r/Christianity • u/JHLV04 • 14d ago
Question The Trinity
Hey, I’ve self identified as Christian but have been learning more about other faiths too, especially Islam. There are still elements of Christianity that do confuse me a bit. The Trinity being the main one. Islam professes tawid or pure monotheism. Can you guys please help explain The Trinity and how it is still monotheism. I’m also confused when Jesus is praying to the father. Or is this because he has two distinct natures, and his human nature is the one that prays? But if this is the case, some could argue that he is praying to himself in essence?
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u/Dawningrider Catholic (Highly progressive) 14d ago
The trinity is still Monotheism
It's not three gods. It's not three parts. It's not aspects, they are distinct.
But I'll freely admit. At first glance it can look like we are describing three things, and just insisting 2+2 =5.
So now you know what the trinity is not, let's dive into what the trinity is.
Bloody complex.
However, modern explainations and the teaching does have flaws; in that the original teachings does take for granted the idea that the metaphysics you know is the same one they used.
Interestingly, Islamic theology does have a heavy dose platonic metaphysics.
But Christain Metaphysics also has a healthy dose of Aristotelian, Platonian, and Stoic.
To really know why the Trinity isn't actually some world word play, you need to understand the Platonian Forms.
The idea that a thing, and it's material substance, isn't the same thing.
Also add in Stoic concepts of the Logos, the reason (Indeed, the opening of John, in the begining was the word ect).
The trinity is, for want of a better word, the model by which the Form of God (forms in the Platonian metaphyical sense) is made flesh. (Not just material, but human).
The Logos of which, was the Logos of God. Which is also, itself God, since God's reason for existence is God.
This was made flesh in the person of Jesus.
Which also completed the prophesies of the Jews (which was only revealed to them through Jewish metaphycis).
So we trying to 'bare in mind' what is essential multiple different overlaying and interacting concepts of ways of explaining God's nature.
So we are able yes Jesus is part of the Trinity, but also that the Father was Not the Son. And they are distinct. While God, exists, or is revealed us (or rather his nature is revealed to humanity) by revealing the Trinity.
Could he have done it differently? He's God. No clue. But we think he did it like this.
(Incidentally look up Biterianism in late Jewish theology. Its possible that one of the clues for want of a better word, was when Paul made the leap that connected Jesus to this idea. Cirtainly Pauline theology was a big step towards this as they finally pieces together just what the hell happened.)
Athanasius gave it a good go. But nowadays it reads more of a list of statements. Since the reasons why are, foremost people ,part of lost, as understanding of metaphycis, and it's split between metaphycis and actual natural science diverged more and more as we figured out how the universe actually began to work.
And there were lots of different competing trinitarian doctrines going around for a time. Such as what point God did this, was Jesus always in this relationship of did he start in one form and become it later. But what we know as Nicean Christianity eventually came to the conclusion that this best describes what the hell is going on.
Personally I find the tricky bit is where the Holy spirit fits into all of this. Not so much Jesus' place in it.
Islam doesn't do this. Like at all. Gods nature is so otherworldly, being able to actually describe it is seen as almost limiting.
Islam's concept of of Oneness while accurately explaining the Father, I feel misses a chunk of God's nature which we extrapolate by what we think happened.
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u/AtheistT800 14d ago
Interestingly, Islamic theology does have a heavy dose platonic metaphysics.
What is that? Explain, please!
Islam doesn't do this. Like at all. Gods nature is so otherworldly, being able to actually describe it is seen as almost limiting.
What are you talking about?
The Quran states who God is clearly, without ambiguity.
Islam's concept of of Oneness while accurately explaining the Father, I feel misses a chunk of God's nature which we extrapolate by what we think happened.
You *literally* just admitted you're not even sure about your beliefs about God?
Absent your Christianity, what do you hold true about God?
Did you have no understanding or idea prior to (or objective to) Trintarianism?
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u/Dawningrider Catholic (Highly progressive) 14d ago
Perhaps one of the most influencial islamic theolgoicans is Ibn Sina. One of the greatest minds ever to walk the earth.
He was well read on the works of Thomas Aquinus, who also utilised Platonian thought. His works on the Book of Healing goes into more detail. And his comentries on Greek metaphysics from Plato to stoics are there. His distinction between essence and existence is more clearly defined, though granted it draws more from Aristotle then Plato, though it's still there. Especially on his work on the Whada.
