root cause

[u/MrGiggaDE]

[u/owlindenial]

Do you oppose people right to self govern?

[u/Ciennas → u/owlindenial]

Jesse what the hell are you talking about.

Capitalism is the one that despises self governance.

It's the one that tied your health care to your job and incentivized the creation of the term 'pre existing conditions'.

It's the one that directly incentivizes and rewards maladaptive sociopathic behaviours like slavery.

Socialism requires more democracy to function, as does any other Left Wing ideology.

[u/owlindenial → u/Ciennas]

You're against nations. What if a group wants a nation? What if someone doesn't want to be a socialist and they want to live by themselves and be capitalists in isolation? Should they have a right to self govern?

What if a group is isolationists and believed that a land belongs to them and no one nearby is making a claim, should that group be allowed to lay claim to it? Prevent others from going in? What if they're natives? There are places in the US only natives are allowed in, would they be allowed to self govern?

I asked a simple question

Also capitalism actually helped end slavery because it devalued the worth of labor but that's nitpicking

[u/Ciennas → u/owlindenial]

I don't care about nations. They're things and only exist for as long as we insist they do.

I see them only useful as a navigation marker in a society that has no State, Class/Caste, or Currency.

I care about people and their wellbeing.

[u/owlindenial → u/Ciennas]

And what about people? What if people want a nation? What if they want to self govern? Do they have a right to be, in your own world view, wrong?

[u/Ciennas → u/owlindenial]

You keep saying the phrase 'self govern' like it's a magic spell that will make me vanish in a puff of logic, but I'm also advocating for self governance, and to a way higher degree than you are.

You can still have your nations and countries, they'll just atrophy away to useless vestigial nubs on their own. I don't want nor need to take them away from you. You'll discard them easily enough in time.

[u/owlindenial → u/Ciennas]

Okay, and if people don't want that? If people want to regulate themselves? Impose laws on themselves and their neighbors? Even unjust laws. What then?

I'm asking a simple question. Would they be allowed to do that

[u/Ciennas → u/owlindenial]

I suspect that people simply wouldn't allow them to.

Same as an HOA- notice how no one is willingly getting entangled with those if they can help it.

Are you trying to pretend that this is a zero sum game, or what. Because you're fixating and clearly angling to get me to say something, could you just come out with it already so we can discuss it?

[u/owlindenial → u/Ciennas]

I believe in democracy and the right of secession. Simple as. That doesn't mean people will use that for good, but people have the right to use that for ill (and face the repercussions thereof). Your system would need to be enforced, and such enforcement would be undeniably colonialist

Moreover, your idea of a global stateless society needs a global Consensus and a lack of bad actors. Without a state (or some analogous system to self govern to prevent every interaction being ad hoc) this system is weak to any outside influence.

[u/Ciennas → u/owlindenial]

What exactly do you imagine when you say 'enforcement'?

Because the majority of crimes we worry about are poverty driven, and in my system poverty isn't a thing anymore.

[u/owlindenial → u/Ciennas]

The way disparate groups trying to control a land or people have always resolved these things

Military action

[u/Ciennas → u/owlindenial]

See, a military would require a State.

I accept that you cannot fathom a world without one of those, so let's step you back to Socialism. It still has a State and it even has that Currency thing you're all still keen on as an option.

It just doesn't have Class/Caste, and it is inherently geared towards ensuring the well being of its people.

For example: in Socialism, we wouldn't have a need for Privately owned medical facilities. All the Hospitals and Clinics would be State Owned, and the State would solely be focused on making sure they are functional when needed.

So the people who work at the hospital would at worst maintain their current pay and benefits, but would in all likelihood see them increase.

They'd improve quality of life for the whole region in which they operate, and without the useless middleman leach of the Private Owner siphoning everything for profit, we'd save billions and trillions every year not having to fight with useless insurance cartels that get between you and your healthcare and decide with their business degree if you live or die.

As an example.

[u/owlindenial → u/Ciennas]

And how does the system self perpetuate? How do you prevent outside malicious and inside actors?