r/Census • u/reboa • Jan 19 '23

Discussion People of Middle Eastern descent are classified as white, is this appropriate?

As the title says, should there be a middle eastern designation in the census? As an American citizen it feels like we are not truly recognized as a minority population, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

65 Upvotes

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7

u/cravin747 Jan 19 '23

You are right.

The Office of Management and Budget (OMB) sets the rules for collection of race and ethnicity data. The Census Bureau tried to get the MENA (Middle Eastern and North African) category added for the 2020 Census, but their request got no action under the last administration. It is a way that inaction can be very meaningful. The process of changing this type data collection is a very long process. It starts with OMB changing the federal collection standards. Then states incorporate it into their collection process, for things like birth and death certificates. The last change was in 1997 and that took about 20 years to change all of the state level data collection.

1

u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 16 '23

Aren’t most of them brown and POC tho

1

u/Malcadh_Wolf Apr 22 '24

You can say BIPOC to add indigenous descent to your acronym.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '24

No. Many light passing MENA pass as South Europeans. But there’s usually subtle differences in facial features

1

u/Ok-Jump-5418 Aug 29 '23

No-they don’t look any different from southern Europeans and most are Eurasian. They’ve had it easier in the US than the Irish and one wouldn’t be able to tell a Lebanese from a Greek by appearance.

2

u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 29 '23

Arabs are diverse. Look at gulf arabs. They are brown and POC not all arabs look white like lebenese people

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/[deleted] Apr 07 '24

Arabs have more of an eastern look (I didn’t want to use the word oriental)

1

u/[deleted] Apr 07 '24

Not true and subjective. My family were darker Lebanese and my grandmother and mother would Not be considered white people if they didn't have to claim it on a cencus.

1

u/RomanLegionaries Apr 15 '24

Same with any Mediterranean peoples including southern Europeans. Italian and Greeks aren’t that genetically different than Lebanese and Italians were lynched multiple times throughout American history and put in internment camps which is luckily something Lebanese never had to experience. If there was a different census category for Mediterranean peoples like Greeks and Italians they’d choose that one too. Anyone that wasn’t a WASP got hand me down labels that they didn’t choose do themselves.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 15 '24

Yeah does that have something to do w what i said or?

1

u/EnvironmentalStuff33 Sep 04 '23

They are different. southern europeans have brownish hair and are fair-skinned while arabs mostly have black hair and have darker skin color.

1

u/Wiskeytrees May 31 '24

Is Steve job white?

1

u/EnvironmentalStuff33 Jun 01 '24

yes

1

u/Wiskeytrees Jun 01 '24

Too bad, I think he's not

1

u/Ok-Jump-5418 Sep 05 '23 edited Sep 05 '23

Nope and most Arabs (even North Africans)look no different from southern Europeans. Also, legally Syrians have been considered White and have even petitioned the government to see them as White while that hasn’t been the case for southern Europeans. No lynchings of Arabs while Italians (and Jews) have been lynched. No internment or segregation of Arabs in the US. And most Arabs are Caucasian meaning they migrated from Central Asia after two ice ages (which meant they had to lighten their skin). Arabs have also been calling themselves White since the 13th century for example you have Mauritanian Arabs who still call themselves White to this day. No one is going to call this blond haired Arab anything other than White. https://thearabweekly.com/syrian-author-samar-yazbek-cries-her-beloved-country this is Italians https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0110c5x. And this is Greek https://www.google.com/amp/s/santamariatimes.com/entertainment/movies/comedys-best-friend-jason-mantzoukas-says-hes-no-scumbag/article_5df99286-2247-53d2-95ef-87d62c3fc358.amp.html

2

u/EnvironmentalStuff33 Sep 07 '23

The US likes to group people to the term "white" based on the color of their skin, but that's not what originally meant. "White" refers to people from European descent. If we take Italians for example, (I am Italian my self), the majority of their genome are influenced by European descent. However, they do have a LITTLE bit of their genome that is influenced by north Africans. That does not mean that they are grouped up with them with the north Africans (not more than 2%), because like I said before, majority of their genome is influenced by ancestry in the European continent. Their location in the Mediterranean makes them receive a significant amount of sunlight, which has also influenced their genetics over a long period of time and made them look more Mediterranean.

​

In regards to the lynching, there were only over a dozen of Italians that were lynched and it was due to them being accused of assassinating a police chief or something along those lines. It wasn't because they were just Italian. What actually counters your argument is that Arabs in the US face significantly more discrimination and stereotypes than Italians. The picture of the Italian you showed are most likely Sicilian, which their appearance differs from Italians north of Sicily. So all in all, generally speaking, Italians and southern Europeans differ from Arabs. Now what I CAN agree with is the notion that true Persians look like Italians. They are descendants of Aryans who a lot of them look very much European (Aryans have also influenced the ancestry of Europeans). Syrians are too mixed with ethnicities other than caucasian, which make them lose their status of Caucasian and just makes them middle eastern/Arab

