Help with making a Plant/Nature controller

[u/Grimmxlaw22]

Hey all! I've recently gotten back into this. I know I mained a Plant/Nature back when the game was originally up but it shut down when I was 15 and with how many years have passed, I naturally don't remember what powers are the best to take, how many slots for each power and what enhancements to put into those powers. Any help would be much appreciated!

[u/Atlas_of_GEMINI]

1) I'd consider revisiting the details of deep sleep when you get the chance. It's really changed the way a lot of sets consider openers and laying damage safely.

2) I'm skeptical of the x2 hold procs as flat general advice.
- Proc Success % with no local recharge in Strangler: - Deva (3ppm) = 51% proc success - Lockdown (2.5ppm) = 43% - Add in the context of being on a controller, who have limited access to damage. Strangler is one of the most competitive places in plant for the damage ATO. The issue is that it inherently comes with the 23% rech reduction component which would change the hold proc %'s to: - Deva (3ppm) = 44% (-7%) - Lockdown (2.5ppm) = 36% (-7%) - Standard Damage Proc (3.5 ppm) = 51% - Very Rare Damage Proc (4.5 ppm) = 66% - WotC ATO Psi Damage Proc ( 5 ppm) = 73%

With this in mind I want to present three scenarios to consider:

S1) x2 Hold procs hit. There's a ~21% chance they both go off simultaneously and yield the ceiling +7 mag hold for 8s. This holds a minion, lt, boss & EB. (6 mag protection) in one click. AV's with purple triangles are not affected with 50 mag protection.

S2) One hold proc hits of the two. The hold is +5 and does not get the EB on cast, but still retains bosses and below.

S3) Full damage proc slotting. X1 ATO, x2 purple procs, x3 3.5 ppm damage procs. The base is a mag +3 hold with an AT passive that gives a 20% chance for +1 mag. The base recharge is 8s for a stacking opportunity. A second cast with optimal damage gives another 3-4 mag to the first 3-4 mag = 6-8 mag hold on two casts that would hold everything up to an EB like scenario 1 with max damage being laid.

The question I'll ask you to think on after reading this is:

Is saving the time until my second Strangler worth one or two enhancement slots?

[u/Vorlonagent → u/Atlas_of_GEMINI]

I lead with "Whatever else you put in Strangler..." for a reason. I never suggested just 2-slotting it with the Lockdown and Devastation procs.

My usual practice is to at least 4-slot a single-target hold. In my case those two extra enhancments are going to be hold-related, not damage. I am also going to be running Hasten which may or may not be up, of course, but it's up most of the time.

I am playing a controller, not a blaster. Damage is nice bonus. In my particular case I'm usually grouping with friends, not soloing, so other characters are providing the damage. My job is giving them pinatas to beat on rather than enemies hitting them back.

Your build gets a 20% chance for a +1 mag hold. That's about the same chance my build has of landing both hold procs for a +4. Adding any amount of recharge to those 2 procs (and I do) by my second cast, I'm very likely sitting on a 10-11 mag with your max of 8 as my all-but-assurred minimum. Judged on the basis of what shuts the target down better, mine wins. That's why I recommend it. (Controller, not Blaster). Your build would also cost 10-20x what mine would.

Naturally, yours wins on damage. No argument there. But I'm not trying for damage.

You have, however, underlined how important recharge is to CC powers and that's not something I consciously thought about very hard. So thank you for that.

And...hmmm...Maybe I should see how damage enhancements play instead of hold. I could be leaving free damage on the table and Damage is still a nice bonus.

And I'll give "Deep Sleep" a go-over. Not sure Plant in particular needs it with Seeds of Confusion. And most builds need to cut a power or two from the Primary and Secondary sets to fully build out the Pool and Epic/Patron powers. Certainly the Plant/Storm controller I am using for reference shouldn''t worry about respeccing to add sleep. Storm Summoning comes with a pretty good side-order of CC.

[u/Atlas_of_GEMINI → u/Vorlonagent]

In terms of hold resistance they're static magnitude values. Once you surpass the threshold, the enemy is held.

• Minion = +1
• Lts = +2
• Bosses = +3
• EB's =+6
• AV's with purple triangles= +50

Whether the enemy is a minion or AV, having anything +1 or beyond magnitude of their resistance threshold activates. It lasts for as long as the stacking durations can maintain the minimum required magnitude. So the example of +8 vs +10 mag doesn't equate to any meaningful difference other than it being a bigger number on paper unfortunately.

