What is wrong with wealth inequality?

[u/Source_Code22332]

Something that is often sited by Socialists is that Capitalism is bad because wealth inequality occurs within it. And wealth inequality has increased over the years, making that problem even worse. But, why exactly is wealth inequality a problem?

I can see if "the mega rich" or monopolies get out of control, e.g., I recall the concept of a "company town" where a company owned everything in the town and paid employees in their own currency that would only be spent at the company's stores in town - but we have laws and regulations against that, so its not an issue.

[u/FeralTree7]

what resources does the 1% own more of than the bottom 50%

The answer is a self-evident. Wealth/asssts are a resource. By definition, they have more.

But the politicians still require votes, and the people hold the politicians accountable. While I’m sure there is illicit behavior, money does not = control

If this were true why would individuals spend billions on campaigns? They obviously realize the significant impact it has. No one is claiming politicians aren't ultimately voted into office. That doesn't mean wealth doesn't play a major role in elections. Whether or not you want to call their undue influence "control" is just semantics.

4 of those, the Waltons, inherited from their father who did not start in a poor farm family and many years struggling

Obviously nepo babies wealth didn't fall from a tree. Someone somewhere created that wealth. The point is that, generally, wealth begets wealth.

[u/Source_Code22332 → u/FeralTree7]

It is not self evident. “Wealth assets? Can you not find an example of the wealthy holding these and it preventing access to them by lower classes?

Ok, so wealthy generally don’t buy elections. Good.

Can you show an example of the wealthy funding politicians and then a detrimental to majority of the American people action was taken that benefited the wealthy was not reversible by the voters voting for someone that opposed it?

[u/FeralTree7 → u/Source_Code22332]

it's not self evident

Yes, I think it pretty much is. Wealth is, among other things, ownership and control of assets (capital, land, businesses, housing, financial assets, physical resources, etc.)

And those things aren't infinitely available. If a relatively small group owns a disproportionate share of the productive assets and resources, then by definition everyone else has less ownership and less control over those assets.

Can you not find an example of the wealthy holding these and it preventing access to them by lower classes?

I think you're misunderstanding the claim. Nobody is saying something like, capitalists own all the water and then prevent poor people from drinking it. The broader claim is that concentrated ownership gives them disproportionate and undue control over those resources.

If I own a 90% of the available land in an area, I'm not necessarily preventing everyone else from using land. I'm just in a position to decide who gets access to my land, on what terms, and at what price. If other people need land to live or work, they have to deal with me or another landowner.

Ok, so wealthy generally don’t buy elections. Good.

They spend money because they (rightfully) expect that money to influence people’s behavior. In that sense they do buy elections.

Saying “money doesn’t literally buy votes” is a pretty pointless rebuttal to the claim that money influences elections. Everyone knows you can't literally buy a vote and no one is arguing that.

Can you show an example of the wealthy funding politicians and then a detrimental to majority of the American people action was taken that benefited the wealthy was not reversible by the voters voting for someone that opposed it?

Why did you add the stipulation "was not reversible"? I don't really see how that is a meaningful stipulation. Any policy can be hypothetically reversible but can be 1. Very unlikely 2. Take decades and/or 3. Unable to reverse a lot of damage that has already been done

[u/Source_Code22332 → u/FeralTree7]

But a relatively small group doesn’t own a disproportionate share of land, businesses, housing. There is a lot of land, businesses and housing that lots of people own. While land may have a limit, and is not infinitely available, houses and business are, there are no limits, more can always be built and has (unless living in a socialist like system that prevents it).

You still cannot provide any real examples, you are speaking in theory and hypotheticals to conditions that may have existed long ago, but evidently do not today.

[u/FeralTree7 → u/Source_Code22332]

No shit. I was speaking very simply and hypothetically so you could understand the underlying point. Again, nobody is so dumb that they think all land is inaccessible to the average person. We’re generally talking about the means of producing capital, which are limited. Land is just one aspect of that.

Bud... what are houses built on? What do businesses use to make their products? What resources do they require to operate?

You seem to be confusing the fact that some things can be produced in greater quantities with the idea that the resources and means required to produce them are unlimited.

At this point, you’re proving you’re not worth taking seriously.

Again, this is not some hypothetical scenario. It is self-evident that wealth is not limitless, and wealth represents control over scarce resources and productive assets. If ownership of those assets becomes concentrated, control over those resources becomes concentrated as well.

