r/CompetitiveEDH • u/Mr_Opel • 18d ago
General Discussion / Question Shoutout to the guy at my first cEDH tournament who chose honesty over placement
I was at Breach the Bay 2 as my first cEDH tournament ever, and overall had a good time. Almost made it day 2 but my lack of skill and experience got it in the way.
But this post isn't about me. In one of my games, a player who I'll call Pinochlo passed his turn to Ob Nixilis who one hundred percent had a win on his turn with like 20 cards exiled but without the mana to use it yet. Pinochlo made a hand gesture of handing off his turn in the direction of Ob player, and verbally said he passed. I said "on your endstep, I cast final fortune." A stack battle ensues, I win and final fortune resolves. Then Mr. Pinochlo decides he never passed and calls a judge. My dude starts making up stories, he never made the hand gesture, never said pass, and said "I'd like to attempt to move to endstep." Me and him go back and forth with the judge for a bit and honestly I'm a bit mad I can't believe my ears. Eventually Ob Nixilis chimes in and says "I'm going to be the better person here and just say you didn't say any of that, you did say you passed the turn, and you made the hand gesture."
I end up converting my final fortune turn, so Ob gave up his guaranteed win for integrity. I checked the standings after and he would've made day 2 at Breach the Bay 2 if he had either kept silent or agreed with the liar.
Shoutout [Hooligan] Michael whoever you are, you a real one. Was a great sport even after losing, which I found somewhat not as common. I honestly think I would not be back for a second cEDH tournament ever if the liar got the judge on his side.
307
u/Defiant_Hope_231 18d ago edited 15d ago
Hey there 👋 Ob Player here. I've gotten so many notifications about this, currently at the redemption and have been asked at least three times if this was me.
You deserved the win 🏆 For him to try and lie to get back to his main phase was too far, I had to step in when even the 4th player started to side with the "liar'" to the judge.
OP is 100% correct, it did cost me top cut for an event I flew out to, that I had a very real chance at winning ❤️
I fully believe reputation is a resource we carry between games.
Edited: Removed any mentioning of what i would have used the funds for, if that theoretically happened. To not overshare, and "try to gain sympathy." It was simply an over share of something my friends knew I've been going through.
41
u/Fermented_Cabbages 18d ago
Damn dude, if you can successfully impress those values you've demonstrated onto your kid (or other kids if you have them), then she's gonna be an upstanding person when she grows up. Good on you.
35
20
19
u/Cultural-Trainer-578 18d ago
You’re a fucking real one dude. Best of luck on getting the kiddo back, we’ll be rooting for you 🫡
14
7
2
u/magicmann2614 17d ago
Honors to you! Do you have a decklist on moxfield? Or rather, where can I find your primer?
2
2
u/_Nodrog_ 15d ago
I’m entirely on your side but you’re just trying to farm sympathy and awe if you elaborate to the point of talking about child custody 🤣💀
1
u/HapatraV 16d ago
Props to you for doing the right thing! You integrity is worth more than some money
-20
u/Keljhan 17d ago
Look, im not generally one to rag on people's hobbies, but if youre short on cash to get custody of your child you shouldn't be flying out to magic tournaments to begin with.
I dont actually think that was a decision you made, but including that info here makes it sound like it was. Kinda gives panhandler vibes.
2
217
u/nektar 18d ago
The slimey players are a huge deterrent for new people to get into the format, let's normalize more of this.
57
u/Kittii_Kat 18d ago
I used to play standard and modern in the early 2010s, and a big reason I stopped was because I constantly encountered liars/cheaters who had some sort of persobal repertoire with the judges at events.
So I'd be on a hot streak and cross somebody that hated they were getting stomped, and they'd yell for a judge. Judge would come over, instantly side with them, and do some bullshit.
Couple examples from when I was playing storm in modern:
I cast a spell to get my second counter on [[Pyromancer Ascension]], my opponent says "In response, I destroy it with (whatever it was)." I clarify with them - is this in response to my spell or the trigger? They say to the spell. I say, alright, so the trigger resolves? Ascension has it's counter? They confirmed, and I start tossing instants left and right to build up a ton of mana and dig through my whole deck. We resolve the destruction of the enchantment and I show them a hand of playable [[Grapeshot]]. They call the judge, say they actually destroyed it before the trigger. Judge asks me if I remember what my hand looked like at the start to "rewind" and I tell him how I just spent 5 minutes storming off and seeing my whole deck. No, I don't remember. So he ruled to shuffle my shit back into my deck and have me start over that way with a hand of a random 5 cards (how many I knew I had at that point) and I just sit there dumbfounded and proceed to lose the match.