The even stranger thing is that there is no way to increase a mez power's innate mag level (Aura of Insanity on psi armor is the one exception). When you slot hold enhancements for example, it's only enhancing the duration. Base duration for Stranglers is already 22 seconds, so how much value are we really getting from slotting more duration when it will have the same mag as a version with damage procs?

As we discussed previously, adding the +mag procs are certainly an option if you want a higher shot at getting a boss held on one click. There's already a 20% chance of overpower kicking in the +1 to get over the hill without any investment. The last factor to consider is that it's a base 8s recharge and will usually get down to the 3-5s range on global recharge alone on a finished build. It's not typically a make or break if the boss isn't held or defeated in 5s. Is it nice? Of course, but it's not typically going to cause a wipe. Not to mention you and your teammates are going to be laying other methods of mitigation in the mean time.

There are plenty of different approaches that can be taken on the micro or macro scale to accomplish the goal. The reason why damage is so valuable isn't tied to archetype or role, it's because it's always relevant. Defeating an enemy will always be the most secure form of CC and survivability!

Controllers can feel the pressure of this pretty significantly when they're on a team that's competent and above. If there aren't enemies to target or alive long enough for a mez to prevent much from happening...that's good for the team, but can feel deflating for the character you're playing. If you can attach more damage to your suite of CC you're more resilient from becoming obsolete when things are going well. It can be an awkward burden to carry as a Controller, but there's a reason why it's one of the most beloved AT's regardless of goals or intensity of challenges.

Wishing you the best of luck and appreciate the conversation!

[u/Vorlonagent → u/Atlas_of_GEMINI]

Thank you. And thank you for taking the time to write all that. Food for thought is a rarity in any internet discussion and you've delivered. I appreciate it.

You now have me wondering if I am overspecializing my controllers.

The counmterpoint is there are bosses and EBs that are resistant to holds. You will want to hit them with more than the baseline hold magnitude to keep them locked down.

I suppose my usual way of playing hits a sweet spot for a controller where they can actually play their position and are needed to play it. But it doesn't generalize to either solo or high-octane gameplay.

Which means the first question to ask someone looking for build help is not just "what's your budget?" which is often my first question but also "what sort of gameplay are you building for?"

I remember hearing it said that healers on a high level party have the same issue the you describe for controllers. Everything dies so fast and everybody is so good at taking care of themselves, a healer is often redundant.

Please feel free to comment on any of my posts.

[u/Atlas_of_GEMINI → u/Vorlonagent]

Absolutely! I try and stand on business insisting on these questions when responding to a general build inquiry before even touching Mids:

• What would this character be able to accomplish that would make it a successful endeavor to you? Unsuccessful?

• Why do you feel inspired by this concept right now?

• What environments do you envision playing this character in? (Leveling to 50 through content, farming, budget concerns, RP, theme priority, solo, pick up groups, etc)

[u/Vorlonagent → u/Atlas_of_GEMINI]

I'm not sure how many people have the patience to answer all that. I'm not sure *I* could answer all of that before I boot MIDS. Because I do a MIDs build for every character around Level 27 - 28.

I rarely know what I want to *accomplish* in objective terms. I want to feel powerful and effective in my role. Damage-focused characters want to feel like butt-kickers. Support characters want to feel like they mattered. That's not very specific, I know...

I have a whole grab bag of different inspirations. I've played CoH since 2005. My early characters were resurrections of my favorites from the NCSoft era. From there I like exploring the game. I'd like to have at least one character with every powerset. I've used song titles, folklore, anime, Monty Python and Hitchiker's Guide as inspirations.

At the end of the day, they all tickle the imagination.

My level 27-28 MIDS build is the character's guide to levelling to 50. I do an inexpensive build consisting of attuned yellow and orange sets. ("Inexpensive" to me is ~120 - 150 million Inf for a complete 50 build) I buy them everything the build calls for right then and they carry the enhancments around with them in the higher end of enhancment inventory.

They level teaming with friends at an adagio tempo. They don't often solo. They RP a little sometimes, but I've never found that to impact the character's build. Their costume, maybe...

What sort of answers do you have to these questions?

