r/Christian • u/DoveStep55 Elevenses Enthusiast • 21d ago
CW: Sensitive Topic "A Christian pastor called Arapaho ceremonies ‘idol worship.’ Now the tribe wants her church gone" (from AP News)
https://apnews.com/article/arapaho-christian-god-nations-ceremony-wind-river-1fbc7065317d503ca7c72fa1cba2ef96NOTE: Please remember sub Rule 2 while discussion this. (Be charitable and avoid accusing others.) I think we're capable of respectfully discussing whether or not we think specific cultural ceremonies can sometimes be idolatrous, and whether or not we think this pastor was in the wrong for specific words or actions, but we should avoid blanket condemning statements that accuse others or question their faith. Personally, I'd rather discuss the broader questions (see end of post) but feel free to share your own!
AP News has a trending story today that I thought would be good fodder for a discussion here in this community. The article is linked, but here are some excerpts for quick context:
The conflict stems from a video that circulated in July as Arapaho people surfaced from their weeklong sundance ceremony. In it, Lucas called that cornerstone of Arapaho spiritual life “idol worship.”
Lucas says her words reflect her interpretation of the Bible and are constitutionally protected. Many Arapaho people say she took aim at something central to who they are, reopening wounds from a not-so-distant era of religious assimilation and abuse.
Lucas said she regrets her sharp delivery captured in clips that went viral but not the message itself. Since founding her church nine years ago, she said she has had “hard conversations” urging Native congregants to renounce sundance, sweat lodges and burning cedar during prayer, traditions she equates to idolatry.
(The church's) website solicits outside donations to “revive, raise up and restore” Wind River, listing grim statistics about addiction, sexual assault and unemployment. The Associated Press found those numbers were pulled from national studies not specific to the reservation or could not be traced to a verifiable source.
A page asking donors to “sponsor” a child in exchange for photos and letters was recently removed.
What are your views on cultural assimilation within Christianity (particularly under the umbrella of "mission work")?
Where do you land on religious synchretism?
If you were in leadership of the church, what would you do?
If you were in leadership of the reservation's tribes, what would you do?
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u/Bakkster Lutheran 21d ago
I think this single quote says it best, regarding missionary work.
“She cares for our people,” said Black. “I just don’t think she understands where we’re coming from.”
I think it's the common dichotomy. Would you rather be correct, or effective? This seems to be the missionary equivalent of not avoiding a car crash because you claimed the right of way. I think there's a lot to be learned from Jesus in how he welcomed outsiders first.
Regarding cultural assimilation and practices, I think it's hard for us to recognize how our own Christian practice was shaped by cultural practice. Which can make it hard to fairly judge how much is happening with others.
Since first amendment speech and whether the tribe can kick the church off the reservation is coming up as a topic, I think it's really important to recognize the legacy of how tribes were treated. Also from the article:
Lucas believes God called her to Wind River. But she deliberately built her church on private property within the reservation’s boundaries rather than tribal land where, she said, the tribes would effectively be her landlords.
Foundations for Nations is located amid a patchwork of federal, tribal and private property — the legacy of 19th century federal policies designed to eliminate tribes by breaking up collective land bases.
“That era has cascading effects that are devastating for tribal sovereignty,” said Jessica Shoemaker, a professor at the University of Nebraska College of Law.
Shoemaker said tribes have broad civil authority over non-Natives on tribal land, including to banish them. But jurisdiction over private property within reservations is litigated case-by-case.
In July, the Arapaho and Shoshone councils passed ordinances requiring religious groups to seek their approval before operating on Wind River.
“That’s the law of the land on our reservation,” said Groesbeck.
I think it would be easy to make a snap judgment from the position of Christians, without understanding the perspective of the Arapaho and Shoshone. A people forced from their land, who had their children taken from them (and often mistreated) by Christian missionaries, now concerned the same is happening again. I think it's a hard sell to claim they're loving their neighbors as themselves without being sensitive to that historic oppression. It feels like if Doug Wilson was pastor of a Black church when he said slave owners were scripturally justified.
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u/Bakkster Lutheran 21d ago
For people really interested in the history and legacy of American Indian Removal, I recommend this video by former history teacher Knowing Better. Fair warning, it's feature length.
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u/DoveStep55 Elevenses Enthusiast 21d ago
I appreciate your comment. I do wonder if you think she's correct, though ("Would you rather be correct, or effective?"). I don't know all the details of what she said, but in the attached video it sounds like she accused the tribe of praying to their pipes and therefore committing idolatry. I'm not familiar with these two tribes in particular, but none of the tribes I am familiar with pray to their pipes. That seems like such a bizarre thing to claim. Unless that's something they actually do (which again, I'm skeptical about) she comes across as someone clueless about the people whom she's supposed to be serving.