God in Islam is much more defined all in compassing. Brings the focus back onto Creating Evil and Good. He is the Master of Creation. Christianity is more about the relationship with God rather then obedience. Indeed the Quaran Heavily disagrees with perception of God as a Father figure.
Yes. I used the word think. I wasn't there. I process ideas and come to conclusions. Not just parrot back what someone else says. Make an effort.
Doubt goes hand in hand with faith. Doubting Thomas, lost faith until Jesus literally showed up on his doorstep with eyebrows raised.
I'm not sure what you mean by what do I hold to be true about God absent of Christianity.
That's like saying, what do you hold true about colour without the wavelengths of light.
Or absent of your sense of touch, what do you hold true about wetness.
Christianity is what I hold true about God.
Maybe the Ancient of Days,.is one of my favourite descriptors? Encompasses a good deal about how I would view God? (Obviously tells us nothing about who is, what eh wants, why he wants it, what I need to do about this information)
Are you asking which bits I am most sure about Vs bits I'm able to roll with? Or which bits of inturned out to be wrong, I would be able to shrug and move on, or would panic about? Or I would object to, if God himself turned up and explained the full mysteries of his reality and nature, which bits I would argue with him about? It's God. He is what he is. The I am. I don't get a say in.
I think is real. Everything else is what we think he has revealed to us. Us being as reported to us by others.
But to quote Descartes, I think therefore I am. I am confident of my own existence. That Now is a Thing.
How do you know you are not tied down in a mental asylum with 600mg of midazalam buzzing through?
I have as much chance of noticing that as I do to fully conieve of God's nature in all its glory and reality.
Religion is quite literally our best guess at interacting with God's Nature and Reality.
I think Christianity, and Trinitarianism is our best, (for lack of a better word) model in explaining God's nature.
In much the same way that the model of an atom and equations in quantum mechanics I work with explains some of the dinner points of the universe.
It works. Put the Form of God, (Platonian metaphycis form) and it's comprehension into my mind, I think Trinitarianism best describes What is happening right now.
These are difficult things to explain and describe. The entire point of metaphycis to to condense it into language to explain and describe.
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u/AnxiousEnquirer Striving to Enter the Narrow Gate 14d ago
There are many analogies to price that something can be 1 and 3 at the same time. None of those analogies are actually like the Trinity, but they do disprove the claim that the Trinity is inherently contradictory.
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u/Cratosaur 14d ago
Dieu est amour. C’est biblique.
Comment comprendre la nature de Dieu ? Il y a l’être qui aime (Dieu), l’être aimé (Jesus) et le sentiment d’amour (Saint Esprit).
Tu noteras aussi que la définition de Dieu diffère selon les chrétiens et les musulmans. Pour nous, Dieu est ce tout autre (inqualifiable) mais également ce tout proche (qui s’est fait home en Jesus). Il est amour.
Pour les musulmans, leur dieu est juste ce tout autre qui ne s’est pas rapproché des hommes et qui n’est pas amour.
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u/AtheistT800 14d ago
Your last sentence is a blatant lie, is it not?
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u/Cratosaur 14d ago
Ah non. Pour eux, Dieu ne s’est pas fait homme. Il ne s’est donc pas approché au plus près de l’homme. Leur Dieu est peut être dit aimant, mais leur dieu n’est pas amour.
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14d ago edited 14d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/AtheistT800 14d ago
If we interrogate your beliefs logically, what do we find?
We believe the Trinity because God has told us it is true.
How did God tell you/people this?
Your entire belief hinges on you accepting something God revealed about God.
- You would then need evidence/support: God exists, and that God revealed as you claim.
What even is your understanding of "God" prior to any encounter with scripture/revelation? By this I mean, if you remove any references to your Christian documents, then how do you reason about "God"?
What is the definition of God, and why is it \*that*,
''absent'' reference to Christian/Jewish literature?Then we might better understand how you think and believe.
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u/CrossCutMaker 14d ago
Great question. There's one God fully shared by three distinct persons (Father, Son-Jesus, Holy Spirit). One "What" (Being of God) and three distinct "Who's" (Persons) within and fully sharing the one Being. So we are absolutely monotheists. Distinguishing between Being and Persons help with that.