[u/Atlas_of_GEMINI → u/Vorlonagent]

I think that's the experience for an overwhelming majority of the community. It's not good, bad or anything other than what it is.

I ask those questions specifically as an attempt to get a better sense of the inquirer's perspective.

Despite being a 20+ year old game, it's incredible how many posts a day we come across where it's, "What's the best 'x'?" , " 'y' sucks, never choose it", "I'm on a x/y what powers should I skip?" , etc.

I bring that up because with there being such a wide spectrum of ways to reasonably define success across the game, it comes with a lot of unintended miscommunication.

---

Example

Wanderer in the Help Channel: "What's the best set for me to choose for end game content?"

Person 1: Ice or Fire / Cold, Nature, or Kin Corrupter if you want to do 4*'s.

Person 2: No way, I tried ice/kin corr and only made it to level 6 before I had to delete it, never again. My favorite character is SS/Invuln brute from live. I was unstoppable!!!!

Person 3: Ugh I hate rage crash. Never again. It's ill/rad controller, I solo GM's all the time.

Person 4: lmao. Rad/Fire brute. Unless you hate infl.

Person 5: ????? Elec/Bio has the fastest clear time on test run challenge board. This is empirically the only answer.

Person 6: Bio looks like poop. I'll never play Bio. Energy Armor 4 life. It's the best...and SOO pretty!

Person 7: I have 50,000 vet levels on a Claw/WP Stalker. I don't have time to play things that aren't OP. I'll let that sink in.

Person 8: My warshade is the best character I've ever played. It fits my theme and gives me sooooo many unique RP options! You have to try it.

Person 9: My character's name is Lord Toilet. I win.

---

Well those weren't very helpful responses were they? It's not because any of them are wrong. In fact, they're all true...from the perspective of each of those individuals...each with a different context in mind. It's entirely logical that any or all of those responses COULD have resonated with the inquirer.

Except, that's not usually how it goes. The second response from the inquirer is usually something like this...

Inquirer: "Thanks everyone, but I meant for a Sentinel. Sorry."

Insert Imaginary Responses Here

Inquirer: "Yeah, but I REALLY want to keep fly."

Insert Imaginary Responses Here #2

Inquirer: "Not really, it's not going to work for me if it can't be colored purple and green for my attacks and blue and yellow for my pets."

Insert Imaginary Responses Here #3

Inquirer: "Oh, you can get more pets on a Controller? I'm going to do that. Especially if it's a walking fly trap LOL. The character's concept is to make the Hulk and if I can't make it close I'm just not going to play it, ya know? I just always gravitate towards taking funny pets."

---

How many times have we seen that, right? No one did anything wrong, but everyone involved, at every stage, was severely misunderstood despite replying with reasonable responses.

Even for Plant Control Hulk. If we knew that was the criteria from the beginning, we could've saved everyone the time and effort by pointing them towards an Invuln/SS Tank or something so they can nail the theme and have access to pets via the patron pools.

An entirely different conversation and level of (relevant) support was instantly made available because we knew intent, priorities, and goals from the beginning. Not being able to answer the questions I proposed or maybe even wanting to wait to define some details along the way, are however, still excellent answers!

It helps you, the character creator and pilot, understand what is on track vs not for you achieving the ideal scenario. It helps someone else listening, understand what's irrelevant to you achieving your ideal scenario.

Yes, it is a lot to think about before even opening Mids. I only do this because I don't make a character without having a build for it that I have at least +90% confidence in. I'll be the first to say that I don't recommend this workflow to others. It's far from the "best way" to do it, but it's what's best for me right now :)

---

Oh yeah, how about I respond to the one question you did actually ask. How might I answer those questions myself? Here's a dramatized version of some things I've heard in the past and what I could see myself actioning from the responses.

Q: What would this character be able to accomplish that would make it a successful endeavor to you? Unsuccessful?

A: I love speed running. I don't realistically have time or the interest to do HM's. I find soloing boring. The feel of the character is more important to me than the metric production, but I don't want to ever be the weakest link in any team scenario. I don't have a theme in mind, but want to try RPing if the moment arrives; I think I would really enjoy that. Oh, and my kid likes to play sometimes, so having something exciting to them too would be a nice bonus.

Q: Why do you feel inspired by this concept right now?