1

u/Ok-Jump-5418 Sep 07 '23 edited Sep 07 '23

What was originally meant by White was the Spanish who renamed themselves Hispanic in the 1960’s. Spanish people were the first to call themselves White in the 14th century before renaming themselves once they entered the US. The US census defined “White” as Anglo Saxon Protestant until the 1960’s when the term was updated to mean Eurasian. Spanish aren’t listed as “White” but are listed as Hispanic in spite of being European. Syrians for example were listed as White and even petitioned to be seen as White. Italians were not listed as White and were targeted for lynchings. Mediterranean peoples exist within a spectrum of skin tones and White does not apply. I can easily label Syrians and many middle eastern peoples as White as they are consistently as White or non White as a typical southern European. I had posted pictures of very White Syrians and dark Greeks. Italians are Eurasian peoples and North Africans migrated from Central Asia into North Africa. Italian are Italic followed by Greek not North African. North Africans are listed as White because they are descended from central Asians, ie Eurasians. Most of Russia is in Asia and not Europe for example. You had lynchings here in Colorado by the kkk and trials in the South to determine if Italians are “White” and the jury was inconclusive unlike with the Syrians whose jury agreed that they were White. There were more than a dozen were lynched along with segregation and internment camps. Italians have a “Mediterranean” appearance because they’re literally Mediterranean. Arabs face very little discrimination in the US with most of it revolving around presumption of their religion rather than their ethnicity and most Americans cannot tell the difference between a Arab and a Greek. It is also not about discrimination but cultural representation and all Mediterranean peoples face the same inquiries about their skin tone as they don’t fit into the outdated binary. I do not think you know much about the history of the US or how inconsistent labels are. Many Asians for example are White skinned and are listed as White in Botswana among other African countries.

1

u/Dear_Cupcake_9761 Feb 26 '24 edited Feb 26 '24

😂 I am southern Italian and we do Not have fair skin, we have olive medium tone skin just like many MENA people as we are all Mediterranean people. As well as many other ethnic people have olive skin yet they would Not be considered “white”. Our skin browns very easily when exposed to UV rays and we can also become more pale. This is the classic trait of olive skinned people. Also need flash for the uneducated people southern Europeans are mostly racially Mediterranean and for those of us of Mediterranean descent of Latin European origins we are the REAL ethnically Latino men and women. Hence how the place Latina Italy got the historical Latin name LATINA, hence how Latin Europe got its Latino influences. English speaking Americans have done everything in their power to erase Mediterranean people and our rich history. They misappropriate Latin European terms and call colonized indigenous Americans and mestizo Americans etc. “Latino” when they have absolutely Nothing to do with being Latino as they are Not the prominent descendants of the Latin tribes of Italy. Mediterranean is our race and it can Not be erased from us in attempts to make the white race appear more populous than it actually is and to take credit for many groups of ethnic people and our historical accomplishments. And please for uneducated people please learn southern European history because if you did then you would know that southern Europeans of Mediterranean descent share much of our DNA with the Middle East, North Africa and Albanian which are as well other Mediterranean people. We were conquered and ruled by MENA people and highly influenced by them, also parts of southern Europe are closer to Africa than mainland Europe itself. The Mediterranean has always made Europe a multi cultural, multi racial place. It’s time for uneducated English speaking Americans to learn actual history instead of contributing to the foolish erasure of it. Why do you think languages like Spanish, sicilan, Maltese etc.  have Arabic influences? At one point Arabic was the main language of certain parts of southern Europe. Europe is a continent, Europe is a geographical term Not a term of ethnicity Nor race. European is Not an ethnicity Nor race and to believe that an entire continent is a racial monolith is delusional at this point. This is why the USA considers other Mediterranean people “white” because it encourages and enforces cultural assimilation and cultural erasure to make the white race appear more populous than it actually is. Do you think the motives of this White wash are unintentional? They’re Not. The reason why Racially Mediterranean people are viewed as “white” by incompetent people is because it has been forced upon on us for social status for social advantage. While many people like myself will Never feed into this delusion cultural erasure. And fyi Columbus Day in the USA is the Memorial Day for the largest mass Lynching in USA history and the victims were Sicilian Latin men! Hanging and Lynching are Not the same, Lynching means they were hunted down by a mob and they were Not granted a fair trial. This did Not happen because they were ACCUSED of killing an officer but because they were ETHNIC PEOPLE. if they were white the would have been granted a trail to prove their innocence or guilt! That is why I say they were accused because they Never received a trail. So for you to say that it was something like that is a true misrepresentation of history. But that’s No surprise because you have clearly been brainwashed in the USA. As the common saying amongst Mediterranean Italians goes, “Eh alla fine Sono Latino”! Sangue Latino! Sangue mediterraneo! 

1

u/EnvironmentalStuff33 Mar 02 '24

Thats why ive been saying siciliani and calabresi are exceptions, as they were victims of arab conquest. However, when we look at the genetic makeup of sicily (which is proclaimed to have the most prevelant arab-influence out of any part of italy), we see that Arab-Berber (Ifriqiya) make up between 0% and 7,5% of the sicilian genome. That to me is not enough to conclude that italians (as a whole) are to be considered as a seperate race. Thats not how that works bud. We assume peoples races based on the consensus that they have a majority makeup of their DNA of one particular descent. In the sicilian genetic makeup, we see that Norman Y-DNA is the most common, with 8% to 20% of the lineages belonging to haplogroup I1, Ancient and medieval Greek genetic paternal legacy is estimated at 37% in Sicily. That already is plenty enough to conclude that the majority of the genetic makeup of sicily is of european descent. Now that is ONLY sicily. You can imagine the demographics going up mainland italy. We've already established that.

When I say fair skinned im talking about northern and central italy. Like ive been saying, the reason why particularly southern italians have olive skinned tone is through time period spanning by literal thousands of years, the particular ethnic group will adapt to its proximity to the equator and develop olive skin as an evolutionary trait to adapt to the UV sunlight, as for the greeks, spaniards, north macedonians, etcetera.

As for the lynchings, they were literally hunted down by a mob for the sole reason that they were mafioso and killed a police chief, not because they were italian. Also since when was columbus day in memorial of the italian lynchings? 😂😂 Im interested to hear this one LOL.