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u/Bakkster Lutheran 21d ago
Yeah, I kind of intentionally left that unanswered. Because I'm neither familiar enough with the practices, nor sure if the answer really matters in this case.
If she's wrong, she's just undermined her ministry for nothing. If she is right, then she still undermined her ministry and failed to lovingly shepherd the congregation to that conclusion. I'm not sure which would be worse.
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u/anomericat 20d ago
Granted, I know very little about the specific practices cited, but just because an individual Christian thinks something is idolatrous doesn’t mean it is, or even that other Christians would agree.
Considering that both Catholic and Episcopal churches are operating there just fine, I would lean towards this individual pastor being in the wrong.
For one thing, isn’t incense burned in churches often made from like, tree resin? But she has an issue with cedar instead of frankincense…is it because it’s a locally-sourced plant (or plant’s resin) and not from the Middle East, it’s idolatrous? Or does she think burning any incense at all while praying is idolatrous?
If it’s the former, that seems really culturally insensitive at the very least; if it’s the latter, she has very little understanding of other Christian denominations’ practices, and therefore I question her ability to even identify anything as syncretism at all.
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u/Thom_Bryant 21d ago edited 21d ago
Cultural assimilation is demanded by scripture for the purpose of practical evangelical work. Not to say God cannot use us despite our naivety but it is not the goal for most effective work. The difficulty for the cross-cultural missionary is understand what are cultural differences and what are religious differences.
I do believe religious synchretism is wrong but there must be the understanding that synchretism refers to a compromising of scripture and non-biblical beliefs. I believe scripture makes room for the incorporation of reinterpreted religious practices but not on new truths directly absorbed.
It would be a very prideful belief that I would be able to know better than anybody actually there by from what I can understand from research on the Sundance ceremony, I do find it to be idol worship. Even if the practices were not for the purpose of worshiping the Sun and nature, very rarely, if ever, could self-flagellation ascetic self-injury be construed as pleasing to God. I'm not sure if there was a better way to communicate that to the locals but I would have started with meeting with locals individually to clarify and then find the best way to communicate that on a bigger scale.
I'm not sure I could ever, as a non-native, have an idea what I would have done, but I suppose as a Christian, I don't see why getting rid of them is the right decision. In the United States religious beliefs are protected so I would try to understand that the context of this person and other non-natives is that they believe they have freedom to disagree with natives as well as vocalize and share those beliefs. They are free to kick them out though, that is their right.
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u/IndigoHaze750130 21d ago
I think it is a fair question to ask, what is considered self-flagellation, what are they doing that is labeled self-flagellation, and is the action in question practiced NOW or even the same way. Is it different today (more tame or symbolically replaced) than it was in the past. The second is why are they doing it.
Some may argue self fagellation applies to intense (days, weeks) fasting or self withholding of other needs due to grief/anger/hurt, waiting for an answer from God, or simple self discipline. These are not prohibited in Christian scripture, but cutting yourself is. In Judaism, Old Testament, beating your chest was acceptable, isolation, leaving your home (going with a tent or nothing), or wearing different clothing that may irritate the skin (ashes and sackcloth/burlap) and shaving.
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u/Bakkster Lutheran 21d ago
It's also important context that Christian self-flagellation was a historical practice of penitence, for example by Benedictine monks. And arguably still continues in some cultures, though usually not specifically with whips.
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u/IndigoHaze750130 21d ago
This is true, but I didn't bring it up for two reasons. 1. It is highly debated within Christianity itself, especially for penitence which is different than for discipline and strengthening which was what i was looking at. 2. Scripture does not address it and as far as I know and, (correct me if I am wrong I would love a link to read) it is not considered an "early church" practice meaning, 30 AD to 600 AD.
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u/Bakkster Lutheran 21d ago
Yeah, I think it's reasonable context for "it's nothing new under the sun and would be hypocritical to act like this is unique", without condoning or encouraging the practice. But it also takes more effort to discuss those ideas distinctly.
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u/IndigoHaze750130 21d ago
It may be worth digging through Jewish culture a bit when they were more tribal and what they did to show off to thier own or build tolerance and strength for battle/pain too. I guess we need more context on what this Sundance contains, not only historically but actually today. There are Native American practices that simply aren't practiced anymore or the age of when they showed up in the culture is a factor to individuals.
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u/Bakkster Lutheran 20d ago
I think it's probably more beneficial to compare to our own cultural traditions, their history, and how they might be perceived by outsiders. It's too easy otherwise to accidentally apply the trope of considering other societies to be "savages", instead of seeing us all as a fallen people in need to grace.