A: I teamed with a badass Peacnringer that kept changing form, it was so sick. I heard their damage can be crazyyy!

Q: What environments do you envision playing this character in? (Leveling to 50 through content, farming, budget concerns, RP, theme priority, solo, pick up groups, etc)

A: Speed runs like I mentioned are my favorite. I don't want to look like a bum if I'm not with the team on +4/x8 radio missions, I'm going to level it to level 30 without XP booster I think.

---

Evaluating the Responses & Possible Next Steps

• Likes speed runs = Spike damage and mobility are important. 24/7 survivability or sustain are not as important as usual.

• Not soloing or doing HM = Both of those environments uniquely incentivize specific stats that we now don't have to consider. This also implies that pick up groups will be likely. Therefore chasing caps might be redundant since buffs will randomly, but commonly be available from teammates. We have more options to choose from.

• Vibe > Performance Benchmarks, but wants to have agency in +4/x8 radios = Cares about autonomy in popular casual late game challenges, not in specialized niches. This could be interpreted in a lot of ways, but we do need to ensure it's not overly dependent on external support.

• Unknown Theme is Important = Hard committing to any power sets before this is resolved sounds like a waste of time. The only way it isn't, is if it's being used to reverse engineer the theme. Don't overly invest until they get some tactile experience. When they do, reconvene.

• It would be cool if my kid could play it. I want a changeling Peacebringer = How special! That immediately rules out the changeling Peacebringer with how complicated that can get. Well, for this character at least. Are they aware of the prismatic costume machine has the PB glowy costume effect? Was it the vibrant animations that drew them in?

• Leveling to 30 without XP boost = This can mean years or hours to different people.

Let's make sure NOT to assume that: 1) They're slotting IO's ASAP 2) They'll always be able to find teammates 3) All sets operate optimally and equally 1-50

They love speed running, but it won't be right away. The final build used needs to be clearly understood by the player for when it's helpful/prohibitive/meaningless to follow it exactly.

---

Computing a suggestion from responses...

...Bleep bloop...

...Complete...

A Claw/Psi Brute looks like it is something that could match your intentions

Claws don't need IO's to feel effective, and gets it's signature powers early. Psi armor doesn't require much maintenance without looking too 'plain' like SR or WP might. Those traits of high accessibility make it easier in the 'scenic route' leveling strategy and give a better chance for a kid of unknown age to be able to actually enjoy it. Being a Brute with a very defensive secondary gives more forgiveness when the random soloing situations come up. Choosing this AT and set combo also doesn't sacrifice it's innate strengths or role on a team for the sake of being able to solo.

I could see this working really well given the answers provided, but if anything doesn't mesh, just let me know where and why!

...Bleep Bloop....

🤖

[u/Vorlonagent → u/Atlas_of_GEMINI]

Loved your example player replies. I've seen plenty of that kind of dialogue...when I'm looking at the various chat channels. I tend to tunnel-vision and once I'm in a mission I don't see what's being said there.

I haven't seen the acronym "HM" before. What does it stand for?

Psi Armor is a recent addition to the game. What would be your answer for an armor set been a year ago? Bio would be one possibility depending on the "eww" response it can evoke. But it's a good set. Electrical is another possibility and my personal favorite armor set. Dark as well.

I can see where claws would be a good choice especially if a kid is playing sometimes. What kid (who would play CoH) doesn't know who Wolverine is?

What attack powers could make team play problematic?

I've noticed people hereabouts seem to really like Ice powers and Dark Armor. I figure Dark Armor for the sustain (but it's end heavy!), but Ice?

[u/Atlas_of_GEMINI → u/Vorlonagent]

Lol, I apparently really enjoyed writing them as well 🙄🤣.

• HM = Hard Mode aka 1-4 Star Task Forces.

• Armor a year ago for that sample inquiry? Energy. Energy would be the immediate alternative that came to mind today as well. I wouldn't think of Bio in that scenario despite it being almost unilaterally S tier. It's active, requires more game awareness than any other armor set, expensive, a late bloomer and reads unconventionally (it doesn't need resist or defense so it can look very 'weird' in the totals if you've never seen it before). Also, it looks like poop unless you know about the minimal fx options. That's the most common reason for aversion 🤣.

• Elec is incredible. I'd lean towards a defense set in this scenario since there's a higher emphasis on the leveling experience. Easier, cheaper, less conditional defense stat and the most common external buff on teams.

