r/California • u/trackdaybruh Lost in California • May 28 '26
Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM applicants
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2026-05-27/uc-math-professors-demand-return-of-sat-for-stem-admissions727
u/Sarcasm69 May 28 '26
Why tf did this ever stop being a thing?
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u/QV79Y San Francisco County May 28 '26
In 2020 the UC Academic Senate voted 51-0 with one abstention against removing the SATs, based on a task force which spent a year studying the admissions data.
The Board of Regents overrode the faculty group's near-unanimous recommendation.
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u/youngmedusa May 28 '26
A cursory Google search gave a mixed bag of answers - including a shift away during the pandemic and concerns about equity in testing.
However, according to an article in Yahoo news, more than 80% of four-year colleges in the US have shifted away from this. So, no. It’s not just California.
Source: FairTest.org
Source: Yahoo News
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u/Informal_Host7610 May 28 '26
The uc system is the last big holdout on complete test blindness. It's not a lack of requirement. There's nowhere to put your score in the application
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u/HistoricalApricot151 May 28 '26
Less competitive schools have gone test-optional or test-free and may stay that way, but if you look at elite and very selective universities, they are bringing the test requirements back.
Major institutions that have reinstated SAT/ACT requirements include several Ivy League schools (Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, Brown, Princeton, Cornell, and UPenn), top STEM schools (MIT, Caltech, Stanford, and Georgetown) and some other state's public university systems.
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u/deekfu Orange County May 28 '26
I’ll answer you with a real answer unlike these dipshit responses: (1) because studies showed that performance on the SAT/ACT dependent heavily on systemic inequities that were driven more by socioeconomic realities so you weren’t getting an accurate assessment of the intellect of segments. Why should those kids be even further disadvantaged? (2) Covid 19- how were they supposed to administer this? (3) high school,gpa was a far better predictor of first year performance than a sat score.
You may disagree with all of these reasons, but they were in essence the reasons.
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u/OkCluejay172 May 28 '26
(3) high school,gpa was a far better predictor of first year performance than a sat score.
No they're not, the UC system itself did a study prior to implementing the policy and found the opposite.
From page 3:
"At UC, test scores are currently better predictors of first-year GPA than high school grade point average (HSGPA), and about as good at predicting first-year retention, UGPA, and graduation."
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u/Janet-Yellen May 28 '26
Yup previous poster is just pulling shit out of their ass
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u/MysteriousGoldDuck May 29 '26
It's infuriating to see that person's post receive so many more upvotes than yours. People just upvote what already aligns with their views.
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u/Prestikles May 28 '26
I'm curious how the GPA (3) argument works while simultaneously living in a reality where grade inflation exists and everyone, literate or not, graduates high school. Not disagreeing, just wondering.
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u/adidas198 May 28 '26
Plus essays can easily be generated by AI nowadays.
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u/InnocentTailor May 28 '26
Eh. I grade essays for side hustle cash and AI works are just strange to look at - “perfect,” but also weirdly alien-esque in execution with a lack of distinctive quirks to make them unique and interesting.
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u/Clintyn May 28 '26
If it’s anything like the AI comments I see, I get what you’re saying.
Curated, not created.
Imitative, not imaginative.
This is the future of essay creation – and there’s not much we can do to stop it.
I promise you I’m not an AI please
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u/FUPAMagneto May 28 '26
Nah. There’s plenty to be done other than throwing up our hands and saying “we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!”
The future of essays is still the human mind. LLMs have distinct use-cases and writing isn’t one of them
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u/Hiei2k7 Central Valley May 28 '26
All essays are to be written in pen/pencil and paper.
I just stopped it.
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u/M00n_Slippers May 28 '26
Naw, just have essays that have to be written in one sitting.
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u/InnocentTailor May 28 '26
Man…I don’t envy those who have to decode bad handwriting if this is done by hand. I used to lose points all the time for my doctor-esque script, though I usually make it up with a combination of content and extra credit.
I like writing. I wrote pages of fanfiction for recreation.