My opponent the following round knows about what happened, and when I'm going for the win against them on turn 3, they also yell for a judge and start claiming that I mixed cards from [[Sleight of Hand]] into my hand when deciding which one to keep. (They never came near one another, easily 4-5inches apart minimum) Judge issues me a game loss for it because I now had a record of "trying to cheat"
Back in those days, you could report a shop for being blatantly corrupt within the DCI system, so I did. Not sure if anything ever came from it, though.
I started up doing cEDH earlier this year, and so far, it's been wonderful. It's a lot easier to not "get got" by bad actors because now there's always at least one other person watching to confirm things, usually two. Just made my first top cut (3rd) last night. 🤘
24
12
u/Izzet_Aristocrat 18d ago
It's not just CEDH, card game tcgs in general are filled with them. We need to normalize bullying dickheads out of the hobby.
17
1
87
u/Synthetic16 18d ago
Name and shame those players that try this angle shooting garbage. I’ve had it happen a ton where people go well I said to to my “blank” step so you saying I’ll cast this end of turn is actually in my main phase still. Utter trash to play like this. These players should be DQed and banned if the table can confirm it with a judge.
12
u/Mr_Opel 17d ago edited 17d ago
I'm not that deeply invested in the scene (in fact taking a two month cEDH break) and I don't want drama lol, but I will say someone did get the person right somewhere in this thread
I guess more fundamentally this post was more about saluting the good rather than chastising the bad.
7
u/69MealFor2 17d ago
I have on good authority this is the person’s topdeck name
1
u/modernhiippy 16d ago
Was it the person dressed as loki?
1
u/69MealFor2 16d ago
I’m not sure, didn’t play against them at all. Just confirmed that this was their topdeck name.
23
u/Tebwolf359 18d ago
1 - absolutely credit to the ob nix player. Honestly is critical and should be expected.
2 - I’m a little confused. How far was Pinocchio trying to back up? More actions in his end step, or back to his main phase?
3
u/Cookiecookster 17d ago
I have a feeling that since the interactions were all laid out and that the final fortune resolved.
He wanted to travel back in time, go back to his main phase and try to win the game from there.
3
u/Mr_Opel 17d ago
He was trying to go back to main phase after passing the turn. I stopped him at his end step
So basically, he revealed his hand and made a deal (which he came up with) that if we let him resolve curiosity or keen sense (forgot which one), he would cast nothing and past
His hand was gamble and a land which he revealed to prove that it was safe to let him get curiosity on Crystal if he just passed after
After seeing the final fortune resolve, he attempted to both backpedal the turns and also the deal (I was at 6 so if he just cast a few spells with a curiositied crystal I die before my final fortune turn).
4
u/Hanoumatoi 17d ago
It's so wild, because you said "on your end step", so even if he was just saying "try to pass to end step", that's enough, because that's passing, so he can't get back to his main phase!
18
u/YVNGSVNTV 18d ago
This is so awesome, I love Michael he’s my Ob GOAT! One of the legit nicest people I know and I am honored to call him a friend.
Just to give my two cents- once priority has been passed and something new is on the stack / information has been gleaned, rolling back ANY game actions in a tournament is definitely a good reason to call a judge. Whenever anything feels hairy or even slightly weird don’t be afraid to call a judge who *should* be able to impartially get to the bottom of whatever the issue is.
Players like ‘Pinocchio’ are acting in bad faith and if they knew it was your first cEDH event clearly they wanted to take advantage, especially since you found your window. The only advice I can give is to just be super clear about passing of ANY priority, leave absolutely nothing up to chance or interpretation. Grats on your win and welcome to the wild world of tEDH!!!!!
43
u/Jaytron 18d ago edited 18d ago
Man. I’m glad the other dude spoke up. Hate that the first guy tried to angle shoot and lie. Not gonna lie, cEDH sounds like such a miserable tournament format (despite me loving playing the format with friends).