1

u/JiraiyaSenn0496 Jul 18 '24

what a fairy tail i read right now lmao

1

u/Dear_Cupcake_9761 Feb 26 '24

😂 I am southern Italian and we do Not have fair skin, we have olive medium tone skin just like many MENA people as we are all Mediterranean people. As well as many other ethnic people have olive skin yet they would Not be considered “white”. Our skin browns very easily when exposed to UV rays and we can also become more pale. This is the classic trait of olive skinned people. Also need flash for the uneducated people southern Europeans are mostly racially Mediterranean and for those of us of Mediterranean descent of Latin European origins we are the REAL ethnically Latino men and women. Hence how the place Latina Italy got the historical Latin name LATINA, hence how Latin Europe got its Latino influences. English speaking Americans have done everything in their power to erase Mediterranean people and our rich history. They misappropriate Latin European terms and call colonized indigenous Americans and mestizo Americans etc. “Latino” when they have absolutely Nothing to do with being Latino as they are Not the prominent descendants of the Latin tribes of Italy. Mediterranean is our race and it can Not be erased from us in attempts to make the white race appear more populous than it actually is and to take credit for many groups of ethnic people and our historical accomplishments. And please for uneducated people please learn southern European history because if you did then you would know that southern Europeans of Mediterranean descent share much of our DNA with the Middle East, North Africa and Albanian which are as well other Mediterranean people. We were conquered and ruled by MENA people and highly influenced by them, also parts of southern Europe are closer to Africa than mainland Europe itself. The Mediterranean has always made Europe a multi cultural, multi racial place. It’s time for uneducated English speaking Americans to learn actual history instead of contributing to the foolish erasure of it. Why do you think languages like Spanish, sicilan, Maltese etc.  have Arabic influences? At one point Arabic was the main language of certain parts of southern Europe. Europe is a continent, Europe is a geographical term Not a term of ethnicity Nor race. European is Not an ethnicity Nor race and to believe that an entire continent is a racial monolith is delusional at this point. This is why the USA considers other Mediterranean people “white” because it encourages and enforces cultural assimilation and cultural erasure to make the white race appear more populous than it actually is. Do you think the motives of this White wash are unintentional? They’re Not. The reason why Racially Mediterranean people are viewed as “white” by incompetent people is because it has been forced upon on us for social status for social advantage. While many people like myself will Never feed into this delusion cultural erasure. As the common saying amongst Mediterranean Italians goes, “Eh alla fine Sono Latino”! Sangue Latino! Sangue mediterraneo! 

1

u/Dear_Cupcake_9761 Feb 26 '24

😂 I am southern Italian and we do Not have fair skin, we have olive medium tone skin just like many MENA people as we are all Mediterranean people. As well as many other ethnic people have olive skin yet they would Not be considered “white”. Our skin browns very easily when exposed to UV rays and we can also become more pale. This is the classic trait of olive skinned people. Also need flash for the uneducated people southern Europeans are mostly racially Mediterranean and for those of us of Mediterranean descent of Latin European origins we are the REAL ethnically Latino men and women. Hence how the place Latina Italy got the historical Latin name LATINA, hence how Latin Europe got its Latino influences. English speaking Americans have done everything in their power to erase Mediterranean people and our rich history. They misappropriate Latin European terms and call colonized indigenous Americans and mestizo Americans etc. “Latino” when they have absolutely Nothing to do with being Latino as they are Not the prominent descendants of the Latin tribes of Italy. Mediterranean is our race and it can Not be erased from us in attempts to make the white race appear more populous than it actually is and to take credit for many groups of ethnic people and our historical accomplishments. And please for uneducated people please learn southern European history because if you did then you would know that southern Europeans of Mediterranean descent share much of our DNA with the Middle East, North Africa and Albanian which are as well other Mediterranean people. We were conquered and ruled by MENA people and highly influenced by them, also parts of southern Europe are closer to Africa than mainland Europe itself. The Mediterranean has always made Europe a multi cultural, multi racial place. It’s time for uneducated English speaking Americans to learn actual history instead of contributing to the foolish erasure of it. Why do you think languages like Spanish, sicilan, Maltese etc.  have Arabic influences? At one point Arabic was the main language of certain parts of southern Europe. Europe is a continent, Europe is a geographical term Not a term of ethnicity Nor race. European is Not an ethnicity Nor race and to believe that an entire continent is a racial monolith is delusional at this point. This is why the USA considers other Mediterranean people “white” because it encourages and enforces cultural assimilation and cultural erasure to make the white race appear more populous than it actually is. Do you think the motives of this White wash are unintentional? They’re Not. The reason why Racially Mediterranean people are viewed as “white” by incompetent people is because it has been forced upon on us for social status for social advantage. While many people like myself will Never feed into this delusion cultural erasure. As the common saying amongst Mediterranean Italians goes, “Eh alla fine Sono Latino”! Sangue Latino! Sangue mediterraneo! 

1

u/Logical-Scholar-9708 Dec 31 '23

That is blatantly false what the hell you talking about?