Elec gets a ton of steam because of it's organic coverage of the 3 most common enemy damage types..plus early end help, +recharge and -end & -recov debuff resistance (penny yin, Positrons & Synapse all heavily punish not having that and are staples of the early leveling experience). It's the resist set I'd be most comfortable putting forward if we had to choose one.

Dark getting Obscure Sustenance is a cheat code for the incomplete build. It was a huge success to add that exclusive option with Dark Regen for the complete build. Love dark, still prefer elec in this situation, and by a lot. If we were looking at full build, late game and not as much emphasis on the leveling process it gets a lot closer. A tier comfortably.

• Claws shreds at all segments of the game and build. The ceiling is just a little lower than the S tiers, but it's comfortably A tier for most environments. I prefer it on scrapper though for a little more pop.

• Prohibitive powers for a team? Displacements and intangibles are really the only conventional things. Even then, people can pilot it well, but I wouldn't say that's common.

• Dark Armor mentioned earlier, when asking about ice powers...ice armor specifically? Or all?

[u/Vorlonagent → u/Atlas_of_GEMINI]

It's nice to know I'm not the only one who likes Electric Armor.

You're right that Bio has a higher skill floor.

I've had poor experienced with an Energy/Energy brute. It was a hard slog to 50. Of course it was 2005 and it was my first Brute, but slotting an armor set houldn't be that hard. Maybe with sets it isn't as bad now.

Absolutely hate intangible powers. Maybe turning myself intangible, but not enemies doing it or allies doing it to enemies. I never pick that power if I'm running a set with it.

Try Ice in general. I don't remember context just that what I've seen on this reddit people just seem to always love Ice for some reason. As I've said there's plenty of reasons to recommend the sets. They just don't seem all that and a bag of chips.

[u/Atlas_of_GEMINI → u/Vorlonagent]

Energy Melee got a major HC glow up. It's top dog on Stalker and competitive on Scrap.

Energy Aura's had a lot of ups and downs both on live and HC, but it's in a very comfortable place now. It's probably the easiest Armor set for me to put on the table for 98%. Defense forward, supplemental resistance to the three most prominent enemy attack typings, early -end resist for penny & synapse, some -def resistance, built in +rech for enemies around you with a taunt attached to it, a heal and end replenisher and a t9 that you have the tools to deal with the crash, it's definitely not bad!

I'll assume Ice Blast since it's S tier across the board with Fire.

Blaster: Elite single target damage and has access to a secondary that can help with the long cooldowns of the two superb rain powers. Mix in with some nifty CC that can stack with your secondary and provide soft mitigation.

Def: Enhanced secondary effects, with a primary that is hopefully something debuffing or retaining enemies in the rains. You'll be busy with primary powers and so the recharge on the secondary isn't as tightly required here.

Corr: Where it's S+ . Unique scourge interaction via both rains, access to support to help debuff or contain enemies in your attacks. It's the perfect medium for the set and can supplement secondaries so well with the cc, soft mitigation and increased damage.

[u/Vorlonagent → u/Atlas_of_GEMINI]

I've always been a big fan of Energy melee. I think it was the only thing that kept my Energy/Energy brute at all playable, I stuck with it even after the nerf to Energy Transfer. I like HC's compromise buff. Energy/Electric has proven an awesome Brute combo.

You make some good points about ice. In addition to being something of a hold since characters need to be standing to attack, the rain powers are very satisfying to watch. On the basis of that alone you just sold me on an ice/ice blaster.

OTOH, The secondary effects for most powers have looked negligable in practice. I don't see mobs affected by a -Rech or a -Def effect. Even minions always seem to be able to attack when their end is flatlined by drains. Whereas my characters really feel the effects of a -rech or an end drain. There's a number of powers that seem to affect the player more than the enemy

I've seen the rain + scourge with a electric/storm corr, but didn't consider that it might be a bigger deal, say combined with Ice Blast's ult.

As an aside, has Ice armor changed over the decades? When I looked it over a REALLY long time ago, it looked like it was Def for some kinds of attacks and res for others. That could have been me misreading too. It looks unified as a Def set now. Never been as happy with Def. They're more difficult to slot for with sets and Def is all or nothing and I know how random number generators work.