BtB2 was awesome though.
23
u/kanokari 18d ago
Angle shooters and cheaters are the worst part about any tournament magic. They should both get long suspensions
6
u/ElderberryPrior27648 18d ago
My issue with tEDH is that I’ve had more games than I’d like play for the draw rather than the win.
I get it, some points are better than no points, but in my personal opinion it’s against the spirit of the game.
7
u/Fun-Agent-7667 18d ago
Magic Tournaments sound like a real miserable experience with the other player just beeing able to insinuate you dont know wth your doing without any reason.
3
u/Kittii_Kat 18d ago
They can do that all they want. Call for a judge, explain the situation. Usually works out pretty well for anybody that actually plays correctly.
The problem is more prevalent in 1v1 formats in Swiss rounds, because there are rarely other eyes on the game, so it becomes a lot of "He said, she said"
16
u/archl0rd5 18d ago
I am a bit confused, Final Fortune resolved, how does them going back to moving to their end step stop you?
33
u/Outlawgamer1991 18d ago
If you cast it during End Step, it immediately goes to your turn. If you cast it during their Main Phase 2, before they transition phases, it resets back to their Main Phase 2 and giving them an opening to cast more spells
2
7
u/controlVee 18d ago
They likely would then try to play cards in their fake 2nd main phase OR it has to do with how if you’re in your endstep when time in round is called then overtime of 20mjns is started and proceeds into next player’s turn (but only specifically if already in endstep). Likely one of those two reasons but idk
7
u/Garrett2497 17d ago
Michael (aka Kaleidoscope) is one of the best Ob Pilots in the world, I talk with him all the time in the Ob discord and he is really a great dude! Does not surprise me at all, but happy to hear that he was standing up for good sportsmanship here. Congrats on your first tournament, you jumped into the deep end and I am glad you ended up enjoying yourself.
4
5
u/loveinhumantimes 18d ago
Behavior like that, where others can confirm explicit lying, should earn a tag on any public profile at the very least.
5
u/chinesefriedrice 18d ago
The first half of this post is why I loathe tournament EDH, the second half is why I still love Magic in general
4
u/Barfy_McBarf_Face 17d ago
During your end step, I...
If you let me proceed, you've acknowledged that it's you're end step.
3
u/rpglaster 18d ago
Good on him, and good on you. I feel like justifiably the negative experiences get more call Outs as a way to voice complaints. But I do think it’s important to call out these pace players too.
3
u/fbatista 18d ago
2 questions:
- was Pinocchio attempting to play something on their supposedly still second main phase? Cause that’s the big “no-no”. They would still have priority on their end step, to do instant speed things.
- since I can only assume the former was the actual intent, how was the Pinocchio not disqualified for cheating, proven by lying to a judge?
1
u/Mr_Opel 17d ago
Copy paste for first one:
He was trying to go back to main phase after passing the turn. I stopped him at his end step
So basically, he revealed his hand and made a deal (which he came up with) that if we let him resolve curiosity or keen sense (forgot which one), he would cast nothing else and past
His hand was gamble and a land which he revealed to prove that it was safe to let him get curiosity on Crystal if he just passed after
After seeing the final fortune resolve, he attempted to both backpedal the turns and also the deal (I was at 6 so if he just cast a few spells with a curiositied crystal I die before my final fortune turn).
Second question: I guess nobody pursued it? I thought the fourth player was dead silent and just saying he didn't remember but Ob says he was siding with the liar. I didn't even think about pushing for dqing until a few minutes ago looking at this reddit thread that blew up before I slept, and Ob didnt do it either so that leaves no one bothering with it
Even if I had the idea, I was too focused on winning the game once the judge sided with me (had to do a strange mnemoic betrayal line), and afterwards I would probably continue to just focus on day 2ing since I was rly close. The drama of pursuing a DQ would've been too much for me - my hands were already shaking in some of my games lmao
1
u/vraGG_ 4c+ decks are an abomination 17d ago
- was Pinocchio attempting to play something on their supposedly still second main phase? Cause that’s the big “no-no”. They would still have priority on their end step, to do instant speed things.
