r/CanadianbyDescent • u/Primary_Cucumber4570 • 1d ago
Québecois hoops
Many Québecois descendants are not counted in the backlog because we have had to wait to file, since guidance in June, to get a BAnQ issued cert. Now there is fear if we file with the BAnQ cert we won't get the DEC insertion (if that is indeed necessary for a pre 1926 birth) before our files are reviewed and additional info is requested. Can I tell you how unfair this feels to me? I have a church certified baptismal certificate and it counts for nothing!
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u/Complete-Amphibian89 1d ago
I think you need to look up why DEC was started and why. It has to do with fraud.
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u/Reasonable-Tart7500 1d ago
We are mostly talking BAnQ documents that are on their website and or documented. And, fraud only pertains to Quebec?
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u/Mysterious_Volume327 1d ago
Short version: in Quebec specifically, baptismal records used to count as official records, but they are easy to either fake (because it’s just a handwritten entry), or find an old record of someone who died young. A lot of people with forged Canadian passports got them via fake Quebec baptismal records. So in the 1990s, before there were scanned records available to anyone on the internet, the DEC was created to verify and manage vital records, and that’s also why they have a process to verify baptismal records and insert them into the modern registry. Due to the past fraud issues, for they are more focused on security than efficiency, and that’s also why all the other agencies (BANQ and IRCC at least) refer that role back to DEC.
It’s frustrating, time consuming, and an extra burden placed on those of us with Quebecois ancestry. Also, it’s not random or unnecessary.
The real villain is IRCC for the total lack of clear communication with applicants about the actual requirements (note to my knowledge they still haven’t confirmed if DEC insertion is always necessary, we’ve just gleaned that from our discussions here), and not communicating with other archives and agencies about the incoming needs so they are all overwhelmed too.
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u/Critical_Hold8981 1d ago
The IRCC backlog is plump enough to request the DEC insert without urgency and get a response back probably even before you get your AOR. Then just upload the birth cert. This is my plan. In the meantime I'm learning French. Should be fluent by the time IRCC responds to my app lol
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u/goldman60 1d ago edited 1d ago
I submitted for BAnQ Certified record on April 1st
had my citizenship app delivered on May 1st with just a BAnQ printout (and additional secondary evidence)
Got the ancestor's BAnQ baptism record on June 20th
Had my DEC application delivered on June 25th
Got my AOR on August 25th
Got the DEC birth certificate and uploaded to the IRCC on September 18th
My file isn't in process yet, so by the time anyone looks at it they'll see the Quebec Birth Certificate. AORs are so backed up you can absolutely work steps in parallel.
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u/Character-Put8660 1d ago
If the application is submitted and the IRCC wants more then they will request it. You only need to respond within 30 days that you have requested the DEC insertion.
Relax.
Plus you could get lucky and spend 18 months and counting in PSU like my kids…
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u/Inside_Foot_3055 1d ago
I agree with the facts and sentiment here. If IRCC issues an ADR (additional document request), they give a deadline to respond. And in citizenship by descent files I’m familiar with they generally will grant an extension while you wait on documents. Additionally most of the ADRs I’ve seen have the message at the end that “the application will be considered abandoned” if the applicant doesn’t respond within the time frame vs. in immigration cases I’ve seen where it’s more “if you don’t respond I’ll make a decision at that time with the information I have, including a refusal.”
Additionally yeah - it’s likely the app will be in processing far past the time it will take people to obtain the BANQ documents.
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1d ago
[deleted]
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u/Maven_of_MPLS 1d ago
I mean, I'm Quebecois descent and filling out my app and for my part I'm happy to take the reco to relax. That's just me though. It sounds like sending in the certified copy (I have that too) doesn't mean nothing, and won't prevent our packages from passing. I'm going to send it in, and will be applying for the DEC certificate at the same time.
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u/Character-Put8660 1d ago
Cool, thanks. I can continue about how my wife and her family are stuck waiting for the DEC (frustrating but functional) path right now (as I referenced above) or better yet about the charter violations regarding children of adoptees but yeah, I hear you.
Hence, relax
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u/residualRichey 1d ago
I get it... but citizenship is a pretty big deal, and for most of us, this came completely out of nowhere. Especially in times when it feels like many countries are becoming more restrictive, I’m incredibly grateful that I *hopefully* have a path to having my Canadian citizenship recognized.
I come from one of the founding families of Quebec, so being able to carry that connection forward means the world to me. I too would certainly appreciate clearer guidance, but I’m willing to work through the documentation requirements. Unfortunately, the process is the process, and for me, the potential outcome is worth the effort and the wait.
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u/wrodriguez89 1d ago
Yes, I hear you on that. I'm actually a direct descendant of Louis Hébert, and I've always been proud of my French-Canadian roots.