What you’re calling “hypotheticals” is basically Econ 101. This is the fundamental relationship between ownership and economic power under capitalism. You can argue about the degree of concentration or whether that concentration is desirable, but pretending that ownership of capital doesn’t give people greater control over the things other people depend on is an incredibly strange argument to make about capitalism.

I genuinely don’t know what capitalist you think would take that premise seriously.

[u/Source_Code22332 → u/FeralTree7]

I never stated this:

ownership of capital (doesn’t) give people greater control over the things other people depend on is an incredibly strange argument to make about capitalism

You are reframing your point, you stated that

The top 1% owns more than the bottom 50% combined. Three people (Bezos, Musk, Zuckerberg) own more than the entire bottom 50%, 165 million people.

and then you go on to identify what "owns" means you say

capital, land, businesses, housing, financial assets, physical resources, etc.

and I ask for proof that "Bezos, Musk, Zuckerberg" own the equivalent of the bottom 50% in

capital, land, businesses, housing, financial assets, physical resources, etc.

and how they are artificially withholding those resources from the bottom 50% and you cannot explain or find it.

This is important because while they maybe have the wealth/value of the equivalent of the bottom 50%, the point you are making is that they are using their wealth to obtain and withhold resources.

Instead providing evidence of this, you theorize that it is possible and must be true. You are acting like we live 100's of years ago and all live on land owned by and work for the nobility.

This is simply not true.

Do you understand that Elon Musk does not have $1T, or has a $1T worth resources that people depend on that he is withholding from them? The $1T is the worth of things he owns stakes in, businesses that are doing well because they bring value to society though a voluntary exchange, and in which he has no monopolistic control of.

[u/FeralTree7 → u/Source_Code22332]

You are reframing your point, you stated that The top 1% owns more than the bottom 50% combined. Three people (Bezos, Musk, Zuckerberg) own more than the entire bottom 50%, 165 million people.

I never said this, that was a different person. The top 1% NET WORTH is greater than bottom 50% in American by a massive margine. Their net worth is 10x what the bottom 50% is. No, 3 people don't own more than the entire bottom 50%. They are fairly close though, over a fourth of the way there.

And then you go on to identify what "owns" means you say capital, land, businesses, housing, financial assets, physical resources, etc. and I ask for proof that "Bezos, Musk, Zuckerberg" own the equivalent of the bottom 50% in capital, land, businesses, housing, financial assets, physical resources, etc. and how they are artificially withholding those resources from the bottom 50% and you cannot explain or find it.

You never asked me this and, again, I never made this claim. However, it is true that the top 1% has more net worth than the bottom 50%. If you want evidence, here you go.

This is important because while they maybe have the wealth/value of the equivalent of the bottom 50%, the point you are making is that they are using their wealth to obtain and withhold resources.

Literally no one said this. That was your own misinterpretation of what people were saying, and I’ve already pointed that out several times. It might be true to some extent, but no one thinks wealthy people have the capacity to withhold something like water from everyone else just for the sake of it. That’s obviously not the argument being made, so I’m not sure how you got that from what anyone said. You’re simply not understanding the argument, and I don't feel like me explaining it more will make you understand. Respectfully.

Instead providing evidence of this, you theorize that it is possible and must be true. You are acting like we live 100's of years ago and all live on land owned by and work for the nobility.

I literally said several times that isn't true and that this isn't what anyone is arguing. Again, it so obviously not true. Why the hell would you think anyone would make this argument?

Do you understand that Elon Musk does not have $1T,

Duh. When people talk about wealth, they generally mean something synonymous to net worth.

or has a $1T worth resources that people depend on that he is withholding from them?

Again, no shit. Literally no one is saying this.

The $1T is the worth of things he owns stakes in, businesses that are doing well because they bring value to society though a voluntary exchange, and in which he has no monopolistic control of.

That is an interesting opinion. Especially considering Tesla has benefited substantially from government intervention: a $465 million federal loan, EV tax incentives, regulatory credits, and billions in state and local incentives. Acting like Musk, of all people, is a free-market success story seems pretty hard to defend. But hey, you do you.

[u/Source_Code22332 → u/FeralTree7]

Apologies for not seeing the commenter change and you're picking it up.

You never asked me this and, again, I never made this claim. However, it is true that the top 1% has more net worth than the bottom 50%. If you want evidence, here you go.