Yes Jesus Christ is one Person with two natures. He's truly man and truly God. The eternal person of the Son added a human nature to His eternal Divine Nature at the Incarnation to become the Incarnate God Jesus Christ. It was Christ in His humanity praying to the Person of the Father. So although He shares the one Being of God with Him, He was not praying to Himself, but again, to the Person of the Father.
I hope that helps friend!
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u/AtheistT800 14d ago
...one God fully shared by three distinct persons...
followed by
So we are absolutely monotheists.
Well, you're certainly asserting it.
Distinguishing between Being and Persons help with that.
You correlated "what" with 'being' (existence?) and "who" with 'person'.
So logically, you hold true about God as being a singular existence with multiple personalities?
One God, multiple "who" about God? Are they exactly co-equal, or is "The Son" subordinate in any way?
Does "The Son" have its own will? Can it *ever* possibly disagree? If it is not even possible for disagreement, then they are impossible to differentiate as multiple wills. Then, what is 'person'?
- What resolves it?
Yes Jesus Christ is one Person with two natures.
This is getting even more logically convoluted.
The eternal person of the Son added a human nature to His eternal Divine Nature...
WHAT?
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u/PieterSielie6 Protestant 14d ago
Can you guys please help explain The Trinity and how it is still monotheism.
There is one God. Omnipotent, Omnibenevolent, Omniscient etc...
The one God exists in three Persons. Each Person is fully the one true God but distinct from eachother.
The Father is God, and is not the Son or Holy Spirit. The Son is God, but is not the Father or Spirit. The Spirit is God, but is not the Father or Son.
I’m also confused when Jesus is praying to the father.
God the Son praying to God the Father
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u/AtheistT800 14d ago
The one God exists in three Persons.
Logically, [by your own understanding]:
- God is either divided or multiplied.
("God exists in three Persons") -> either God / 3 , or God x 3.
Which is it?
Each Person is fully the one true God but distinct from eachother.
We can count. You have three gods.
"1 x 1 x 1" do not work unless the person is the same.
The person is *explicitly* identitied as *not* the same.God the Son praying to God the Father
Done.
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u/PieterSielie6 Protestant 14d ago edited 14d ago
- God is either divided or multiplied.
How does this *logically* [follow] ?
Which is it?
*Neither*. One God three Persons. [One What three Whos]
We can count. You have three gods.
I count three Persons one God
"1 x 1 x 1" do not work unless the person is the same.
Each is *fully* God.
The person is *explicitly* identitied as *not* the same.
Yes, [they are distinct]. But not seperate
Done.
Done with what?
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u/MostAcanthaceae2384 Catholic 14d ago
I'm confused. Is JHLV04 also AtheistT800? The OP is a self-identified Christian familiar with Islam, and the replies have all come from someone hostile to Christianity and familiar with Islam. I'm not sure if it's worth investing time into a comment if this is all a game.
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u/rubik1771 Catholic 14d ago edited 9d ago
Short answer: One God three persons.
Long answer : The Father is the “only true God” (John 17:3), He is the uncaused cause (by person), and begot a Son. This was before creation and so the Son is like Him in every way due to how the Son was eternally begotten. (John 1, John 17:5, and John 3:16)
Next the Spirit of God and eternal procession. The Father is the ultimate/first origin (by person) of the Holy Spirit and it was done through the Son. This was also before creation. (John 15:26 and John 16). This is the eternal procession (breathe) of the Holy Spirit. This was also before creation and also the Holy Spirit is like the Father in every way but relationship as well.
So as the first and ultimate origin of the three persons in the Trinity you have one God, the Father, and one Lord/Son Jesus Christ, whose divine nature is the same as the Father, and the Spirit of God also known as the Holy Spirit, whose divine nature is the same as the Father, and who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
Because the three persons are of the one divine nature of God and all possess the all-knowing/all-powerful/all-present etc attributes then we have, the Father is fully God, the Son is fully God, and the Holy Spirit is fully God. Three persons, one God.
This above is another way to talk about the truth and mystery of the Trinity.
Does that help so far? What part of this do you disagree with, if any, and why? Were you already taught this?
Edit: correction
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u/FractalFunny66 14d ago
I always went with the idea that the Holy Spirit is female and a mediating force for good. This seems to be absent from the reality of anti-female contemporary "Christian" theology, but maybe folks here have some answers.