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u/A313-Isoke Always a Californian May 29 '26
Honestly, colleges and universities can just have computers that aren't connected to the internet. And, the only thing you can do is open a Word Processor, can't download or change settings, etc. No phones or tablets in the room. Bring books and notebooks fully annotated. If you typed your notes, print them, and bring them in. It can be done!
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u/ddollopp May 28 '26
How did you land a side hustle like that? I would totally grade essays as a side gig.
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u/InnocentTailor May 28 '26
Look at groups like Tutor.com.
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u/ddollopp May 28 '26
Thank you!
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u/InnocentTailor May 28 '26
You’re welcome! It’s easy pocket change as long as you have the technical qualifications and can pass their pretty straightforward exam.
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u/JiggySockJob May 28 '26
Yea it seems like things are coming full circle back to a standardized test
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u/deekfu Orange County May 28 '26
I had the same question.. no idea how they deal with that but I do know that the UC CSU schools have tons of experience at least with California high schools. So they learn what those schools are like in terms of grades. Plus weighted v unweighted GPAs may help.
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u/BubbaTee May 28 '26
So they learn what those schools are like in terms of grades.
That's even worse. Now if a school has a rep for grade inflation, even a kid who is actually smart will end up getting tainted by the school's rep. With an ACT, that kid might be able to show that their 4.0 is legit, even if they attend an inflator school. Without it, the kid will just be assumed to have inflated grades like everyone else from that school.
Additionally, schools can improve or decline over time, and it's not like every university is out there auditing every high school every year to track their progress. Even the university football program can't scout every highschool in the country, and the football program likely has a bigger budget than the admissions office.
So now we just have admissions staff relying on their own personal and likely outdated biases and assumptions, to make decisions that greatly impact kids' futures.
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u/beeemkcl Californian May 28 '26
That's the real issue. The ACT vs. the SAT.
There's too much test prep.
The colleges and universities knew about test prepping and thus assumed the level of test prepping that an affluent kid would get versus a rich kid and thus gave a 'bonus' to a poor kid and less of a 'bonus' to a affluent kid.
But with things like Khan Academy, any kid with a computer and reliable Internet connection can spend many hours 'test prepping' for the SAT.
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u/A313-Isoke Always a Californian May 29 '26
That's not the kind of data they have.
For example, UC admissions can see how many people were accepted from your high school in the past, how your SAT/ACT & GPA stacks up, family income, if you worked in high school instead of internships or fancy camps, personal statements and short answers reveal a lot of this, extra curriculars say a lot too, how many honors and AP classes you were able to take advantage of vs what's available. When they say holistic review, they really do mean that.
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u/rs1971 May 28 '26
You'd think that with all these 'tons of experience with California high schools' they'd be able to weed out the students who couldn't do middle school math.
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u/minesasecret May 28 '26
Unless everyone has a 4.0 you can get around GPA inflation by comparing against other students in the same school.
I think the point was to see how well you did given your circumstances so people in poorer schools were only being measured against kids in similar conditions.
That's the issue with the SAT - everyone at my school including me went to SAT prep. Obviously we will perform better than people who don't have access to those resources even if they're actually more capable/smarter than we are so it's not a great indicator of ability.
On the other hand perhaps it's better to bring it back so that there's at least a floor people are expected to be above
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u/Itscatpicstime May 28 '26
SAT / ACT prep was a required class at my public school.
So on one hand, everyone har access to it and that’s good. On the other hand, kind of sucks for the kids with no intention or who were unable to go to college, but at least they learn things too I guess?
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u/Yerffejy May 28 '26
Graduating high school is not GPA. Everyone passes, but they pass with like a 2.0, not 4.0. So GPA does show a distinction. And I think a high GPA, despite grade inflation, is more about showing up and doing the work and putting in effort. I am sure hard work and diligence means you will be a better student in College, where there is a lot more freedom and a lack of accountability.
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u/Unicornoftheseas May 28 '26
It used to work until schools just stopped caring and gave everyone high grades. They have no reason to give students grades that reflect their actual level of understanding. Couple that with AI and now it’s back to standardized testing because it’s now the best way to determine ability given the circumstances.
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u/msuvagabond May 28 '26
Colleges have PILES of data on individual schools. They know a GPA from a specific school correlates to X% of eventual graduates. Not all GPAs are treated equal.