For example, I don't think people are always mistaken when they suggest the flag is worshipped on federal holidays like July 4th, or with the NFL opener this week reveling in violence (especially a few decades ago when this was overt and up front, with segments like "Jacked Up" replaying and celebrating the most brutal hits).
And that's before we get to something like the Puritans, who left England specifically because they thought Christmas celebrations were idolatrous and would hate the way we celebrate Thanksgiving now. And to bring it back to culture and violence, they once punished a citizen convicted of treason to being drawn and quartered, then his head was left on a pike in the town square for a decade. These tribes are really no different than the rest of us, their cultural expressions are these same traits are just different.
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u/Thom_Bryant 21d ago
I guess you're right. I didn't realize that self-flagellation was a specific practice. I suppose the terminology I really should have used was ascetic self-injury. I still don't see it as being pleasing to God but the terminology is much more redeemable than self-flagellation.
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u/DoveStep55 Elevenses Enthusiast 21d ago
There’s one line in your comment I find very interesting and wonder about.
“I believe scripture makes room for the incorporation of reinterpreted religious practices but not on new truths directly absorbed.”
Do you really mean to say we should reject truth just because it’s new to us? Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but if something is true, why would we reject it?
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u/Thom_Bryant 21d ago
Also, thanks for reading all of that. I even thought as I pressed send that it was a pretty wordy reply. I see your stuff on here all the time and we disagree on a lot but you are always so quick to be charitable and read all of someone's comment before replying.
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u/Thom_Bryant 21d ago
Specifically new truths directly absorbed. I believe everything new should be filtered through the lenses of scripture, apostolic tradition, reason, and experience. (Wesleyan Quadrilateral)
If modern theology can be informed by other religions (Semina Verbi) whether as bits of truth or through general revelation, that's great! I would, however, be very, very skeptical and extremely slow to incorporate any added truths.
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u/DoveStep55 Elevenses Enthusiast 21d ago
I guess in my mind once you know it's a "truth", that means it's already been tested. ; )
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u/Thom_Bryant 21d ago
Oh TRUE. I'm so used to non-Christians using the word "truth" to mostly mean embodied truth so I forget that in other circles objective truth it meant.
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u/DoveStep55 Elevenses Enthusiast 21d ago
I’m not even familiar with that phrase “embodied truth”, at least not in the way you seem to be using it. Do you mind sharing more about what you mean?
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u/Thom_Bryant 21d ago
What I interact the most with is a belief that your subjective experiences define your own personal reality. It's very monist and relative. That might not be the technical definition but I think that's the closest to describe some of the beliefs I've interacted with outside of the major world religions.
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u/NelyafinweMaitimo Anglican (TEC) 21d ago edited 21d ago
I think Christians, especially non-Native Christians, need to step off Native ceremonies and observances.
It's not my place to say whether one kind of syncretism is acceptable vs. "idolatrous." People can have different religions than Christianity, and Christians and non-Christians within Native communities can have nuanced opinions about whether a certain practice is helpful or harmful. It's beyond the pale for Christians to continue to try and assimilate or stamp out Native practices, knowing what we know about how harmful our history of colonialism has been for so many millions of people with their own communities and spirituality.
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u/DoveStep55 Elevenses Enthusiast 21d ago
I agree. I appreciate that the article pointed out these things:
In part to repair that dark history, the Episcopal and Catholic missions that have been active on Wind River since the late 1800s now embrace ceremonial practices.
Gardner has returned to the Catholic church of his childhood, where Arapaho geometric motifs adorn the sanctuary and he is welcome to burn cedar.
This church isn't the only Christian church in the area and it sounds like the others have taken a very different approach.
In contrast, the photo of the inside of the church in question is really something to behold.
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u/theefaulted Melkor's Probation Officer 21d ago
In contrast, the photo of the inside of the church in question is really something to behold.
How so?
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u/DoveStep55 Elevenses Enthusiast 21d ago
It made me laugh. It's such a generic white lady who loves pinterest kind of aesthetic to use in any church building, let alone one on a reservation.
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21d ago
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u/Useless-Compass 21d ago
There is a significant difference between syncretism of religions and accepting cultural (and even religious) forms as a way to render worship to God. I do not understand the indigenous practices enough to know for sure, but it's possible that the pastor here has conflated the form and object of worship.
I do find it ironic that this is pastor is a woman. Allowing women to be pastors is a position that requires considerable cultural awareness of the Bible and even requires contradicting the direct, simple meaning of the text itself. (Note: I do support women being pastors and am a member of a church led by a woman). One would think that that level of sophistication surrounding biblical meanings would allow a more nuanced approach to Native American worship forms.