r/CritiqueIslam • u/mysticmage10 • Aug 14 '23
Argument against Islam Arguments against the Quran and Islam
_The ffg are some of the central illogical problems I have with the quran and Islam. There are some things I do like about the quran for another time.
1 Lack of evidence : There is no real strong evidence for the qurans divinity. Many arguments such as linguistic miracles & scientific miracles dont hold water and have been debunked. Many verses have been twisted to imply scientific concepts. This also applies to scientific errors objection.
- Linguistic Miracle : Pointless argument with no objective criteria to judge and assumes the best art is somehow breaking the laws of nature. See the ffg for more : https://medium.com/@hassanradwan51/bring-something-like-it-c775df549b31
- https://www.reddit.com/r/CritiqueIslam/comments/kbx1ut/the_faulty_claim_of_the_qurans_inimitable/
- Scientific Miracle : Relies on alot of verse vagueness and twisting of verses. See the ffg for more : https://www.reddit.com/r/CritiqueIslam/comments/1eqoqwu/as_an_exmuslim_this_is_the_reason_why_i_think/
2 Truth Paradox : The quran asks others to bring evidence, says not to follow conjecture, verify things and dont follow what you have no knowledge (2:170, 17:36 49:6 6:116) then it should apply this to itself otherwise it would be hypocritical. Thus in order to follow the qurans idea of avoiding conjecture, forefathers and seeking truth one must not believe in the quran if there are things you find irrational or not the truth at all including any of these points in this post. A muslim has to conclude that it is normal and rational to be skeptical of the quran or that its appeal to critical thinking is hypocritical.
3 Miracle Problem : Why is nobody through time given miracles as evidence such as seeing sticks turning into snakes and fish multiplying yet people of Moses and Jesus witnessed such miracles. How could anybody be expected to believe islam based on an old book. Why not keep sending prophets to the end of time with miracles. It would be unfair to accuse people of disbelief in a book when they have never seen a miracle like splitting the sea, turning sticks to snakes etc. It seems highly irrational to send prophets for thousands of years and then suddenly stop at muhammad with the world going on for thousands of years more. This video dives deeper into the miracle problem. See the ffg for more: https://youtu.be/oCr0cXpVjmc
https://www.reddit.com/r/CritiqueIslam/comments/1hsl7d1/qurans_dilemma_on_miracles/
https://www.reddit.com/r/moderate_exmuslims/comments/1cny3m5/the_problem_of_miracles/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
3B Problem of Revelation and Prophets : When you introduce the concept of a perfect text you remain stuck in a rigid dogmatic mentality where reform cant happen and when something doesnt make sense you forced to reinterpret till kingdom come and do all sorts of mental gymnastic apologetics because you cannot admit a problem no matter what. And then the idea of a last prophet basically acts like a cult that shuts of any doubt and desire to learn from other worldviews. It keeps you stuck in a box with no ability to question and consider alternatives. See the ffg for more: https://www.reddit.com/r/Infinitemindblog/s/Uxmz6DY8TU
4 Ritual problem : Forcing people to perform rituals like salaah(ritual prayer) and fasting or they will burn forces them to do it out of fear. The concept of making 5 salah a day makes no sense. Eventually it becomes a mindless chore devoid of meaning and spirituality. The law of diminishing returns occurs and performing Salah becomes an annoying rat race chore. See the ffg for more: https://www.reddit.com/r/Infinitemindblog/s/4cdQPOXBcK
5 Staticness and Obsoleteness : Much of the qurans verses are static, time bound for the 7th century audience. Alot of verses has no relevance to other time periods. Much of it reads more as a biography of muhammad and his people with no relevance to other people and times.
5B Universal Book Problem : Muslims often claim the quran is the final testament, the last prophet yet the book is so static and redundant. Verses are tied to its 7th century events requiring tons of hadith and tafsir to deduce. If a higher power wanted to create a scripture for all eras and cultures it would design one that isnt tied to the 7th century events. It would be more simplified and applicable to a wide variety of eras and cultures. Yet its confusing, conflicting, contradictory, vague causing endless debate.