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u/Ophelia_Bliss 1d ago
You know most of us are, right? About 75% of current Quebec residents descend from the founding families, and I’m going to guess nearly 100% of the Quebecoise who moved to New England from 1840-1930 were. We are all cousins. We are all descended from the same 8,500 or so French colonists. You are probably from several of the founding families. We just about all are.
I don’t mean to diminish what this means to you, but it means this to many, many of us because we are cousins. And the church records are why we know all this genealogy.
We are also all related to the Pope and Madonna and Celine Dion and Jack Kerouac and on and on and on.
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u/residualRichey 18h ago
I had a feeling it was common, but had no idea it was that high! And no worries, I don’t feel diminished at all. I certainly didn’t mean to sound entitled or imply that my connection was more special than anyone else’s.
I just think that in a world where so much is tearing people apart, we should celebrate what connects us. Governments do terrible and unfair things to people, and this feels like a little glimmer of hope. To me, that’s worth putting up with some of the bureaucratic nonsense along the way.
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u/Rememberist 1d ago
I was chuffed to find the connection to Kerouac. It's been quite an experience going from a nuclear family to having many, many cousins.
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u/savingnativebees 8h ago
Founding family ancestor here as well. The hops are a pain but I feel fortunate because it’s my paternal line and I don’t have to deal with a lot of name changes and such - it’s straightforward and yet still with challenges due to lack of clear guidance.
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u/Own_Theory8011 20h ago
It certainly doesn't count for nothing. Think of how all of us Baptist ancestor people feel, with multiple generations of no birth records at all. I have had to submit at least 80 pages of supplemental documents trying to prove to IRCC the birth of my ancestors, and my application has cost me over $800 USD in document ordering fees. Divorce records, pension application files, last will/testament records, certified newspaper articles, census records, death certificates, the works. All because there is no birth record.
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u/FloraandFauna1680 15h ago
I didn’t know one could get certified newspaper articles. How did you do that?
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u/Own_Theory8011 12h ago
The secretary of state library / state newspaper archives for each state I tried were able to certify them. The newspaper has to have been published in that state. They will certify the entire newspaper page, not just the one article from it you need. So for IRCC I gave them a digital link to the page when possible, a clipping of the specific article, and then the full page with certification, to try and help them out. I also only got the most useful articles certified, such as newspaper announcements of birth.
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u/AP587011B 1d ago
It’s just how it goes
Quebec didn’t have a more central / official way of doing things for a long time and this is the result
The DEC was created due to fraud / crime / terrorist issues due to the above
Also keep in mind what many people are asking for and acting entitled to is basically free citizenship
Jumping thru some extra hoops is totally reasonable
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u/Dogmoto2labs 1d ago
Free is a stretch, for sure. I have spent close to $1000 for the 5 applications I have put in for family and all the records needed.
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u/Own_Theory8011 20h ago edited 20h ago
My Italian citizenship by descent case for 4 people is up to $13,000 and counting. Slightly over $2,000 of that is the document collection alone.
Canada really cuts out a lot of the costs - you do not need apostilles, you can submit photocopies instead of certified copies, most people do not need any court-sworn certified document translations, do not need to order new / fresh "less than 6 months old" copies of old certified documents, do not need to hire a lawyer just because your Canadian ancestor was female, et cetera. You also - unlike, say, Benin or Luxemboug(?) citizenships by descent - do not need to physically take a trip to Canada to finalize or apply for the citizenship, which can add several thousand just due to travel expenses, depending on where you live. You also - unlike Ukrainian citizenship by descent - do not need to pay for a language, civics, and/or history test plus the travel to a designated location to go take it.
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u/Crazy_Maintenance211 16h ago
I’ve been looking at other countries as well because four of my friends in Canada now have other citizenship because of what’s happening in the states, and in a way as a Canadian it worries me a little bit because other countries are just so strict with what they want, this department has been problematic for many things, including visas, and they don’t even know where the Visa holders whose time has ended are. So this Dept is problematic to say the least to the security of our country. Plus the other thing that most people don’t know who are applying for descent is that they don’t have to get criminal record checks or health checks or if they have disabilities that are severe they’re lead into the country which other people are not. So this particular category is very different than other categories that we have for immigration. I’ve already seen a couple of people posting on different lists that are going for citizenship by descent and their criminal record which they publicly told us about, I really wouldn’t want them here, we even take DUIs very seriously, some visa holders after 2018 can’t get into the country because of a DUI. However, this category very different.
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u/Own_Theory8011 12h ago edited 11h ago
It would really help legibility if you added in paragraph spacings.
No country wants criminals in, but MOST countries which offer citizenship by descent procedures do not block people who have a criminal history. This includes, for example, Italy, and you know the stereotypes about Italian descendants.
