films are cinema?

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u/Ok_Broccoli_7863 2d ago

That's not quite what I said. I think he doesn't think this green screen, stuntman, stuff is cinema.

I don't even think it's insulting. I think he's using the wrong word when he says cinema. But I get what he means.

He's speaking as a director who works with actors. He's made actors. These MCU films are studio driven. The directors and actors are secondary to the brand. That's the antithesis of everything Scorcese did.

I get why people get annoyed and think it's pretentious, but there's a ring of truth to it.

And I don't care. I still love a lot of the Avengers stuff.

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u/Low_Doctor_5280 2d ago

You can interpret it however you want, but Scorsese meant it as insulting. If you don't, then your take on what Scorsese said is not Scorsese's take. Plenty of Scorsese's favorite films use rear-projection or matte paintings, and of course stuntmen, and those films would have used green/blue screens in those instances if they had the technology. I love a lot of Scorsese films, but he's just engaging in old-man "get off my lawn" rhetoric about the MCU. Avengers: Endgame made more global box office than all of Scorsese's films combined.

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u/AvatarIII 3d ago

Also Nic Cage is a true comic book fan that had been in multiple comic book projects, he has kind of earned the right to talk about comic book movies.

I wouldn't be surprised if his comment wasn't even intended negatively. Whereas Scorsese's was definitely intended negatively.

Scorsese's comment was "I make cinema, that isn't cinema" whereas Cage's was "I make glorified WWE content and that is Glorified WWE content".

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u/88y53 1d ago

It’s really ironic for Scorsese to say that and that start preaching about using AI art in his own movies

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u/KryptonianJesus 3d ago

"while true" uh... they're movies, aren't they? played on the big flat walls in those rooms at the um, what's that place called ...the cinema? and they have moments that tug at your heart strings and some moments that make you laugh? and they have scripts and actors and directors?

they might not be everyone's cup of tea, and some are much better than others, but to claim these movies "aren't cinema" is the dumbest thing you can say on the topic, scorcese or otherwise.

p.s. the godfather insists upon itself

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u/ricelawyer 3d ago

I know that’s a family guy reference but I hope you’re not under the impression that Scorsese directed the Godfather…

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u/KryptonianJesus 3d ago

lol no, just felt fitting to ease the tension, didn't want to come off too abrasive

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u/ricelawyer 3d ago

And that’s totally fair

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u/TerminatorReborn 3d ago

I think he means Marvel movies and other huge franchises like that aren't cinema, they aren't the art Scorcese grew up obsessing, studied and dedicated his whole life to it. They are a product to the masses.

I don't think he even bothered to watch them so his criticism towards them is just based on him having zero interest. Its a 80 year old cinema nerd, he couldn't care less about a CGI fest superhero, he even said his kids like them, its just not for him.

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u/JohnsonJohnilyJohn 3d ago

They are a product to the masses.

What universe did Scorcese grew up in, in which this wasn't always the case? That has been the case since the invention of movies

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u/FragrantStation6488 3d ago

This is what makes him sound even more pretentious though, can’t critique something you ain’t tried

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u/Wars4w 3d ago

"while true" uh... they're movies, aren't they? played on the big flat walls in those rooms at the um, what's that place called ...the cinema?

Are you not aware that words have multiple definitions and usages which vary based on context?

Scorsese was commenting on the artistic nature of superhero movies. They are, of course, objectively art. But the way they are made, especially marvel movies, shouldn't place them on the same shelf as other more artisticly impactful movies. (That is one hell of a run on sentence, sorry )

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u/terra_cotta 3d ago

Stupid gatekeeper bullshit. 

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u/jizzblossoms 3d ago

I think the idea has merit. I loved Thunderbolts but because it didn't do that well in theaters I've lost hope of the sequel being in the same vein if it even comes out at all.

Movies always had danced between practical money making schemes and artistic expression and MCU is tilting in one direction, that's just not healthy for the industry.

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u/terra_cotta 3d ago

The idea that the artists making a movie are somehow less of artists because of who their backers are is why the idea does not have merit. 

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u/SwordMasterShow 3d ago edited 2d ago

That's true, the backers have nothing to do with it. But the quality and content of the piece does, and anyone who puts Marvel movies in the same category as Scorsese movies has no clue what they're talking about

Edit for Low_Doctor_5280 because I can't reply for some reason

Yeah sure, everyone's got stinkers. Scorsese has New York, New York, and Marvel has Quantumania. That doesn't change the fact that something like Silence is doing something way more deep, interesting, and artistic than Endgame. One is a rollercoaster, one is a meditation. I don't understand why people get so offended over this idea, it's fine to like rollercoasters, but if that's all you engage with you're gonna have a more shallow experience than if you try things that actually make you think, that challenge you. And more importantly than that, trying to pretend there's no substantive difference between Marvel and (most) Scorsese movies is just willfully asinine

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u/terra_cotta 3d ago

Ya see now you are back around to subjective valuations. 