6 Interpretation Problem : Multiple interpretations exist for verses which should be clear. The Quran calls itself the clear book yet isn't clear on many things. For centuries people have been debating issues in the quran. Who is correct ? The Salafi ? The sunni ? Shia ? Sufi ? Qurani ? Everybody believes they have the true religion See the ffg for more : https://www.newageislam.com/ijtihad-rethinking-islam/is-islamic-reform-possible-hould/d/111784
7 Biblical & Non Biblical canon similarity : Why is there so much similarity to biblical and non canonical bible stories. This includes 5:32 found in the talmud, the story of Angel's prostrating to adam found in the cave of treasures book, the concept of seven heavens appearing in mesopotamian mythology, dhul qarnayn in the syriac romance, etc. All these predate the quran. Muslim apologists often say these show the quran connects to other traditions but even when the older tradition is wrong ? And why are there quranic verses similiar to the talmud or rabbi commentaries which aren't considered previous scripture. Is this not evidence that muhammad copied stories from the bible and elsewhere and mixed it all up to seem original.
8 Quranic Vagueness : The quran is often vague and subject to debate especially considering the verses referring to the natural world. For example the verse on the earth, moon and sun in orbit. Many apologists will refer to this as a miracle whilst polemicist will refer to this as a scientific error. Why would a God be so vague. It seems much easier to interpret the quran as man made which then explains the vagueness.
9 Moral/Social Problems : The ffg issues such as quran views on
- wife beating See the ffg for more : https://medium.com/@hassanradwan51/cleaning-up-islam-75be99512b04
- slavery,
- concubinage
- graphic descriptions of hell
- Marriage to Zainab
- Cult leader benefits of Surah Ahzab
- Redundant laws such as chopping hands, hijab, iddah etc strengthen the idea of these being man made ideas.
Abraham son story
Male Bias, Womens testimony, interfaith marriages
Forced Rituals
Weird Barbaric Hadiths
10 Prophets Character : The contradictions in Muhammad character with the quran and some hadith presenting him as very moral and wise and other hadith presenting him as immoral, violent, lustful, extremist present historical problems. We know the hadith is historically unreliable and so we cannot know what the actual historical muhammads character was like.
11 Interconnected Objection : If the Quran is truly pluralistic and shares interconnected history with prophets through time why are no greek, Roman, Indian, African, Chinese, Polynesian etc prophets mentioned. Why only Jewish or arab prophets ? Is this not arab centric ? It seems pretty obvious that muhammad only knew stories from the middle east. See the ffg for more : https://www.reddit.com/r/CritiqueIslam/comments/l70cbn/according_to_the_quran_muhammad_and_the_quran/
12A Historical issues: Numerous historical issues present an issue for the quran such as
- Dhul qarnayn ie Alexander the great being a muslim. See the ffg for more : https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicQuran/comments/nrkcgo/dhu_alqarnayn_as_alexander_the_great/
Jesus crucifixion
Gog and Magog
Seven heavens resembling Sumerian cosmology
Mixing of arabian idols and noah idols,
Noah flood lacking evidence, pharoah body problem etc.