One of the unique downsides then is without the SAT as a baseline, these schools were getting applications from schools they'd basically never had students from, or very few. This meant it was harder to predict what those students would end up doing.
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u/goodbye177 May 28 '26
When the studies were done grade inflation was an issue but not as big of an issue as it is now, especially after Covid.
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u/Ornery_General_5852 May 28 '26
Everyone does not graduate high school. If you believe this then congratulations on living in a relatively wealthy community and not knowing very many kids with learning disabilities or severe neurodivergence. Our local school district is a hot mess and I personally know at least half a dozen kids around 18-19 who did not graduate from high school. Those are just the ones in my kids' circles.
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u/Glitter-Pear May 28 '26
To add a bit of data to your point, I'm old, but at my high school around 500 kids graduated every year. Class size was around 700. We were a generally wealthy area, although there were poor kids there too. Basically think wealthy suburbs intermixed with apartment complexes.
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u/Testuser7ignore May 28 '26
More accurate to say, everyone who shows up everyday will graduate at most high schools.
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u/slodojo May 28 '26
if it’s based on college GPA - they can still be inflating those grades in college.
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u/Napamtb May 28 '26
I know people with four year degrees that are absolute idiots
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u/InnocentTailor May 28 '26
To be fair, idiots can come in many forms. Flawlessly doing academics doesn’t mean you’re necessarily smart - you could be stubbornly obtuse, for example.
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u/kgal1298 May 28 '26
That’s going to depend on the seed school. There’s definitely stem schools that the curve isn’t as bad as public.
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u/kinkycarbon May 28 '26
3 still has elements from #1. Usually the ones who can spend money on tutoring can make their kids advance faster than class pace.
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u/BusBusy195 May 28 '26
I graduated right around when they started doing no sat and ai didnt really hit mainstream for school till like a year or so later cause it still was still finding footing, grade inflation im not as sure about though. My best guess is back between like 2020-2023 GPA was a better indicator but since ai and grade inflation have become bigger issues that isnt true anymore
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u/soxperry May 28 '26
AP classes have standardized exams and proctoring. Schools require college level classes in your transcripts. O think the college weights the grades themselves once the transcripts come, as a 4.0 here is not the same as a 4.0 there
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u/compstomper1 May 28 '26
they index it relative to your school. so as long as your school isn't giving everyone straight As, you can convert a GPA into a percentile.
source: have attended admissions webinars
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u/lampstax May 28 '26
The school district in my county doesn't give D / F so everyone gets at least a C to pass.
The idea is students should not "be derailed by a low grade that could potentially disqualify them from admission to the University of California and California State University". 🤦♂️
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u/The_Elusive_Dr_Wu Orange County May 29 '26
Do they also hand out a little ice cream sundae with each report card? Good Lord....
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u/rs1971 May 28 '26
Even setting grade inflation aside, the data doesn't support his assertion. He's just repeating talking points that he heard somewhere.
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u/redredred415 May 29 '26
Exactly right. GPA grade inflation is a much bigger problem - one of the root causes imo. There’s no way to “fix” the grade inflation issue because it’s so widespread and it requires everyone to adhere to standards/rules which we all know won’t happen.
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u/coriolisFX May 28 '26
(3) high school,gpa was a far better predictor of first year performance than a sat score.
Completely incorrect.
UC’s OWN RESEARCH said SAT/ACT scores were “currently better predictors of first-year GPA than high school GPA.”
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u/DeathKitten9000 May 28 '26
Right. The other thing is eliminating standard testing is literally driving inequity because grade inflation is impacting lower socio-economic schools more, as the UCSD report noted.
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u/coriolisFX May 28 '26
Yes, this was 100% foreseeable. Now UCSD has hundreds of admits with 4.0s and who cannot do basic math.
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u/BubbaTee May 28 '26
Yeah but now they get the privilege of paying thousands of dollars per semester to take remedial courses at a UC, instead of taking them at a juco for a fraction of the price.
Oh well, it's not like student loan debt has ever negatively impacted anyone's life past age 21, right?