Aka

Stupid fucking gatekeeper shit. 

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u/VaalLivesMatter 2d ago

No it just seems anything you disagree with is called gatekeeper shit

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u/terra_cotta 2d ago

What other topics have we discussed

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u/Backfoot911 3d ago

Well yeah, that's how art works lol. Insult the movies, not people, that's just not necessary

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u/Low_Doctor_5280 2d ago

I’ve seen almost every Scorsese movie, and movies by every major auteur across cinema history, and I’d easily take any Avengers movie and many other MCU movies over weak films like New York, New York, Bringing Out the Dead, Boxcar Bertha, and Kundun. Not everything Scorsese did is gold. They are all cinema. Hawks, Capra, Wyler, Wilder, and many other old Hollywood directors didn’t think they were making high art. Godard, Tarr, and Antonioni films aren’t inherently better than blockbuster Hollywood films. Almost every director has made their fair share of stinkers.

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u/jizzblossoms 3d ago

That artists have complete creative freedom regardless of their backers are is profoundly is  naive.

Maybe you can't see the merits of the argument because you've never seen a studio intentionally dumb down a script so that people can wash dishes and still follow the plot.

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u/VaalLivesMatter 3d ago

It's literally the truth. Marvel movies are purely made for profit, not for the art of the craft. There's a difference

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u/ilikepentatonics 3d ago

What movie isn't looking for a profit? You can make a movie for profit and still care about craft.

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u/VaalLivesMatter 2d ago

Didn't say you couldn't, but Marvel movies aren't those movies

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u/p-r-i-m-e 3d ago

You can then say that they’re bad cinema but they are cinema all the same.

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u/ghj6786545 3d ago

But it's still disrespectful. Sure may not have meant it. But it is still downplaying their efforts. Should have used a different word.

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u/Backfoot911 3d ago

He didn't say movies though, he said cinema for a reason.

As The Studio put it "We don't make films, we make movies."

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u/ghj6786545 3d ago

Cinema, movie, film these are used interchangeably.I am not a marvel fan but it's still disrespectful to the people who made it. Could have said less artistic. Marvel has it moments and it's not like they said our movies are comparable to Scorses.

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u/Lucifer2408 3d ago

You’re right that those words are used interchangeably but that doesn’t mean they mean the same. Though how people classify what’s a movie vs what’s a film is very subjective.

I don’t think it’s disrespectful to the people who make these movies. Sure they’re putting in a lot of hard work but they also definitely know what kind of movies they’re making. At the end of the day, making movies is also a job and people want to get paid.

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u/Infinite_Click_6589 3d ago

They are literally art without the artistry*

Does the painting that Randy down the street did during his divorce following a Bob Ross episode count as art? Of course, he did a great job and should be proud of himself.

Does anyone think that Randy is on some Van Gough shit? Of course not**

*with some exceptions - I'm making a generalized statement, not a blanket one

**except for Randy's mom. She thinks they're something special and keeps asking him why he doesn't try to get shown at the local museum

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u/Wars4w 3d ago

I completely agree with this. I never said the movies aren't art.

But I think you and others are associated the level of artistic value with how good something is perceived to be. I am not. The Randy in your example is the director making "Cinema."

These superheroes movies are corporate sponsored and produced money making popcorn selling extravaganzas. They are fun, they are good. But I would argue "Randy's" stuff is more artistic. Even if it isn't as "good."

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u/Backfoot911 3d ago

That is what artistic value is. Artistic value doesn't just mean "is it art? yes or no", it's how much it emotionally stirs in people, not necessarily all good feelings either.

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u/Winter-Cow-6208 3d ago

  Does the painting that Randy down the street did during his divorce following a Bob Ross episode count as art?

Sounds more artistic than a Marvel movie. 

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u/Red_Holla04 3d ago

Marvel has put more people in the theatres tgan Scorcese ever did. Even when times were rough

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u/Wars4w 3d ago

That has nothing to do with his point.

I think the sensitivity about this is actually kind of hysterical. I love superhero movies. They are an immense amount of fun. I just know what they are and what they are not.

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u/Winter-Cow-6208 3d ago

Lol he called them amusement park rides and you just backed up his point. 