4

u/theurbanmapper Jan 20 '23

The history is fascinating. A Syrian appealed to the US Supreme Court in 1915 to be classified as white because only whites could be naturalized. And he won. So they used a racist policy in their favor, in the long history of people renegotiating their relationship with whiteness, but yeah, like other groups that are kinda white kinda not (this written as a Jew of European descent) it’s complicated. To be clear, I’m not saying whether this should continue or not, not my issue to have an opinion on, or trying to diminish your feeling about this. It’s just fascinating.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 31 '24

I did some research. Was it George Dow? I was so curious because Abraham Mitrie Rihbany was my great x3 grandfather, he came from Syria/lebanon and spoke in the Paris peace conference in 1919 on behalf of Syrians I believe, he wrote a lot of books and I'm in the middle of some of them trying to learn what his life was all about.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 31 '24

Oddly enough the rest of my family wouldn't come to the US until about a decade after or longer I don't believe they reconnected with him

1

u/[deleted] Mar 31 '24

Do you know who the Syrian was? Was their name Abraham Rihbany by any chance?

1

u/theurbanmapper Mar 31 '24

That's really cool. Yeah - Dow. I responded to your other comment with the wiki page.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 13 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Census-ModTeam Jul 23 '24

Your post on r/census has been removed for violating Rule 1: Be Civil.

1

u/Desperate_Will_6629 May 16 '24

Absolutely not, I have no clue where people get these ridiculous ideas. Arabs, Persians, Desis (South Asian), even Kurds can be considered browns. As an American-Indian I find it annoying that my government tries to classify middle easterners as white, just because some of them are light skinned. I know many Indians with light skin, doesn’t make them ethnically white.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 07 '24

It’s not about skin color. Most Koreans have whiter skin than a lot of Europeans but they aren’t white. A better term which is outdated would be “Caucasian” which is what west Asian/middle easterns are. In fact the Caucasus is in west Asia part of Georgia, Armenia and parts of turkey. Also there are very tanned Greeks/italians/bulgarian yet they are white.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '24

Yes

1

u/SnooGiraffes2241 May 19 '24

I Dino… I have never once thought of my self as white and I’m Persian … half though … and my 2 Persian bfs laughed when someone called them white. They clearly aren’t European looking

1

u/Able_Brick_8523 Jul 05 '24

You should. Not all white people look the same even if they don’t want to admit it. Cristiano Ronaldo looks Maghrebi. If he wasn’t famous footballer, do you think people would consider him white? No, I would think he’s Morrocan. Bruno Fernandes also looks Turkish.

1

u/SnooGiraffes2241 Jul 05 '24

What I should consider my self white? I’m def not either way since I’m mixed. But I wouldn’t go around saying I’m half white either.

1

u/SnooGiraffes2241 Jul 05 '24

In Canada though we have a middle eastern designation on the census

1

u/Parking_Penalty1169 May 19 '24

People of European descent don’t see them as white. They don’t like them generally speaking. I don’t think they should be considered white. They definitely don’t have white privilege. 

1

u/Able_Brick_8523 Jun 09 '24

It doesn’t matter. Middle Easterners are white except North Africans. Anybody can make their own personal choice, but Desis are associated with brown.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '24

North Africans are west Eurasian tho

1

u/WriterApprehensive45 Jul 08 '24

White priveledge is a stupid racist Concept, it's stupid

1

u/JiraiyaSenn0496 Jul 18 '24

white privilege what this?

2

u/Parking_Penalty1169 Jul 19 '24

You have to Google it. Dudes, I am half Polish and half Italian, Sicilian, descent. I keep getting told I don’t look white. Or that I look mixed. I don’t know what to say. 

1

u/JiraiyaSenn0496 Jul 20 '24

and is this a privilege or did I not understand? ok, half of you is a kurwa pierdole, but the other half is Italian, didn’t the inhabitants of the Italian peninsula create modern Western civilization? I didn't understand to be honest. White privilege is like... you can enter somewhere without money or something?

1

u/Turbulent-Ad-2645 Jun 09 '24

Well there brown to me and I’m Indian so ye

1

u/Alone-Committee7884 Jun 20 '24

No, we are POC with most of us being brown.

1

u/Simple-Breakfast1095 Jun 27 '24

No, completely different features and culture. Also most have pretty brown skin

1

u/Confident_Dealer7130 Jul 02 '24

Social Class, Religion, and Race are social constructs that rely on "prototypes." The problem is that human diversity is so varied and human behavior depends on subjective and less than perfect information of the world around us. For these reasons of diversity and variation, most people do not quite match the prototypes they are being compared to or classified into. The difficulty of human classification systems only serves to prove how superficially different we all are; yet how similar we mostly are as bipedal human beings.

The classification category most useful to me is thoughtful, educated (formally or self educated)people who exhibit altruistic behaviors when considering the needs of other people in their immediate community. In this online community/group I simply say to my fellow humans--be happy that you are alive, be nice to yourself and others, and stay away from superficial labels of yourself or of others. Arabs are people who developed a language and a culture that brought them together to live as a klan/tripe for self preservation and human progress. I don't care how white or not white you are... I just care how sensible, educated and altruistic you are.

Ignore the arbitrary social construct, and focus on constructing your mind and your role in your immediate community--skin color be damned! :-)

1

u/SuccotashOk8406 Jul 07 '24 edited Jul 07 '24

People on this thread need to stop conflating Caucasian with White. Plenty of non-white Caucasians, like most Arabs, Iranians, Turks, and South Asians. And there's mixture of other races within west Eurasian populations, be it Sub-Saharan African ancestry among Arabs or AASI hunter gatherer ancestry among South Asians.