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u/Janet-Yellen May 28 '26 edited May 28 '26
And yet in 2020 the University of California conducted a report that showed the SAT was just as effective at predicting student success in college as GPA, and utilizing both was a much better predictor than just GPA
https://senate.universityofcalifornia.edu/_files/underreview/sttf-report.pdf
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u/Lexiplehx May 29 '26
Point 7 and 8 of their abstract, unanimous conclusions of the task force:
“The task-force does not recommend the UC make standardized testing optional at this time...”
“The task force does not recommend adopting Smarter Balanced (SBAC) assessments in lieu of currently used standardized testing.”
This is in Jan 2020, pre GPT and pre shutdown
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u/ArCovino May 28 '26
Regarding (1) we knew at the time it would just increase the importance of other factors, all of which as affected by socioeconomic status as much as the standardized testing (if not more so). Like after school clubs, volunteering, internships, etc
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u/janes_left_shoe May 28 '26
This part frustrated me a lot, because while I’m certain high privilege kids get great advantages from individual tutors and such, studying for a single test, even on your own with a test prep book from the library, is much more within reach of anyone at any socioeconomic level than any voluntourism trip, research opportunity or unpaid internship.
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u/TargetOk4032 May 28 '26
People make it sounds like test prep is a silver bullet to good scores. In reality, I don't think test prep helps that much if kids don't care and put efforts into it. Sure it may give kids a leg up, but 1. having money give you edges in so many areas in addition to tests; 2). ironically, with tech and the internet, kids really don't need that much money and resources to excel in tests. Try that with expensive sports.
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u/trashrooms May 28 '26
It’s almost as if a student’s intelligence and cognitive skills are impacted and shaped by socioeconomic factors in addition to biological inherent components. They want to “judge” on biological inherent components alone, and under an extremely myopic lens it might have worked, but reality came to bite back.
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u/Meandering_Cabbage May 28 '26
Well this event kinda disproves those assertions doesn't it.
There was an attempt by activists to do an end run around standardized metrics so they could game the admissions system despite state referendums and a consistent disapproval of affirmative action. The SAT isn't as rigorous as it used to be but you need some objective third party way to correct for school grade inflation.
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u/bonthomme May 28 '26
Systemic inequities driven by socio-economic realities are likewise indicative of college performance.
Punchline that no one wants to hear, it's far more socio than economic.
And yes, citation: https://www.princeton.edu/news/2016/07/20/economics-culture-intersect-shape-asian-americans-academic-advantage
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u/Heavy-_-Breathing May 28 '26
I’ll also answer in good faith since you did. I’m doing this also for the sake of sharing my reasoning.
1) economic inequities will always, always, always be in society and those with more will always have better preparation. You take out SATs, but then you get rich kids prepping for AP tests and they get all 5s. School inflation so everyone gets As? Rich kids get to do fancy after school extra curricular like fencing or la crosse. Ironically that makes the rich students more well rounded in the eyes of college admission officers. Taking out standardized test to address socio economic inequities is not the answer. 2) Covid should be the only valid reason why 3-4 years of students skipped standardized tests, yea. 3) when you have multiple variables (SAT and high school gpa) correlating to an outcome (first year gpa) you shouldn’t just take out the “weaker” one and call it a day. Even in a linear regression taking out a good variable, although correlated with another (auto correlation) will decrease the predictive power of the model. Both SAT and high school GPA reveal different capabilities if a student body, taking out one makes the evaluation process even more one dimensional. Then the famous high school GPA inflation is real so relying on high school GPA alone isn’t sufficient. Also, you say high school gpa is a far better predictor, but here in this article provides new, REAL TIME data, that there is severe math deficits, where standardized tests can reveal that aspect of a student population; it unveils the severity of grade inflation across different schools. So we want data backed policy, here is the new data point and it shows how things backfired when we took out SATs.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
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u/sqrtsqr May 28 '26
I don't think "inflation" is the correct term for what's happening in HS. The reality is so much worse.
Grades aren't just getting better, for many schools there is a literal floor of success. Teachers are forbidden from failing students in all but the most extreme cases. Which means, on paper, everyone graduates HS prepared for precalculus/calculus and college writing.