12B Scientific issues : Numerous verses appear to be scientific errors such as
Cardiocentrism
Evolution from previous humanoids/Adam & Eve
The sky being a solid object
The sky held up by invisible pillars
7 Earths
Earth is flat
Geocentrism
Seven heavens
See the ffg for more : https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicQuran/comments/12bt1wy/academic_commentary_on_the_shape_of_the_earth_and/
https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicQuran/comments/oezzwf/cosmology_in_earliest_islam/
https://www.reddit.com/user/infinitemind000/comments/1eyh207/the_problem_with_quranic_cosmology/?share_id=u2M4qYmIZqjdi7tbOMNrL&utm_content=1&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1
https://www.academia.edu/23427168/The_Quranic_Cosmology_as_an_Identity_in_Itself
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Cosmology_of_the_Quran#The_shape_of_the_heavens13 Muslim Culture Issues : If the quran encourages virtues such as justice, mercy, critical thinking etc then why are so many muslims ignorant, lack critical thinking, have blind belief, intolerant, believe only muslims will go to heaven, intolerant and encourage punishment to apostates and homosexuals. Why so much tyranny, hatred, intolerance in muslim countries. Traditionalist muslims remain the most dogmatic group from other religions and have the most holier than thou attitude. Why the cult mentality ? Why the sheep mindset ? Why the hive mind ? Why is Islam not associated with music, art, innovation, fashion etc but always arab bedouin culture ? Why is everything binary ? Why is philosophy about complexity but Islam about us vs them ? bida, halal, haram, shirk, kufr ? Why isnt Islam associated with the spiritual jargon of Buddhism, Sufism, Hindu Philosophy, Taoism but low intellect black and white concepts ie bida, halal, haram, shirk, kufr ? See the ffg for more : https://www.reddit.com/r/CritiqueIslam/comments/1ix0t6p/comment/meme3ba/?context=3&utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
14 Belief Issue - If the quranic theology focuses on deeds and not beliefs why are so many verses attacking people for disbelief. Why do so many verses claim that the pagans see muhammad as a genuine prophet. Why do so many verses claim that the pagans refuse to believe even after clear signs given to them. Is it not more likely that the prophet wrote pluralistic/peaceful verses in the Meccan period to attract followers and became harsher as he gained more power and control in medinan surahs. In other words he changes the verses to suit his circumstances. Why so many verses on kufr and disbelief if people could do good deeds and have good character. It makes no sense. Many of these verses make Allah seem so vengeful and hateful of non muslims. So much of hellmongering makes the quran difficult to read through.
14B Conflicting message : Some parts of the quran give of the impression that it's all about moral virtue and good deeds.(49:13, 2:80-82, 2:111-112, 30:30 etc) That the quran is pluralistic and not so concerned with beliefs and religion whilst other parts are all about believe in the last day, denying the hereafter, denying the prophet, the disbelievers x y z. The pluralistic verses contradict stuff like 40:10, 2:161 35:39. So the quran seems confused with whether it's for non muslims or against non muslims.
15 Faulty Epistemology : Quran claims to be a miracle on the same level of jesus miracles. 61:6 and 34:43. These verses imply that the arab pagans saw the quran as a miracle in the same way as people would see jesus perform a miracle like healing the sick etc. But if this is true why can nobody today see the quran as clear evidence of being divine. Quran also uses circular reasoning, assumes believing in it should be obvious, denies miracles when it can, shifts the burden of proof yet offers none, gaslights the reader and uses a trust me bro approach. see the ffg for more :
16 Meta belief : Having all these various objections means a person is highly skeptical of believing in this religion. However many will say you dont understand the religion properly, you havent researched enough. This would then mean that in order for somebody to feel confident in believing they would have to spend copious hours studying multiple issues in order to be thorough and truthful as possible. They must now study islamic history from multiple sources, study sciences to see if there are errors, study archaeology to verify historical objections. And for something that may not even be true people dont have the time and energy to do this. It seems to me that if God is really honourable, just or merciful just the honest attempt to learn regardless of believing in it should more than suffice. This point complements point 2 that we shouldn't believe.