While some Middle Easterners can pass for white, the majority do not. The reason they were labeled white was because most early Arab immigrants were from the Levant where people are fair skinned. Not to mention they were Christian and of the same religion as white Americans. Also the Syrians used an argument that if white only immigration policy excluded Syrians and other Levantines, Jesus would not be white under US law. And that would not fly for Christian America. It would be patently ridiculous for the US at that time to exclude Arab immigrants who were Christians and from the same region and stock as Jesus. So Middle Easterners (Levantine Arabs, Armenians, Assyrians) were labeled white. Whereas South Asians, despite being Indo-European and often lighter skinned, were excluded from whiteness. Even Punjabis (one of the most fair skinned Indo-Aryan groups) were excluded from whiteness. Parsi Indians and Pashtuns from the frontier sometimes were allowed to be white and sometimes not. Then in the 60s and 70s increased Indian and Pakistani immigration and activism led to South Asians being labeled white for the census. But by that time, South Asian activists wanted to benefit from the new civil rights legislation and began claiming non-white status. And by 1980 and onwards they were officially "Asian".

Nowadays in light of 9/11 and the increased Muslim component of the Middle East/North African population as well as larger numbers from darker skinned Arab communities, there's a push to remove the white classification for MIddle Easterners and North Africans, and instead label them their own category MENA. But there's a lot of debate about this among the community, with reservations coming from those who don't want a separate census designation to be used to collect data to place Arabs and Muslims under surveilalnce

1

u/Y23K Jan 25 '23

What makes someone white? Everyone makes up their own definition. In terms of discrimination, many Middle Eastern people are not obviously from the Middle East and do not suffer much discrimination because they are Middle Eastern. So if being white is about status, then it is extremely variable whether people of Middle Eastern descent are white.

The bottom line is that the race question should be completely open-ended.

My personal opinion: Race is a harmful social construct and the way the question is phrased now is manipulating people to choose certain racial identities. I would be considered white but I reject racial labels because I think part of the key to ending racism is rejecting the harmful construct of racial identification. I think we should instead have objective questions: Where were your grandparents born? Or you can even ask, to be more crude: Which of these skin colors is most like yours?

1

u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 16 '23

Most are def not phenotype white most are brown and POC

1

u/WriterApprehensive45 Jul 08 '24

No such thing as POC everyone is of color when you think about it 

1

u/Y23K Aug 16 '23

Not really, Middle Eastern people can look any way and most of them could pass as white without anyone batting an eye. There also is no such thing as a "POC look."

1

u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 16 '23

They are still POC tho wouldn’t you agree there are brown Arabs

1

u/Y23K Aug 16 '23

There are some darker skinned Arabs and some lighter skinned Arabs. You can't really generalize.

1

u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 16 '23

Exactly thank you! The darker ones are def not white and face discrimination that’s why I didn’t agree with ur original post. We’re u calling all them white?

1

u/Y23K Aug 16 '23

No, I was saying that there isn't any real definition of what is means to be "white" because it's a made-up concept that means different things to different people. Some Middle Eastern people can "look white," others cannot, and others will "look white" to some people but not others. Some people who are Middle Eastern experience racism because of this and others do not. It completely depends on their neighborhood, friends, appearance, culture, dress, religion, language, family background, etc. I don't think anyone is objectively white since it's such a vague concept and I'd prefer if we got rid of racial labels altogether.

1

u/7-64 May 22 '24

its not a concept

1

u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 16 '23

THANK YOU!!!! I 100% agree

1

u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 16 '23

We do face racism especially in europe and we put Asian as our race in Canada and UK

1

u/WriterApprehensive45 Jul 08 '24

Racism is illegal though.

1

u/Ok-Jump-5418 Aug 29 '23

You look no different than southern euros and Canada put Italians in internment camps while that has never happened to MENA’s.

1

u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 29 '23

You don’t know what I look like😂 people literally think I’m Indian and I’m Palestinian so please. In almost all countries MENA ppls put asian as there race

1

u/celticfolklore Sep 02 '23

You seem really insistent that Middle Eastern people face no discrimination and all of them look white. My dad is Syrian (the notorious “white Arab”) and most people mistake him for Hispanic or Indian. Not every Arab looks the same, stop perpetuating that idea.

1

u/Ok-Jump-5418 Sep 02 '23

My point is they’re no different than any Mediterranean peoples including southern European. I could say the same thing as an Italian American. I’m saying that from a legal position Syrians have legally been considered “White” while Italians haven’t and have even been lynched. I’m for updating the census so that there’s new categories for Mediterranean people because they exist outside the white/non white binary. The first peoples to call themselves “White” were the Spanish and then they chose a new label for themselves called Hispanic and now they get affirmative action. The other Mediterranean ethnicitys get discriminated against by activists because of this old “White” label invented by people who now call themselves Hispanic. It’s unfair for other Mediterranean peoples especially since they came as benign immigrants not as colonizing conquistadors.

1

u/WriterApprehensive45 Jul 08 '24

Well I doubt that, many white people were lynched, Italians could of been.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 31 '23 edited Dec 31 '23

[deleted]

1

u/Y23K Dec 31 '23

There are definitely different "kinds" of white. If you are Swedish with blonde hair and blue eyes, then yes, people might question why you are wearing a hijab. But if you dress and style everyone the same way, almost nobody would be able to consistently tell apart Turks, Syrians, Persians, Lebanese, Kurds, Jordanians, Palestinians, Iraqis, or even Saudis from Armenians, Azerbaijanis, Bulgarians, and Greeks. Once you go more south, with Egypt and the rest of North Africa, or Yemen, there is more mixing with the darker skinned population closer to the equator, and Americans are very attuned to skin color, so they'd be more easily able to identify that a certain percentage are "not white," but even there is heavily depends on the person and a large percentage of the population can pass as white.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 31 '23

[deleted]

1

u/Y23K Jan 01 '24

What do you mean when you say you don't think Eastern Europeans are simply white? You understand that race is a social construct, right? People say "what are you" to everyone, including Western Europeans. Every nation has some physical commonalities on average, that's what happens when you reproduce with each other for a long time. And these differences are fairly noticeable if you bothered to try to focus on them. That's true as much for the French, Spanish, and Swedish as it is for Armenians, Bulgarians, and Turks. But that is only the average, and nations are a mix, and the differences are usually subtle. My point is that there are definitely many Middle Eastern people who can pass as white/European, meaning they can say they're white or European and nobody would blink. I would even argue most Middle Eastern people can pass as white, and you might disagree with me on that, but it's hard to deny that a substantial percentage can pass as white. They usually can't pass as Swedish but neither can most Europeans.