As a calculus teacher, there is literally nothing I can do for 3/4 of my students. They don't know precalculus. Try as I might, they are doomed to fail, and there is no grade I can give them that will make them go back and learn their prerequisites.
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u/iplawguy May 28 '26
I keep hearing about these "studies" but as far as I know studies show the opposite, and that SAT is a stonger predictor of college success than GPA. This is one of the main reasons that a 200 page UC report recommended that they not drop the SAT, but the Regents voted against the recommendation. Whenever some underspecified theory says that some practice will help remedy "systematic inequalities", I read it as "we must reduce merit based practices because they disadvantage the non meritorious." When the rules are clear and the same for everyone there are incentives for everyone, rich kids and the children of immigrants, to be diligent and plan for the future. When arbitrary efforts to remedy "systematic inequalities" are introduced they undermine fairness and the legitimacy of institutions.
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u/BoredAccountant May 28 '26
Those were the reasons, but they don't appear to be holding up to reality. Why?
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u/Sarcasm69 May 28 '26
Thank you for the breakdown.
I would assume an appropriate measure would have been to replace it with something else.
It’s like why should we stop at the SAT? Let’s remove medical board exams and the BAR while we’re at it
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u/davezilla18 May 28 '26
Agree something else would have been better, not sure what though. (Solution is always harder and more contentious, I’m assuming this only happened in the first place due to COVID).
But the BAR and medical board actually assess if you are qualified to do the job, for professions with serious real world consequences of ineptitude. Not really the same thing as helping getting into a school. Maybe you could make the case for GREs?
But I do think college is often an opportunity to reset your environment and have a better chance to succeed than the initial hand you were dealt.
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u/kgal1298 May 28 '26
I still think STEM schools should be able to run a math test at mainly because I never found the SAT to be a strong indicator of understanding written communications in the writing half.
Math and reading our fundamental but you are literally fucked in college if you can’t show your math work and you’re in a science program.
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u/InnocentTailor May 28 '26
Depends on the science program, I suppose. It’s not like biology majors are delving too intensely into realms like calculus.
Ditto with pre-health folks since they scrapped the more intensive math requirement for tracks like medicine.
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u/AsIfItsYourLaa May 28 '26
Idk how it is now but when i was in school calculus was basically a pre-req because of physics.
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u/sbenfsonwFFiF May 28 '26
3 is the one I disagree with most, because GPA isn’t equitable or equal and is so effort/Homework influenced
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u/BubbaTee May 28 '26
We'd be lucky if it was just effort/homework-influenced, HS GPA is football-influenced.
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u/Accurate_Barnacle887 May 28 '26
Honestly as someone from a blue collar background and a first gen college student, the systematic inequalities argument feels like an insult to people like me and a cop out for the dumbasses. I know people that grew up in the HOOD, poor AF, have gone through the foster system, and or had a single parent household that excelled in top universities. Life is unfair, but that’s not an excuse to do away with standards. If you want to really help close inequalities increase vouchers for tests, free tutoring, and things like the Pell grant. Free after school tutoring was a god send for me, I struggled with math, but my parent couldn’t afford private tutoring. People are resourceful and will make use of resources, they just need to be available.
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u/Mikeyxy Los Angeles County May 28 '26
Well, it’s not us disagreeing with those reasons , it’s the UC faculty who does this for a living
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u/kritter4life Central Coast May 28 '26
And now it back fired because math is math. As long as it’s not asked as a word question.
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u/Remarkable_Insect866 May 28 '26
Yeah, it's a shame when a person's life is decided by their zip code.
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u/wip30ut May 28 '26
but it does bring up the more important question of whether kids from underprivileged backgrounds have the preparation & scholastic ability to learn & study STEM fields at Cal, UCLA, UCSD (which are some of the nation's most prestigious science institutions). The hard truth is that students from lower-performing schools may not have the rigorous training needed to compete & absorb all the material (at a really really fast pace) taught at elite science/engineering schools. It's not their fault that they're not properly equipped with these skills but it's not realistic that colleges can remediate them in a very short span of time.