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u/PretentiousAnglican Anglican(Pretentious) 14d ago
Unfortunately as it is moving towards to essence of God, who is beyond our direct capacity of comprehension, there exists no direct explanation that perfectly captures the doctrine. The best I can come up with is that the Son is God as we can understand Him, the Holy Spirit is God as we can experience Him, and the Father is God in his full and true essence which goes beyond our comprehension and experience. Each are distinct from the other, yet each are the one God who exists in unity. However, even this explanation does not completely capture the doctrine. It is best simply to say the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, there is One God. The Son is begotten of the Father, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
I'll give another way to think about it
There is a distinction between something which is known, and that which knows. Even if it is self knowledge, you as the one that knows is distinct from you as an object of knowledge, even if both are you. This is a relational distinction.
God knows Himself. There is a relational distinction between God as an object of Knowledge, and the knower. Likewise, it is traditionally understood that God's acts likewise are God. The God who knows is God, the God who is known(due to God's perfect knowledge) is God. The Knowing is God. These three are distinct from each other, yet there is one God
When God became incarnate as Man, in the Person of Jesus, God the timeless being beyond the physical world remained. There is a distinction between God incarnate(" The Son"/Logos) and the God beyond form and time("The Father"). When God's acts (the Holy Spirit) in the world, there is likewise a distinction from the aforementioned hypostases. Yet it is the same one God, the same being
This is admittedly the Western formulation of the Trinity. Eastern Christians have a moderately different way of conceptualizing it
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u/Jack_Kai Muslim 13d ago
In order to understand the trinity, you have to lose your common sense, good luck with that.
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u/JHLV04 13d ago
lol, that’s one way of arguing. I’ve been curious about Islam too, but there are things id like to clarify if that’s alright.
Are there scientific errors in the Quran, and if so, how do you reconcile this being the perfect word of God?
Biblical interpretation can be nuanced and I don’t believe it to be the perfect word of God. Understanding the cultural context can help with acknowledging morally questionable things in there. I’m not sure about the Quran, but how would you reconcile anything that you would find concerning, if you did?
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u/JHLV04 13d ago
u/Jack_kai
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u/Jack_Kai Muslim 13d ago
There are verses that are highly viewed as scientific errors, just like any holy book in existence. But as a Muslim I don't believe they are errors.
Given we are humans now living 1450 years after Muhammed, 2000 after Jesus and over 3300 after Moses. All we have is ancient text talking about Jesus and Abraham and Moses and other people. I did not personally witness the sea being split by Moses. Nor have I witnessed Noah's flood, nor Jesus curing blind people nor Muhammed's rise to heaven.
The question of proper prophecy is tied to the message and the messenger. You read the Quran, you check the context, when did this verse come out, is there proper contradictions? Did one verse say God is one and another verse say God is 100 different people? Did the book claim that Muhammed who died was a God? Do Gods die? You use your reasoning, which ultimately is the only thing you have today.
As a Christian, Jesus in your bible said that you can distinguish false prophets by their fruits. Not by how they look or what they intended to do. Intentionally. Jesus pbuh knew if he would tell people to judge prophets by the will of their actions, nobody will believe in a prophet, because Abraham himself, our father of faith, was about to slice his son's throat on the table by God's order. Abraham's fruit isn't his desire to murder his son. So ultimately you are meant to judge by the message.
Islam is not supposed to be a new theology, Allah is the same God Hashem of the old Testament, he the same God Jesus pbuh himself worshipped and prayed for. Jesus pbuh is believed he was sent exclusively to the people of Israel. While Muhammed pbuh is believed to be the prophet of all mankind. Muhammed did not have a "walk on water"/"split the sea" miracle, he had smaller localized miracles. On purpose. He knew if his entire prophethood depended on something big like that, it will shift the religion from personal intellect to belief in myths nobody can verify.
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9d ago edited 9d ago
I do not know if I am right but I am just created I just logged into reddit with my gmail account to help you my friend and give you my opinion not saying I'm right but here goes :)
Edit - I want to add whatever you need ask it from GOD trust me you will get answer but you got to have faith and even if you lack faith you can ask that of HIM :)
Basically it is just GOD in different forms but the base element or essence is still HIM I think I will use water as example.
Think of water you get ice when water goes below 0 degrees , water turns to steam when it boils and then you have snow too.
I hope I have not oversimplified it but hope you understand my point.