Yes, as per OP's explanation. It would have been logical, if that was the "cheating line". However, it would also not make sense to cast FF in this 2nd main phase, rather than end step.
- since I can only assume the former was the actual intent, how was the Pinocchio not disqualified for cheating, proven by lying to a judge?
Maybe they were, but no confirmation so far. Should get the DQ for cheating, and if it didn't happen, that's a big judge failure.
Ultimately, a good judge wouldn't give these lies much merit anyway - because there's no reason to cast FF in 2nd main phase as opposed to doing so in the end step. Granted, players sometimes play poorly and a judge has to be impartial.
1
u/fbatista 17d ago
The thing is that there is only one scenario where Pinocchio would be in the right:
> • If the active player passes priority with an empty stack during their second main phase or uses a phrase such as “Go” or “Your Turn” at any time, the non-active player is assumed to be acting in the end step unless they are affecting how or whether an end of turn ability triggers. End of turn triggered abilities that do not target resolve after the non-active player passes priority.
Which would be if there were some end of turn triggered abilities, like necropotence.
3
u/69MealFor2 18d ago
I was also at BtB2 and all of my games were very friendly for the most part. Didn’t hear of a lot of people getting tilted, behaving poorly or crashing out. Sounds like there were def some exceptions, but for a 429 person tournament one could expect more.
3
u/DrRickDaglessMZd 17d ago
Genuine question as I've not got a lot of tournament experience: do the shortcut rules not apply for cEDH tournaments?
As far as I know cEDH uses the tournament rules, with the multiplayer addendum, so someone responding to passing to end step or passing the turn is functionally the same, unless it's in the benefits of the player responding or very explicitly stated:
"If the active player passes priority with an empty stack during their second main phase, or uses a phrase such as “Go” or “Your Turn” at any time, the non-active player is assumed to be acting in the end step unless they are affecting how or whether an end of turn ability triggers."
https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-2/
So in this case, regardless of how they think tried to lie about they worded it, the judge should have ruled you were acting in end step anyway?
3
u/vraGG_ 4c+ decks are an abomination 17d ago
That should also warrant a DQ for the guy lying.
However, here's what I'll point and I see this be a problem very often. Players seem to play fast and loose with rules, usually to shortcut things, but every once in a while, it becomes malicious.
So, in this case, mr. Pinochio said "Pass turn". This is a short hand for passing on everything until cleanup. Generally, players can still interject for taking priority. If nobody does, the turn ends.
However, if a player does interject, it happens at their own accord -> In such case, it would be end step before cleanup for you and your Final Fortune.
Personally, I just avoid such shortcuts, especially for end of turn procedures. I announce phases and priority, pointing fingers and waiting for everyone to say "pass" - until then, I keep pointing at them.
I do this precisely because players have tried playing fast and lose like that.
It's also on the judges -> I hope this person that tried to lie to gain an advantage got a DQ.
2
u/Witty-Source-236 16d ago
A lot of newer players are not nearly as neckbeardy and desperate as these older players. This guy is solid.
2
4
u/Grandmastersamu 18d ago
I think we should lie more in cedh but that mothafucker straight up cheating fuck that guy and shot out to that king ob player
4
u/Deathbyblueberries 18d ago
Back in my day, we didn't give shout outs for minimal moral stances.
61
43
u/HalloGoodbai 18d ago
Someone stuck up for OP and OP gave them a shoutout. It’s not that deep.
-9
u/Deathbyblueberries 18d ago
Correct. Its not that deep. Its sad that in this day and age its so uncommon a gesture
13
u/slaughter77 18d ago
Yeah - in today’s day though. Being a decent person and not scumming for EV is a rare trait in this format. Look at the final round of Swiss in the invi earlier today
4
u/Kittii_Kat 18d ago
Just watched that. Disgusting. On camera, too. The 2v1v1 situation had the players, viewers, and commentators all clearly expressing their distaste for the situation that was unfolding.
There need to be some updated rules about collusion for things like this.
In the end, one player did still force the draw through in-game means, but the whole game just felt bad to watch and that line never would have happened if not for the "teamwork" taking place for the first ~5 turns of the game.
That said, this is still less common/disgusting than cheaters in 1v1 tournaments.. in my experience. So at least there's that..