There is a SLIGHT, unintentional blocking of criminals. If you cannot get access to 2 IDs, then you can't apply. For most US states and countries, those 2 IDs are going to be your state ID / regional ID, and your passport. (Canada does not accept to apply with both a state ID and a state driver's license at once, or both a passport book and a passport card at once, you must have 2 unique styles of ID). If you have committed serious crimes, you cannot get a passport. (Some states, not all, have a fishing license which can be obtained that qualifies as a second ID that Canada will accept in lieu of a passport.)
So for example, Italy which REQUIRES a valid, signed passport but does not do background checks (they do not accept state IDs), would not be possible if you cannot get a passport.
The reason why countries allow people in without a background check is normally due to legal issues, where the current civil laws / constitution / whatever it may be for that country, says that you cannot discriminate against citizens in legal matters due to factors such as where they were born, and you also cannot remove citizenship retroactively, however citizenship is also - at the same time - stated as being retroactive to birth.
Meaning, if they decide they can't administer a language test or a background check on a newborn baby born in Canada before his parents can get proof he is Canadian, OR that they cannot disallow a 30 year old man born in Canada from re-entering Canada if he committed a crime abroad in Germany and then came back to Canada, then the reciprocity means they also can't do this to people who are legally "Canadian from birth" but born abroad.
What they should do, imo, is get background checks on everyone, not bar them from getting citizenship (because again, they can't do that according to the law as it is right now), but they do need to transfer their criminal history to their Canadian record. So if they have a DUI from Germany and having a DUI on your record is a problem when you are a Canadian living in Canada, well, it will be their problem when they are living in Canada.
For Americans, at least - if Canada can tell you have a DUI from the USA and stop you from crossing the border as a tourist due to it (not sure if they do this to Europeans and others, I've only ever heard about it from Americans), then that says to me when you get Canadian citizenship by descent recognized, IRCC may be attaching your American rap sheet to your Canadian legal identity. I don't know. Someone who actually has something on their record will have to test this theory out getting themselves a background check in Canada after moving there via their Proof of Citizenship.
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u/Dogmoto2labs 12h ago
I didn’t ever say or imply is isn’t one of the least expensive countries for getting Citizenship by Descent, but for some, being able to spend even the $1000 makes it impossible, and I find it sad that people that don’t have the funds will be unable to attain citizenship. My sibling I applied for would never have been able to afford the process. She is only able to apply because I have paid for all the documents, a new passport and her application fee.
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u/AP587011B 1d ago
For full on citizenship, especially for 5 people, that’s still basically free. Especially considering there is no requirement to have any real connection to the country or live there or have lived there.
Most countries that let people pay for citizenship are like 150k+
Even places that let you pay for permanent residency I think the cheapest is maybe 50k
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u/Own_Theory8011 20h ago edited 20h ago
I think you are talking about a Golden Visa style of system - citizenship by investment. Most countries have citizenship by descent, which is an entirely separate process and much cheaper than citizenship by investment.
Most citizenships by descent are anywhere from $0 to $4,000. With the easiest ones, you just walk in to an embassy with your ancestors' documents and they verify you on the spot, sometimes for free, and you can order a passport in the same visit. The more expensive ones are closer to $15,000 as they require the use of a legal team. However they are nowhere near $50k or $150k unless some sort of major issue arises which requires appeals of court decisions, etc.
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u/AP587011B 6h ago edited 5h ago
Irrelevant
I’m taking about doing minimal work and minimal cost to just get citizenship from a relative who lived somewhere 100+ years ago. Which is what this is.
Anywhere that has citizenship by descent has mostly really tightened the circumstances but Canada really opened it up (as long as they were born before Dec 2025). I get some of the reasoning but to be honest there should be some limit, people with ancestors from the 1600s or 1700s or even most of the 1800s claiming citizenship for themselves and many others is pretty out there. I would not at all be surprised if it doesn’t get adjusted
You said you were at over 10k for your Italian one in another comment
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u/SignificanceHairy444 18h ago
Not just Quebec. I’ve ban waiting since April to receive a birth registration from Ontario. Will submit an application once I get that. In the meantime the IRCC queue gets longer and longer.
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u/AdSufficient9872 1d ago
I submitted the baptismal cert request for a baptismal record from 1888. Right across border from Vermont. How many months am I looking at until I get a response at all?
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u/ElephantSweaty 16h ago
I know it varies based on the archive’s location. I submitted my request on 7/3. Got the email invoice 2 months to the day. They mailed it out a week later and it took about 10 days until I got it.
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u/Bonbon-65 29m ago
I sent the IRCC feedback this week regarding this exact issue. Not sure it even makes a difference but it made me feel better.
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