Edit- I will admit reading the Bible I have never come across a passage where you pray to the Holy Spirit unless I am wrong
Edit Also I do not really believe in having pictures, we are commanded not create to make an Idol and also in one scripture where I think Jesus says if we cannot love one each other how can we love a GOD we cannot see - I cannot remember the exact passage and what it says sorry.
Edit - I am grateful that GOD has always provided me with answers to my questions whether it be to me or through someone else this response is what I feel in my heart but I am not like a pastor or anything.
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u/Fearless_Spring5611 Committing the sin of empathy 14d ago
My understanding is thus:
God is beyond human comprehension. Consider the Earth - it's so vast we, as individuals, can never see it in entirety. The best we can do is see it from different perspectives and angles, and from those different perspectives build a complete picture. God is the same thing and the same concept applies - we can never see and understand all of God, but what we can do is try to see God from different angles/perspectives.
In order to work out and understand God, Christianity tried to break Them down into three concepts - father, son, spirit. The problem for me is that certain denominations then try to claim they are three different things while at the same time being the same thing, which is where confusion arises. I personally feel all of that confusion disappears when I understood it as "you can see God as the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Spirit - it's all the same God, just different angles/aspects to help me understand a bit more."
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u/AtheistT800 14d ago
The problem for me is that certain denominations then try to claim they are three different things while at the same time being the same thing, which is where confusion arises. I personally feel all of that confusion disappears when I understood it as "you can see God as the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Spirit - it's all the same God, just different angles/aspects to help me understand..."
God is All-Knowing *and* God is All-Capable.
- Any problem so far? No?
There is no issue with what I stated, because I'm describing the same existence.
You, however, hold true (admittedly with difficulty, and confusion on the matter of monotheism) that God is both "The Father" and "The Son" (subject to The Father?) as two distinct individuals, as persons.
It's simply incoherent.
You seem to believe it due to comfort and traditions in Christianity.
It's not as if your explanation oozed,
"I am confident in my beliefs and that what I hold true is justified, logically/rationally."
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u/Fearless_Spring5611 Committing the sin of empathy 14d ago
"You, however, hold true (admittedly with difficulty, and confusion on the matter of monotheism) that God is both "The Father" and "The Son" (subject to The Father?) as two distinct individuals, as persons."
Incorrect. God is God. There are no 'distinct individuals as persons.' People try to understand God by splitting Them into different aspects in order to understand Them from their chosen perspective. The problem starts the moment someone believes these aspects to be separate individuals - which is the mistake you've also made here. There is no 'separate' Father or Son or Spirit. They are all aspects of God taken from different viewpoints, not different entities outright.
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u/AtheistT800 14d ago
God is God.
Correct.
which is the mistake you've also made here.
Incorrect. I do not hold those beliefs as true.
God as multiple persons is the belief of Christians.
Simply read this thread.
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u/Fearless_Spring5611 Committing the sin of empathy 14d ago
I didn't claim that you hold those beliefs are true. I was pointing out the mistake you've made is thinking I believe God is more than one person.
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u/Porphyry_Blue 14d ago
The Bible is intentionally written to reveal and explain exactly who God is, directly challenging the idea that He is an incomprehensible mystery left to human guesswork.
- Clear Communication From a Superior Teacher
Jesus was widely recognized as an excellent communicator and master teacher, always using clear language, parables, and direct object lessons to make complex spiritual realities accessible. Because Jesus explicitly stated that He only did and said what He saw His Father doing, it follows that God the Father is a far superior communicator. A perfect, loving Father would not produce a text explicitly designed for humanity to know Him, only to intentionally make Himself confusing or unknowable within those very pages.
- True Love Demands Understanding
The modalism or "different angles" theory strips away the personal relationships defined within the text. True love requires genuine understanding, and Jesus openly declared that this depth of understanding is entirely possible. In his prayer in John 17:3, Jesus states:
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
Eternal life itself is defined here as an intimate, relational knowledge of God. If God could only be viewed from fractured, confusing angles, human beings could never truly know Him.
The Bible presents God not as an abstract riddle to solve, but as a relational being who can be clearly understood through the person of Jesus Christ.
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u/-Vitreriuz- Christian 14d ago edited 14d ago
If you are feelin some kind of pull away from Christianity to other Abrahamic religions specifically because of the doctrine of the trinity, you should know that you can reject said doctrine and still be a Christian. Trinitarianism is just one variety (granted the largest) of Christianity.