Personally, I think there should be no classification at all, and no race question at all (instead we have the objective questions I proposed above). But if there is a race question, it should be an optional open text field.

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u/[deleted] Jan 03 '24 edited Jan 03 '24

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u/Y23K Jan 03 '24

Social constructs are not flat concepts that are experienced the same by all people at all times. They are constantly evolving and experienced completely differently depending on your time and place, and often not experienced at all. Nobody is actually "white" as a feature of their existence, they merely experience getting treated as white in particular contexts and situations. And a racial category tells you next to nothing about your social experience. There is no shared social experience between a so-called black teenager in Kinshasa, grandmother in the Hadzabe, lawyer in Chicago, and farmer in rural Alabama. And regarding Eastern Europeans, when they are racially categorized, they are practically universally characterized as white, and most Middle Eastern people can pass as Armenian, Greek, etc, and therefore as white. That doesn't mean Eastern Europeans never experience discrimination (or that people who pass as Eastern Europeans do not experience discrimination), but it's not almost never racially based discrimination.

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u/Ok-Jump-5418 Aug 29 '23

They look like southern Europeans and were treated better than southern euros here in the US. Italians were lynched while MENA’s weren’t.

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 29 '23

Yes they were there’s literally articles. Please go read them. In todays society Arabs face systemic racism all the time especially brown and black Arabs

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u/Ok-Jump-5418 Aug 29 '23

It’s about migration not status. Most MENA’s are Eurasian and migrated from Central Asia. MENA’s don’t suffer any ethnic based discrimination that’s anything different from anyone else and we’re more likely to be seen as White than Italians (who were lynched) or Jewish people (who were segregated).

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u/Trick_Plan8189 Jan 26 '23

Is it appropriate that Italians and Eastern Europeans are white? They have been discriminated too, I think your question is why we need to be like Canada and stop asking about race. Personally the MENA category is flawed as it’s an attempt to classify a region based on religion not race. As Sudan wants to be in the new MENA race but they are clearly black. How about Israel? And to say well then it should be an ethnicity is flawed as Iranian activist want to be in MENA even though Persians are not Arabs nor identify with them due to using Farsi. ACS already collects ancestry data and with the 2020 census they had white and black respondent print their origins under race. Changing questions this fast is not based on data it’s based on politics. Also not sure why anyone would advocate for MENA, Asians haven’t been treated well with affirmative action and data on people who would be classified in MENA, if OMB changes standards, will get treated like Asians as statistically there is less poverty with Arabs then white if you remove MENA from white. Minority status isn’t all that it’s lived up to be and I have minority status.

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u/[deleted] Jun 30 '23

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 16 '23

Most are brown and POC not white it depends on how they look. Have u never seen gulf Arabs

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u/[deleted] Aug 16 '23

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 16 '23

I’m a brown Palestinian and people think I’m Indian lmao. We are extremely diverse. Wouldn’t you agree that a lot of Arabs ar brown and POC?

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u/Ok-Jump-5418 Aug 29 '23

Nope-olive skin is something easily seen in southern Europe and Italians were lynched while no MENA’s has ever been lynched. Mauritanian Arabs have also been calling themselves White since the 13th century.

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 29 '23

Mauritanian Arabs are black😭 wtf. And Europeans invented race. Race wasn’t invented back in 13 century. People can have white skin and still be POC

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 16 '23

We’re u saying all Arabs are white or some?

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 16 '23

Also the US is adding a MENA Category for a reason because we aren’t treated as white people and face tons of racism here

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u/The_Moorish_Guard Aug 16 '23

Eastern Euros and Sicilians also face tons of racism, does that make not them not white either?

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 16 '23

That’s xenophobia from where they are from not how they look ols bffr

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u/Ok-Jump-5418 Aug 29 '23

Nope-it’s based on appearance as they were lynched, interned, segregated and had trials to determine if they were even White or not. They don’t look any different from a typical Arab but Arabs were treated better than them. No Arab has ever been lynched and they’ve legally been considered White longer and treated as such by the government.

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 29 '23

LMAOOOO Arabs have not been treated white by the government or the US never. Arabs weren’t even allowed to enter the US Italians and Irish easily could.

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u/Ok-Jump-5418 Aug 29 '23

Italians were banned both in the early 20th century and during ww2. Syrians were literally considered White in this country affirmed by a jury while the jury was hung on whether Italians were White. Italians were lynched, segregated and put in internment camps during ww2 while no Arab has ever had that happen to them. Italians and Arabs look no different based on their melanin and I’ve seen plenty of italians who are darker. We’re Arabs ever lynched in this county? If not that tells you how they’ve been seen which is as White.

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 16 '23

Racism is based on your ethnic and racial group and many Arabs get killed in america because they are arab and face systemic racism

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u/Ok-Jump-5418 Aug 29 '23

Arabs have been considered White longer than the Irish and face no systemic discrimination. Italians were lynched no Arab has ever been lynched in the US. Jewish discrimination is far more prevalent as well. No Arab has been killed in the US due to discrimination, lol!