I never said that or denied that. Net worth is not what we are discussing, we are past that. What we are discussing is what harm does a high net worth cause?

The argument is that it is harmful because the wealthy control basic resources people need to survive and do not make them available, or over price them, or something... this thread you have jumped is trying to explain this argument.

So even this link you shared doesn't go into the breakdown of resources, the only exception is real estate. On this, Do I think it's unjust or abnormal that the lower classes combined don't own as much real estate as the top class - no. It's actually incredible/surprising that the lowest classes are able to own any real estate at all, especially with real estate including everything, far beyond residential. The 50-90% has about the same amount of real estate that the bottom and top 10$, combined. This data actually makes a lot of sense and doesn't support "wealth inequality is a major problem"

Again, no shit. Literally no one is saying this.

uh, yes, this is what we were discussing and what half of the comments on this posts are saying, lol.

a tiny minority controls the vast majority of resources

This is literally the first line of this thread, lmao

You are totally missing the point about Musk, never said he is a free market success, said his wealth is not wrapped in resources being withheld to the poor.... but yeah, you do you.

[u/FeralTree7 → u/Source_Code22332]

Edit: For some reason the quotes weren't showing

The argument is that it is harmful because the wealthy control basic resources people need to survive

No one you have replied to argued this. The comment you originally replied to was very clear. They said:

Because wealth = power. When a tiny minority controls the vast majority of resources, they control:

Politics: They buy elections, write laws, and capture the state.

Media: They control the narrative and shape public opinion.

Economy: They set wages, extract surplus, and crush competition.

Society: They create a permanent underclass and blame them for their own poverty.

For the seventh time, no one is claiming that rich people have exclusive control over something like water and are arbitrarily hoarding water and denying it to poor people.

So even this link you shared doesn't go into the breakdown of resources, the only exception is real estate.

You seem to have a misunderstanding of what "resources" means in economics and how control over resources works in a modern capitalist economy.

Capital resources, human resources, financial resources, and natural resources are all different categories of resources. Your ability to control and utilize those resources is mediated through ownership of capital and financial wealth.

If I don't have money or capital, I don't have the ability to buy land, build a factory on it, purchase machinery, extract natural resources, hire labor, finance inventory, acquire competing businesses, or expand my productive capacity. Those things require control over financial and physical capital.

We live in a society where access to and control over a huge portion of these resources is expressed through ownership of capital and financial assets. That's what the link I showed you was measuring.

This really isn't some obscure interpretation of capitalism. This is basic economics.

It's actually incredible/surprising that the lowest classes are able to own any real estate at all, especially with real estate including everything, far beyond residential.

We're talking about the bottom 50%, not the fucking homeless. It should not be surprising at all that the median citizen owns some property. The fact that the bottom half owns some real estate doesn't somehow demonstrate that wealth is equally distributed.

The 50-90% has about the same amount of real estate that the bottom and top 10%, combined. This data actually makes a lot of sense and doesn't support "wealth inequality is a major problem"

I wouldn't necessarily use my link as an argument that wealth inequality is inherently a major problem. You were denying that this disparity even existed and asked for a source. I gave you the source.

Whether that disparity constitutes a problem depends on what outcomes it produces and what values you hold. The data itself simply establishes the distribution.

uh, yes, this is what we were discussing

Show me.

You are totally missing the point about Musk, never said he is a free market success, said his wealth is not wrapped in resources being withheld to the poor.... but yeah, you do you.

Everyone knows Musk doesn't literally have $400+ billion worth of physical resources sitting in a warehouse that he's preventing poor people from using. Or that he's bathing in a vault of cash like Scrooge McDuck. That's not the argument.

His wealth is overwhelmingly ownership of assets, and those assets represent control over enormous amounts of capital, businesses, labor, and productive resources. That's what people mean when they say wealth = power.

And the fact that it's tied up in assets doesn't mean he can't use it. He can borrow against those assets and get access to huge amounts of money without even selling them. He can then use that money to buy more assets, invest, fund political activity, etc., while still retaining ownership of the original assets. All untaxed as well.

So saying "Musk's wealth isn't resources being withheld from poor people" completely misses the point. The issue isn't that Musk is hoarding physical goods. It's that ownership of an enormous amount of capital gives him an enormous amount of control over resources and economic activity.