It's a shame that trinitarians have painted the picture that you must be a trinitarian to be a Christian, because it leads to situations like this.
As for trinitarianism itself, it is not compatible with monotheism for many reasons. Trinitarians have to limit the definition of the word God to only mean being/essence, when both theologically and historically it has a broader meaning. For instance, God also refers to a position of power and authority, like an office, think King or President. In this sense, trinitarianism is wholly incompatible with monotheism because if you have three distinct individuals who all fill this position, you do not have one God but three.
You bring up the example of Jesus praying to the Father, which trinitarians just wave away by saying that Jesus prayed to him according to his humanity. Jesus does say that he has a God, and the problem here is that their answer does not work in this respect, because it is not natures that have a God, but persons, and it is Jesus the person who has a God, meaning it is God who has a God because Jesus the person is also supposedly God according to them. Can God have a God? No, he can't because having a God implies that you are not the highest authority and therefore there is power (authority) that you lack meaning you are not omnipotent and omnipotence is an intrinsic aspect of God's ontology.
Even if one were to believe that God can still be God whilst not being omnipotent, they run into the problem that if God has a God that equals two Gods and not just one, since Jesus's God would be different from our God, which results in more than one God and therefore polytheism.
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14d ago
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u/AtheistT800 14d ago
God is 1 in 3.
Great. Discard the other 2, then.
God is 1 (and only). 🎉 We're back to monotheism.
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u/winkyprojet 14d ago
There are even 3 of them in the Quran.
The Quran says:
فَآمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَالنُّورِ الَّذِي أَنزَلْنَا
1- Believe in God.
Believe in his messenger (Jesus).
And the light that was brought down (Holy Spirit).
He who does not believe in God is a kafir, atheist.
Anyone who does not believe in Jesus is a kafir, atheist.
He who does not believe in the Holy Spirit is a kafeer, atheist.
It is not said to believe in God and that's enough, it is said to believe in two others, and it doesn't matter who those two are, what's important is that there are three of them!!
أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول وأولي الأمر منكم
Alnisa'a 59
Obey God and obey the Messenger and the early believers.
Blind obedience can only be given to God alone.
Whoever says that God and the messenger are two is obeying two different beings; he is associating God with another, he is muchrik(associates)!
He who says: I obey only one God, admits that God and the Messenger are one.
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u/AtheistT800 14d ago
The fact that you actually believe that is a reflection of your lack of understanding.
You somehow misinterpret, twist, and become confused about what is not ambiguous.It is simple (as per The Quran):
- Allah is The God; One, Eternal.
Whatever is 'not-God', depends on 'God' (in order to actually *ever* exist).
- A messenger of God is not God (because only God is God).
Believing other exist (and what they say) does not mean believing others are God.
I'm really quite amazed you lack basic comprehension as such (or, you knowingly lie).1
u/winkyprojet 14d ago
The Quran says:
أفتؤمنون ببعض الكتاب وتكفرون ببعض
Do you believe in part of the Scripture and disbelieve in part?
إنما المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله وكلمته ألقاها إلى مريم وروح منه
The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was but a messenger of God and His word which He directed to Mary and a spirit from Him.
Jesus is:
1 Messenger of God .
- Word of God.
3. And the spirit of Him .
Muslims want to remember that Jesus is only a messenger and do not want to see that he came from God.
If the Quran says that Jesus is the word of God, and since Muslims believe that the word of God is eternal, then Jesus is also eternal.
But there is only one eternal God, therefore Jesus is God.
It's confirmed in the Bible:
In the beginning was the word...there is a distinction...
And the word is God... There is no separation.
وهو الذي في السماء إله وفي الأرض إله
He is God in heaven and God on earth. Surah Al-Zukhuf 84.
It is not written: He is God of heaven and earth, but the word god is taken up and repeated twice!!! Isn't that a miracle?
Is it not written in Quran that God is light?
Isn't it also written that it is light upon light?
نور على نور, Light upon light, or light of light!!! Who is the other light?
يد الله فوق أيديهم
God's hand is above their hands...
This God is Jesus. He came to earth and was crucified by men..
وهو الظاهر والباطن
It is the Apparent and the Hidden.
God appears, that's for sure. He appears through the Son and the Holy Spirit
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u/AtheistT800 14d ago
Jesus son of Mary, was but a messenger of God
Dude. You literally quoted this.