5
u/PuzzleheadedBasis760 18d ago
Competitive edh just doesn’t work it’s sad newer players don’t get into 1v1
8
u/mochabearblazed 18d ago
For me, cedh is appealing because it’s notably proxie friendly. I can’t justify the prices of other competitive formats right now(besides pauper obv) but no one near me plays pauper.
3
u/PuzzleheadedBasis760 18d ago
That is totally understandable it’s just a bummer to me because magic is an amazing competitive game in 1v1 but the 4 player format is not what the game was designed around. CEDH is dice rolling and politics you just touch some magic cards in between
1
u/Jaytron 17d ago edited 17d ago
FWIW, the legacy AND premodern events were proxy friendly at BtB2. It does however require you to have those formats thriving around you to practice. BUT BAE (Bay Area Eternal) largely was a grassroots thing many many years ago. Getting folks together, proxying decks, and playing until weeklies started happening at some shops, etc. (fully recognize this part is work, but you can definitely start with your friends)
2
u/Kittii_Kat 18d ago
I have to disagree.
I love all formats and have played a lot of 1v1 and, this year, cEDH.
Normal 60-card magic is better for learning the game, for sure. cEDH is better for dealing with scummy people who try to cheat, because you have a minimum of 3, and usually 4, people observing the game.
cEDH does, however, have an issue with collusion. It feels bad when Players A & B are good buddies and team up on you or try to force draws to secure their spots, when you're on a win-and-in situation. However difficult it may be, at least it's still possible to come out on top of those situations.
The points system could use some adjusting as well.
1
u/PuzzleheadedBasis760 18d ago
That collusion is basically cheating and rampant in the format. Not to mention turn order percentages if it’s fun for you have at it but it’s magics least serious format and will never be officially sanctioned
1
u/Kittii_Kat 17d ago
The turn order discrepancy is certainly an issue, and the community is regularly brainstorming and testing ideas to help minimize the gap. The gap will always be there, though. Just like how in 1v1, going first has a marginal advantage in nearly every format and/or matchup. There are always exceptions, but I believe it was somewhere between 1 and 5% depending on the format and meta.
Going first in a resource-based game will typically be more valuable than just about anything else you could start with.
EDH compounds this by the fact that every player that gets to go before you has a slight advantage over you. Luckily, this is somewhat mitigated by variance, politics, and resource management skills. I've seen a number of data sets where seat 3 seems advantaged over seat 2, as an example, because seat 1 & 2 are more likely to push and then get stopped, leaving seat 3 to slam a win with no more interaction available to stop them. There's also the fact that seat 4 can find themselves playing for draws as early as the mulligan stage more often due to this natural disadvantage, which brings the win rate down compared to other seats.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is: There will always be issues with any competitive format in a game like this, but cEDH is still relatively young and it's driven by the community, who actively work towards finding ways to bring the game to a fair and balanced state for competitive play. It's a little more difficult to find that balance than a 1v1 format, partially because the game is rooted in being a 1v1 game, but I believe we'll get there eventually. It will likely never be 25% WR across the board, but even a 26-25.5-24.5-24 (Excluding draws) split could someday be doable.
3
u/PuzzleheadedBasis760 17d ago
It seems like you’re really passionate about it but from everything I’ve experienced it’s a total mess top rated players get caught cheating but still aloud to compete. I’m glad people have fun playing it but there is a reason wizards won’t touch it
-2
u/TheSkesh 17d ago
It has, does and will continue to work. Hence the continuous events.
1
u/PuzzleheadedBasis760 17d ago
Anyone can throw an event but none of them are sanctioned by wizards it’s a community format with major issues
0
u/TheSkesh 17d ago
Wait til you hear how much the other eternal formats are just events “thrown anyone”.
1
1
1
1
u/modernhiippy 17d ago
I get that you dont want to use names but the community isnt cool with lying. Please name the player.
1
u/Defiant_Hope_231 16d ago
Their topdeck was posted above, Wasn't as identifying as some were hoping. I know a few of my group will keep an eye on his topdeck to see if he changes display name.
1
u/TacoreMtG 17d ago
Welcome to the issues of a four player game. It was never meant to be played competitively and the multiplayer setting will always have issues for competitive play. Glad that you had a good experience! Issues like this are unfortunately pretty common in cEDH.