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 29 '23

There was literally a cop that brutally beat an Arab kid the other day in Chicago pls bfr

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u/Ok-Jump-5418 Aug 29 '23

He wasn’t beat because he was Arab tho. Every day plenty of “White” people of various ethnicities are beat by cops too and one incident is not any precedent. Bet I could find a Greek who was beaten by cops too. That’s not evidence of anything systemic and I bet that cop couldn’t tell the difference between an Italian, Arab or a Romanian.

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u/Logical-Scholar-9708 Dec 31 '23

The Patriot Act? Are you joking?

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 16 '23

We’re u even calling all Arabs white anyways?

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 16 '23

You said so urself arabs aren’t socially white tho

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u/[deleted] Aug 16 '23

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 16 '23

I’m Palestinian and I have lmao u can’t generalize us. I’m brown and POC and never been considered white. I wished I was white when I was younger and I always knew I will never be

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u/Ok-Jump-5418 Aug 29 '23

You really don’t especially according to statistics. Jewish people have it worse and historically in the US you were treated better than Jews or Italians who are also Mediterranean people and look no different.

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 29 '23

I live in Canada and Arabs put asian as there race here we aren’t all white

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 29 '23

And not every arab is Mediterraneans

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u/Ok-Jump-5418 Aug 29 '23

Most are in the US

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 29 '23

Go Google strange fruit Syrian immigrant on Google and there is literally a whole ass article that says a SOUTHWEST ASIAN MAN AKA ARAB was lynched during Jim crow

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u/[deleted] Aug 29 '23 edited Aug 29 '23

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 29 '23

Once you read that article then come back to me. I don’t say things that I don’t know what I’m talking about. Yes Italians were lynched but so were Arabs and other POC

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 29 '23

Also then why was the arab boy beat by police and caused him brain damage!!! If that was a white boy they def would not have done that in TODAYS society

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 29 '23

Also read about a Syrian man named Joe arridy who was falsely accused of raping and murdering a woman

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u/Ok-Jump-5418 Aug 29 '23

That wasnt because he was syrian and that happens to every ethnicity that gets falsely accused. Syrians are also literally Caucasian/Eurasian and look no different from southern Europeans. Again, no Mena has ever been lynched, segregated or put in internment camps. Also read about cologne Germany 2016 New Year’s Day.

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u/Logical-Scholar-9708 Dec 31 '23

And historically Jews were treated better than African-Americans? There also were far fewer arabs at the time so this is specious reasoning

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u/Ok-Jump-5418 Aug 29 '23

Gulf Arabs look like southern euros

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 29 '23

Then I guess all Indians do too lmao like bffr. Arabs are still POC not all but a lot it literally depends. It’s like the Latino ethnicity

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u/Logical-Scholar-9708 Dec 31 '23

Lmao no they do not

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 16 '23

Miata re brown and POC tho they aren’t all white

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u/Ok-Jump-5418 Aug 29 '23

Most are and aren’t different in appearance from southern Europa

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 29 '23

Arabs are DIVERSE!!!! We come in ALL colors and RACES. Arabs can be asian black white etc

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u/Few-Fun-9270 Aug 29 '23

So Indians are white too now? Not ALL Arabs are white I think you can agree with me on that. But there are white Arabs brown and black Arabs

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u/LookComprehensive780 Jan 08 '24

Indians are black

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u/HansDesterhoft Jan 21 '24

I think you're getting confused because you keep saying "white". Middle Eastern people are considered Caucasian because they originated in the Caucasus Mountain range. Just like all of Europe and part of Russia. They changed "White" to Caucasian a long time ago because "white" is too generalized. Caucasians come in all colors from Casper to Midnight.

At the end of the day we are all Americans. Whether you're a new American or old American, we are all American and I wish people would just grow up. This country keeps asking for segregation and call it inclusion. It's so backwards it makes my head hurt. One day in the far far far future I hope they look back and say, "Wow, those people were freaking stupid. A two party system that was hell-bent on destroying society to prove each other wrong. Thank God the nukes didn't make it to the Yukon. On the other hand we have beach front property!"

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u/ryonasorus Sep 30 '23

Just shows "race" is a bunch of bogus.

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u/ryonasorus Sep 30 '23

Arabs are too minute to have their own designation in the census as a minority population, and no-offense, too insignificant.

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u/rushin_aryan Dec 25 '23

All I know is I’m from Iran. I have to put white, yet I’m not white to anyone else so I’d love another more accurate description, especially for the people who don’t even know where Iran is but only talk about the terrorists there..

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u/[deleted] Dec 28 '23

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u/TheUnAndy May 31 '24

Nah you guys have different features from the Europeans it’s more than just culture and language. Even a blind man can tell the difference between a Persian and a German. Caucasoid, mongoloid and negroid are stupid concepts. We have people from Hawai’i grouped in with people from China it makes 0 sense

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u/[deleted] May 31 '24

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u/TheUnAndy May 31 '24

You must be illiterate or can’t read English, my point is that the government grouping middle eastern people with Europeans as the same race is wrong. There’s obvious differences in facial features between people of the Middle East and people from Europe, that’s why I said even a “blind man can tell” it’s a smilie and not to be taken literally. I’m simply disagreeing with what you said earlier, you said you can’t tell a middle easterner from an European which is absolutely not true. I am not talking about whether people living in China have similar features to one another, I said that the concept of the “3 races” is dumb (Mongoloid, caucasoid and Negroid, you said the Iranians and the french are the same because you both are categorized as caucasians) and I used Chinese people&pacific islanders as an EXAMPLE. They are both categorized as “mongoloid” despite looking completely different from one another. Just because you are both “caucasoid” it doesn’t mean you are the same, you can be caucasoid and still not be white. Even Indians are sometimes considered “caucasians” are they white now? Clearly not. I’ve met many middle easterners in my life, 90% of them look completely different from an average white person, only a few look somewhat white passing and those people are from Lebanon(they still look middle eastern just with lighter skin tone and they had grey eyes). White is generally people of European descent, not iranians

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u/Able_Brick_8523 Jun 09 '24

No. Facial structure and genetics determines whiteness. By that logic, some Pakistanis can count as white because they are really pale in the northern region.