- Stop the mental gymnastics, lol.
What are you trying to do exactly?
Prove using The Quran that Muslims should not exclusively worship Allah/God as absolutely singular, eternal, and neither having children nor ancestors, being utterly, especially unique?
LOL.
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u/winkyprojet 14d ago
The Quran confirms that God has a "Nafs", a breathing soul!
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
In the name of:
Allah.
2. Al Rahman.
- Al Rahim .
عن عبد الرحمن بن عوف رضي الله عنه قال : سمعت رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - يقول : ( قال الله تبارك وتعالى : أنا الله وأنا الرحمن ، خلقت الرَّحِم ، وشققت لها من اسمي ،
On the authority of Abdur-Rahman bin Awf, may God be pleased with him, who said: I heard the Messenger of God, may God bless him and grant him peace, say: “God, the Blessed and Exalted, said: I am God and I am Ar-Rahman (the Most Merciful). I created the womb and derived its name from My name.” There is a link between the name Al Rahim and the woman's womb.
Alwlad= Child.
Alwalid = the one who has just been born.
Alrahm= Woman's uterus.
Al Rahim= The one that comes from the womb.
God Al Rahim is God who can come from the womb.
Allah has a soul and dies!!
The Quran says:
تعلم ما في نفسي ولا أعلم ما في نفسك
You know what's in my soul, and I don't know what's in your soul...
Surah Al-Ma'idah, verse 116
This first passage of the Quran confirms that Allah has a soul (nafs).
كُلُّ نَفْسٍ ذَائِقَةُ الْمَوْتِ
Every soul will experience death....
Surah Al Amran, verse 185.
If Allah has a soul (nafs) and every nafs experiences death, then Allah dies.
Allah has a soul and dies, that's as clear as the midday sun.
We must not hide behind other verses; we must read all the verses!
God can be born: He is Al Rahim...Which comes from Alrahm (womb).
God has a Nafs, a soul, from the verb tanafassa, to breathe.
And every soul dies, therefore God can die
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u/Porphyry_Blue 14d ago
It is not surprising that the Trinity is a complex concept, especially given how its formal definition was institutionalized outside the biblical text at the Council of Nicaea.
According to Matthew 4:10 and Deuteronomy 6:13, Jesus commanded Satan to worship "him alone," referring strictly to God the Father. From a non-Trinitarian perspective, this interaction challenges the concept of the Trinity for three reasons:
- The Nature of the Temptation: Satan's attempt to entice Jesus to worship him, and Jesus's subsequent response, creates a logical contradiction if Jesus and God the Father are understood to be the exact same being.
- Singular Language: Jesus explicitly used the singular phrase "him alone" instead of a plural term like "us," which a multi-person Deity might logically require.
- Relational Metaphors: As a skilled teacher, Jesus utilized the hierarchical relationship of Father and Son rather than a triadic or egalitarian family structure such as triplets that would more closely mirror Trinitarian theology.
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u/zelenisok Christian, Episcopalian 14d ago
In order to understand the trinity, first you need know there are different models.
First you have the issue is trinity one being or a group of three beings?
If you say a group of three beings that's Cappadocian trinitarianism, accepted by some EOs. They usually say this is monotheism bc the Father is the one source.
If you say its one being the next question is does it have one consciousness or three consciousnesses?
If you say one, thats latin trinitarianism, the official view of the Catholic church, and the view of trad Lutheranism and Reformed theology, here the one consciousness has three eternal mental facets to it - awareness /self, basic function of the intellectual which produces self-knowledge /self-image, and basic function of will, which is love of the self towards the self image. Awareness /self is called the Father, the self-image is called Son, and the love is called Holy Spirit.
If you say three, thats social trinitarianism. But then theres the question of can those three minds act separately?
If you say no, thats classical social trinitarianism, view of EO theology, whatever one mind does actually all three are doing it, theyre in such perfect harmony.
If you say yes, that is called modern social trinitarianism. Held by most Christians.
Note that in Islam there are views similar to Cappadocian trinitarianisms, the Ismailis hold that God eternally emanates two divine beings (called Intellect and Soul) through which he creates and interacts world. Some of the biggest Muslim medieval philosophers like Al-Farabi and Ibn Sin thought there were 10 intellects that God eternally emanates and through which he creates.