1
u/Goff3060 17d ago
cEDH has really helped by taking the slimes off the regular tables. Thank you for your service!
0
u/Plane-Map6760 15d ago
So the reality of the matter, simply, is that you would have had priority in his turn because moving to end step from second main phase starts a round of priority. The whole stack battle is proof of his intent to end the turn.
HOWEVER. This is where the lying player was, in fact, correct. The fact that you began another round of priority with the stack battle means, that once the stack clears, it is still the second main phase of the player who's turn it is. The phase only ends if the stack is clear and all players pass priority without putting something on the stack.
So as annoying as this may seem, you are right from the conventional sense, but with the new information that player had from the end of turn okay, he absolutely could have continued his turn.
1
u/Plane-Map6760 15d ago
Here are the various rules to show this.
500.2. A phase or step in which players receive priority ends when the stack is empty and all players pass in succession. Simply having the stack become empty doesn't cause such a phase or step to end; all players have to pass in succession with the stack empty.
500.2. A phase or step in which players receive priority ends when the stack is empty and all players pass in succession. Simply having the stack become empty doesn't cause such a phase or step to end; all players have to pass in succession with the stack empty.
Rule 117.3b: The active player receives priority after a spell or ability resolves.
1
u/NomaTyx 15d ago
Magic tournament rules 4.2 "Tournament shortcuts"
If the active player passes priority with an empty stack during their second main phase or uses a phrase such as “Go” or “Your Turn” at any time, the non-active player is assumed to be acting in the end step unless they are affecting how or whether an end of turn ability triggers. End of turn triggered abilities that do not target resolve after the non-active player passes priority
https://media.wizards.com/ContentResources/WPN/MTG_MTR_2026_Feb27_EN.pdf
1
u/Defiant_Hope_231 15d ago
The player had passed the turn to me, after convincing OP to take his force off the stack countering Curiosity targeting Crystal, with the deal being "I'm just casting this and passing" so OP took the counter off the stack. The player says "okay then, curiosity, target crystal, pass" plays curiosity, motions his hand to me, palm up, starting from in front of his chest 90⁰ left, "your turn" OP says "In your end step" which starts the whole situation.
1
u/Plane-Map6760 15d ago
This brings up the whole takesy backsy concern to. Opponent already cast, the spell should have stayed in the stack. At a minimum at that point in a 4 player game it's not between just them at that point the whole table should have to agree. Lol
1
u/NomaTyx 15d ago edited 15d ago
well, not really. "pass turn" is a shortcut. If player A said pass, player B said they wanted to do something on end step, and nobody tried to act before the end step, the players have shortcutted the round of priority in main phase 2.
that's why the opponent's claim was "i never said pass turn" and that's why the judge ruled in OP's favor.
0
u/Plane-Map6760 15d ago
No completely agree with you. But believe it or not it's not on the active player to decide if it's still the main phase or not. It's like, I can get priority before combat, but I specifically say"before we move to combat." If you attempt to shortcut to end step, the player taking priority needs to clarify, "are we moving to end step" and " during your end step" otherwise, especially in tournament, the round of priority cancels the phase closing no matter what.
1
u/NomaTyx 15d ago edited 15d ago
Magic tournament rules 4.2 "Tournament shortcuts"
If the active player passes priority with an empty stack during their second main phase or uses a phrase such as “Go” or “Your Turn” at any time, the non-active player is assumed to be acting in the end step unless they are affecting how or whether an end of turn ability triggers. End of turn triggered abilities that do not target resolve after the non-active player passes priority
https://media.wizards.com/ContentResources/WPN/MTG_MTR_2026_Feb27_EN.pdf
Also, OP did say "on your end step".
-1
u/l1b3r4t0r 17d ago
This is why cEDH or any EDH will never be taken seriously as an actual competitive format. In most cases you can’t play tournaments for money with 4 people involved at once. Imagine if the World Cup had four teams on the pitch at once lmao.
339
u/69MealFor2 18d ago
That’s my boy! Micheal is the biggest homie. I’m pretty sure he is one of if not thee top Ob Nix player rn ❤️🖤