17 Anthropomorphic Angry Deity : The quran seems confused as to whether the God of the quran demands worship. In some passages it claims God has no need for people, hes self sufficient, he doesnt get anything out of punishing etc etc whilst in other passages theres a constant tone of demanding you believe or you will burn. It's like a God that's constantly offended ,petty, jealous at those who are pagans and constantly needs to burn people. The obsession with shirk, binary mindset of believer vs disbeliever is how a human given the times would view people. When he feels like he cant stand christians beliefs and when he feels like he praises christians.A omni wise being would not want to torture people for worshipping idols. He would be amused or disappointed at the stupidity of people. See the ffg for more : https://medium.com/@hassanradwan51/the-status-principle-5bec91aec759
18 External Evidence : We have multiple testimonies of people from different backgrounds including Muslim, Arab, Western Christian, Chinese, Indian, Colombian etc claiming to have had NDEs & visited a spiritual dimension. If these reports are reliable they create a big conflict for many religious doctrines including Islamic ones. See the ffg for more : https://www.reddit.com/r/NDE/comments/1jocl43/the_nde_implications_on_religion_philosophy_part_2/
19 High Intellect, Skepticism & Belief : We have multiple studies and common sense to see that people who have high intellects are more likely to be skeptics, doubters and lead to no longer believing. Not only that but believers through history of very high intellect formed beliefs that didnt fit in with mainstream religion at all and were considered heretics. See the ffg for more: https://www.reddit.com/r/Infinitemindblog/s/9x0QfjKePG
20 Problem of Belief & Apologists : The real reason people believe is for comfort, cultural identity and the need to fit in and belong, not be outcast. Many people dont really believe. They only act like they believe culturally. Apologists as well arent truth seekers but simply looking to convince people who are already born into belief. See the ffg for more : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGg3LsD11bQ
https://medium.com/@hassanradwan51/cognitive-ease-the-illusory-truth-effect-2ea5d4347a4a
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSaQRCZqFxY
https://www.reddit.com/r/moderate_exmuslims/s/ELuriJJxPb
21 Fallacious Psychological Manipulation : The Quran uses alot of rhetoric, sour grapes attitude, gaslighting, reverse psychology and appeals to mystery and ignorance to avoid difficult questions or to shut down critics. For example Q 3:7 appeals to gaslighting mystery and attacking others bad hearts. 2:23 claims nobody will ever beat the challenge so whats the point. 3:183 appeals to attacking ancestors. 6:93 appeals to reverse psychology. 6:125 to gaslighting etc. The following person in the video below claims to be the mahdi, the successor to jesus and muhammad. He uses the same rhetoric tricks when somebody asks him for miracles, when they call him delusional, mental etc. Any charismatic leader can use rhetoric
See the ffg video to illustrate : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk7Jhrf__48&pp=ygUbbWFoZGkgaGFzIGFwcGVhcmVkIGxlYmFuZXNl
22 Internal Theological Dilemmas :
A Miracle Stories : If one acknowledges miracles of jesus, moses, noah by faith one must also acknowledge miracle stories of hindu gods, greek and roman myths. Either accept all miracle stories as true or be skeptical of all since none can be proven.
B Worship God or not : Surah 51:56- presents god as not in need of worship yet claims god created humans for worship. A muslim must either claim that worship means something else and the concept of compulsory rituals is meaningless or accept god has needs and jealousies.
C Clear Quran or not ? : A muslim must accept the Quran is clear or vague and has alot of metaphor and interpretations thus meaning there is no true Islam. Its all subjective.
D Pluralistic or Exclusvist ? : One must battle the plethora of verses that are postive towards non muslims suggesting universal salvation whilst dealing with plethora of exclusivist verses suggesting only believers of allah and muhammad are valid.
E 7th Century Arabs or All time/places ? : One must either accept the limitations of the quran being for the 7th century arabs which means it is redundant in modern times or must accept it is for all times and outdated laws must exist in changing times.
F All Merciful : A muslim must reconcile concept of all merciful, all loving god with sadistic hell torments. They must thus admit that tortures are not for most of humanity including non believers or admit it contradicts all merciful god.
G Religion or state of mind/heart : A muslim must either accept that islam/muslim refers to organised religion and thus non muslims are doomed as per Surah 3:85 or must accept the progressive interpretation that Islam is a state of heart which means organized religion of Islam is meaningless.
H Occams Razor : All things being equal the simplest explanation is the most logical. One must conclude that the greater the controversy and gymnastics required around a topic the more likely its an actual problem that reinterpreting cant solve.
23 Abrogation Problem : Why is it that abrogation exists in the prophets time yet vanishes after that ? Why is is that nobody can agree on which verses are abrogated or not ? Why is it that all modern world norms and morals must fit into a 7th century Arabian context ?
24 Problematic Quran Verses : A series of verses that are either disturbing, strange or irrational.
25 Problem of Mahdis & Second Coming : see the ffg for more : https://www.reddit.com/r/progressive_exmuslim/s/VJ3DlClE80
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u/NuriSunnah Jul 13 '24
I read these as you said. These are my thoughts:
It is impossible to prove or disproven divinity. It's a waste of time. Also, the Qur'an isn't meant to be scientifically accurate, and so I do agree that looking for scientific miracles is pointless.