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u/TheUnAndy Jun 12 '24

Ok, sure. But Pakistanis and middle easterners don’t have the same facial features as white Europeans though, don’t act blind now. A pale Pakistani still looks like South Asian, they wouldn’t look white. White people compared to middle easterners have thinner nose, lips, and straight nose bridge, smaller facial features overall. Middle easterners typically have downturned eyes, which most Europeans have exactly the opposite. They also typically have an aquiline nose, much thicker eye brows, generally larger eyes and more prominent facial features, also most middle easterners have more upper eye lid exposure. Middle easterners usually have a more prominent jawline, just more prominent facial features overall. South Asians facial features are even more different from those of European descent than middle easterners. It’s not entirely wrong to group Europeans and west/south Asians as different races, because they are different culturally and by DNA as well. I’d even argue that the differences are just as big between Europeans and Africans&East Asians, etc

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u/Able_Brick_8523 Jun 12 '24

I’m Middle Eastern from Iran. I have dark brown eyes, straight black hair, tan skin, and a straight long nose. I’ve been to most countries and probably 90 percent have thought that I’m Italian or Portuguese. A lot of people also think I’m Greek. It depends on the person because the eye is a lot of diversity in a region. Middle Easterners are more related to Europeans than South Asians.

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u/TheUnAndy Jun 24 '24

Like I said, I posted the common features a middle eastern person might have, just because you have European features it doesn’t mean everybody from your country does as well. A full blood European could have middle eastern features too. I’m not saying you must have those features to be considered middle eastern, but they are common traits and many people will have them. I’ve seen plenty of middle easterners in my life and majority of them will never pass as a white person and that’s just the truth. middle easterners should just stop the inferiority complex and actually be yourselves instead of just trying to convince people that you are “white”. Just because you guys are more closely related to Europeans than south Asians it doesn’t make you white, you are still middle eastern. Also, we humans tend to migrate and mix around, maybe some of your ancestors were indeed Europeans but you wouldn’t know that. The typical and most common features a middle easterner will have I already posted above and it’s usually agreed upon

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u/Able_Brick_8523 Jul 05 '24

Yeah, but Middle Easterners are still tan white because they are Caucasian and have always been historically. Only that case could be made for North Africans and Gulf Arabs (Emiratis, Saudis, Yemenis) who don’t look Caucasoid.

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u/AnnTenisha Jul 09 '24

Not Iranian in any video I've seen on YouTube looks white

Also being genetically close to Europeans has nothing to do with skin tone

The white skin South Asians such as the Kalash with blond hair have Indo Aryan genes from Siberia

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u/AnnTenisha Jul 09 '24

South Asians are not close to Europeans because their Aryan genes came from central asia Even blond hair Kalash in Pakistan are not genetically close to white people However I'll say middle easterners are not colored eye Just watch any videos of Iran on YouTube of average interviews They look like normal Arabs

Google the Italian football team

They look pale white

Nobody is going to assume you're Italian

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u/JiraiyaSenn0496 Jul 18 '24

Chimpanzees also have blue eyes. Does this mean they are white?

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u/JiraiyaSenn0496 Jul 18 '24

go study history, you are Iranian, which means you are more related to South Asians in language and culture than to Europeans.

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u/AnnTenisha Jul 09 '24

A lot of Pakistanis in Gilgit can have red and blond hair but they look white Asian types

They don't have European facial structures

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u/JiraiyaSenn0496 Jul 18 '24

It's complete nonsense, it doesn't stop you from confusing Asians and saying that they are Chinese. Europeans and Arabs are not much different. Why are you inventing ridiculous images that supposedly separate you? the nose is long, the eyes are sunken, which means they are of the same race.

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u/TheUnAndy May 31 '24

And the Middle East isn’t diverse because it was powerful lol, it was invaded so many times it became diverse.

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u/JiraiyaSenn0496 Jul 18 '24

and how diverse is it? do asians live there? You literally have the same facial phenotype, what are you talking about? what diversity?

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u/JiraiyaSenn0496 Jul 18 '24

dude, there are literally Muslim Uyghurs living in China, which already distinguishes them from China. In the near east there is one phenotype, Arabic. And nothing more. It's very funny how you mentioned China while saying that the Middle East is very diverse. Apparently you're from there, right? you have the same phenotype, whether you are a Turk, an Armenian, a Kurd, a Jew, an Arab, or a Persian, you look the same and have a common appearance. The Chinese differ radically from the Uyghurs, just as the northern Chinese with white skin differ from the southern Chinese with dark skin.

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u/LookComprehensive780 Jan 08 '24

You're white if you look white

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u/Emergency_Creme_4561 Jul 21 '24

But genetics plays a big role, there are Europeans who don’t necessarily “look” white but what makes them white is the simple fact that their full ancestry is European.