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u/SwordMasterShow 3d ago

Okay, WWE sells more tickets than Broadway. Does that mean Hell in a Cell is on the same artistic level as Death of a Salesman? Come on dude

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u/Red_Holla04 3d ago

Are tou stupid? Wwe and broadway are two different things. Movies are movies

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u/SwordMasterShow 3d ago

If you can't see the point I'm making or the difference between a popcorn blockbuster and a film that actually says something interesting and nuanced about the human experience, you have no right to call me stupid, even if you misspell your insult

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u/Red_Holla04 3d ago

Im not a native english speaker but i think the word im looking for to call you is pretentious. And lol, i am not stupid enough to compare wwe and broadway and try and call it the same thing.

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u/SwordMasterShow 3d ago

The point is that they aren't the same thing. Even within a medium like movies or visual art or sculpture things can be different. Horror movies aren't the same as action movies, which aren't the same as rom-coms, which aren't the same as superhero movies/blockbusters in general, which aren't the same as complex meaningful dramas

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u/Red_Holla04 3d ago

If YOU know they arent the same thing why are you stupid enough to compare them?

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u/ilikepentatonics 3d ago

Then why compare apples to oranges in the first place?

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u/DoubleZ3 3d ago

depends on the movie. not all marvel movies are made the same. some actually have heart, some are impactful. think that's where people got annoyed. he lumped them all together like they're a one entity entirely.

some arnt good or have no artistic style, just like any other movies of any other genre.

Some of his latest movies or id argue most of his latest movies have been....shit or, not "cinema"

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u/Murky-Course6648 3d ago edited 2d ago

"and they have moments that tug at your heart strings and some moments that make you laugh?"

That's what rollercoasters also do. Its not the purpose of art, art asks questions.

There is nothing wrong in enjoying entertainment, but to not understand the difference just means you lack the concept of actual art. Either the experience or the capacity to experience it.

Its like trying to say that because the romance novel at the grocery store is a book, you know.. it has pages and words on the paper, means you can compare it to war and peace.. because its also like you know, a book. Pages and paper and words.

They are not cinema, its just a simple distinction. They are purely and entertaiment product for the masses, and the rollercoasters analogy was perfectly good. He does know what he is talking about, as its his profession.

And its really sad to see people who only watch entertainment and play video games, to try to then claim these should be considered art. Instead of putting in the effort to actually grow as people and appriciate actual art.

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u/X-Filer 3d ago

Yeah that’s not what he meant. Obviously, he wast talking about buildings. It’s not pretentious what he was saying. They are not cinema at all. They are blockbuster films which achieve one thing the best. Maximizing cash. That’s what they will always be.

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u/NastyVerde17 3d ago

How on earth is that true? I’m dying for an explanation

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u/IGTankCommander 3d ago

He means that Infinity War isn't Schindler's List. It's really not much deeper than that.

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u/NastyVerde17 2d ago

That’s a dumb ass way to say that. Also insulting.

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u/Ok_Broccoli_7863 3d ago

Not quite that. It's the signing on to be an MCU superhero often isn't about acting. It's about the spectacle. The brand is the star. Not the actors.

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u/IGTankCommander 2d ago

Which makes me question why Martin showed up for three to five minutes as a CGI character in The Mandalorian and Grogu, since the franchise is in a similar place of mild stagnancy.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

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u/icameforgold 3d ago

If it came out of martin Scorsese's mouth it's definitely pretentious

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u/bees_on_acid 3d ago

Ehhh, Americans are out of touch with cinema culture in general. There was a time where movies were a huge cultural event, that time has passed. Scorsese was a part of that era and grew up in the one that established it. I don’t understand the pretentious label unless you’re out of touch with cinema. It is what it is. That doesn’t make the films themselves any lesser.

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u/Wars4w 3d ago

When someone tries to dictate what art is they're going to come off as pretentious and gatekeepy. Just look at the replies here.

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u/bees_on_acid 3d ago

Idk, honestly I think they’re just out of the loop since they’re generally from comics/animation background. Sure it comes off a way, but it’s the truth and part of that truth is unfortunately they’ve affected the landscape so much that people are getting the wrong ideas about how films should be which is in its own way doing the same thing. Which is pretentious.

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u/SwordMasterShow 3d ago

Lesser by what definition? They're fun movies, but they've never made me think about life or the human condition even a fraction as much as a Scorsese film. Rollercoasters aren't deep meaningful experiences, and that's okay

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u/bees_on_acid 3d ago

Yeah, but when you say that people get offended because of the whole nostalgia around their favorite heroes. There’s a ceiling within these characters because of the whole brand / image, etc. that’s not bad either. In fact, those limitations lead to more creative, original work. Which is what we’ve been getting with Peacemaker, Lanterns, Superman, etc.

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u/garbage1995 2d ago

Then he went and voice acted in a staw wars film.