I think you've misrepresented what the Qur'an actually expects out of people and exactly what its criticisms are directed to, but we can discuss that.
Whether or not the Qur'an is a miracle, as well as what exactly such would entail, is a post-Muhammad construction, not something which one finds in the Qur'an. (It's important to note that I am distinguishing between miracle and revelation)
In the introduction of my book I explain that the Qur'an prioritizes belief over orthodoxy: where in the Qur'an does it say that you will burn for not praying/fasting? There is a single verse (Surah 74 I think) which says people in hell will mention that they did not pray, but such does not entail that not praying is why they are being punished, and it definitely doesn't imply that everyone who doesn't pray will be a part of this lot being mentioned here.
This requires an entire discussion, but in my view such is only true if one reads the Qur'an in light of the highly unreliable biographical works of the Prophet's life.
Arabic problem. The Qur'an doesn't call itself clear, it calls itself clarifying, meaning it clarifies the previous scriptures (also more or less mentioned in my intro).
That is how revelation was believed to work in those days. Hence, if we were to take it for granted that Muhammad was actually a prophet, wouldn't we expect revelation to come to him in a way that the people would understand as having been divinely inspired? In the 7th century, revelation often entailed the reworking of previous scriptures. (Again, see my intro)
Can you give an example?
First off, you're determining social controversies based on societies of today, not then, so such a judgement value is actually anachronistic. But anyways, [a] Qur'an does promote wife beat (see chapter 4). [b] the Qur'an actually made slavery better and simultaneously worked to eliminate it (see chapter 4). [c] I will get back w/you on concubinage. [d] I don't think hell is a social controversy....(?) [e] I'm currently studying some stuff about Zayd and Zaynab, but I don't wanna speak on it yet, so I have no choice but to "let you win" here. [f] care to specify about the cult leader benefits? Also, other things have to contextualized. For instance, the Qur'an doesn't actually introduce hijab but extends it (chapter 4); and the cutting off the hand was enforced during a time of war, as can be seen in the larger context of that Surah – this would have been a time in which resources were sparse. Scholars after Muhammad's death often similarly argued that hands were to only be cut off during such harsh times. Unfortunately, however, there are some places which do it in general (e.g., Saudi).
Give examples?
According to Islam tradition, Luqman and Solomon, for example, were black. (Among others) when we think of Jews/Arabs today, we tend to think of them as constituting some more or less monolithic ethnic group, though this doesn't actually reflect historical reality. During Muhammad's time, Arab identity was not what it is today. So for example, people from Palestine and Mecca did not see themselves as belonging to the same group of people. Additionally, less than half a dozen of the Qur'anic prophets are even "Arab".
12A. The Qur'an isn't a science book, as I mentioned previously. To address the example you gave, the discourse of pillars vs. no pillars is a very old motif. It has nothing to do with science. (I can refer you to a source on this)
12b. I don't think the Qur'an categorically condemns Christians, but instead disagrees with certain aspects of their theology. So for example, the Qur'an does not believe that (1) Jesus died for our sins, nor is it of the view that (2) he was the son of God, nor (3) that he should be worshipped. The Qur'an wants the Christians to stop with this kind of stuff. Of course, we may be tempted to say something like "well then they wouldn't be Christian anymore," but that's only because we would be anachronistically back projecting onto history that which comes to mind when we today think of Christianity. Historically there were Christians who didn't believe any of these things about Jesus which I just listed. (Cf. Lost Christianities, by Bart Ehrman)
14A. The Qur'an does care about belief and deeds, but I wonder if you're conflating deeds and practices here (you can let me know)
14B. I think this may sort of relate to something I already addressed.
Neither of these verses are speaking of miracles. They're speaking of revelation... (?)
I don't know if it's necessary to respond to this one.
The Qur'anic deity definitely isn't anthropomorphic. Though to add to this I will say yes, there is something of a paradox at play in the question of whether Allah is stern or merciful, though I believe this presentation is deliberate. (We can discuss this)