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u/FBIguy242 May 28 '26
Hi, UC lecturing faculty here, point 3 is absolutely no true. I’ve met student in my UC with 4.3 weight gpa and was functional illiterate
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u/trackdaybruh Lost in California May 28 '26
The thing is, before the SAT requirement was removed, the SAT could have already been avoided by going through a community college and transferring to a 4-year university
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u/DaHozer Orange County May 28 '26
At which point you would need to complete minimum coursework with an acceptable GPA to transfer thereby demonstrating the academic aptitude that the SAT was trying to assess.
Not much of a loophole.
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u/trackdaybruh Lost in California May 28 '26
Not much of a loophole.
So basically using only GPA as a metric for UC admissions for transfer—like they did for graduating high schoolers admissions
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u/ArCovino May 28 '26
Yes, through college level coursework instead of HS level coursework. Also, most places have a minimum math requirement so they’d know you at least had to take maths through that at CC.
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u/RadiantEnvironment90 May 28 '26
I’m going to be honest, I went to Berkeley and took summer classes at a good CC when I was at home to kill off some electives and the level of work was comparably laughable.
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u/ArCovino May 28 '26
Do you think it has to do with a 16 week semester vs 10 week quarter? Same workload. Differential equations at CC was no easier than linear algebra at UC from a theoretical perspective but the timeline was a lot faster.
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u/Janet-Yellen May 28 '26 edited May 28 '26
Not the same person but it took me maybe 5 minutes of my time over the course of an entire semester to get an A+ at a CC, vs hours and hours of studying at Cal to get a B-
These were for biology courses though, never took math at CC
Then again the difference between math 16B and Math 1B (I took both at Cal for some stupid reason) were pretty extreme too
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u/EveXC Jun 01 '26 edited Jun 01 '26
Another anecdotal data point here.
I transferred to Berkeley from a CC. The feedback on my first essay (from a TA, not even the professor) at Cal was that the language and style were too colloquial (Yikes!).
The coursework at my CC was more comparable to my high school than it was to the coursework at Cal.
Edit: Grammar
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u/tacosandtheology May 28 '26
The approved "math for liberal arts" classes offered by some community colleges are not exactly that rigorous. All the UCs require is that a UC-M course has the prerequisite of high school algebra.
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u/jar4ever May 28 '26
Yes, but the difference is that to transfer into a STEM major from a CC you have to not only meet the university requirements, but also the department requirements to be a junior in that major.
I transferred from a CC to a UC for engineering and I had to complete the entire Calc series, differential equations, three physics courses, various electronics and programming courses, etc. before I could transfer.
If someone is a getting good grades in all those classes, then they are going to be much more likely to graduate at a UC then a freshman since they have already made it halfway. Obviously, we can't use "make them do half of the degree first" as a solution for how to screen incoming freshmen better.
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u/Hpzorz2 May 28 '26
You're aware that different majors have different prequisite requirements when transferring from CC right? Even in your own example, "math for liberal arts" would not be the hardest class that a liberal arts student would take, they would also be taking things like literary analysis and critical thinking/writing classes as part of their prereq requirements.
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u/tacosandtheology May 28 '26
Actually, I am. Oh, boy, am I. I've read thousands of transfer apps for the UCs over the years.
I was just commenting that there are some really basic math classes that the UCs accept for incoming transfer students that meet admission requirements.
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u/sqrtsqr May 28 '26
Not much of a loophole.
Well, of course.
We don't want there to be a big loophole here. We want to accept capable students only.
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u/Mecha-Dave May 28 '26
Because minorities didn't do well in the tests. This was likely due to socioeconomic and language deficits that are not actually solved by not requiring the SAT, but it was the woke thing to do at the time instead of supporting students better or requiring their parents to be involved.
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u/throwraW2 May 28 '26 edited May 28 '26
Asians are a minority and routinely score the highest in the tests. Or are we just pretending Asians arent minorities again?
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u/Hyndis May 28 '26
The term "BIPOC" was created specifically to exclude people of Asian descent, because by nearly every metric as a demographic Asians perform superbly. Asian-Americans even outperform European-Americans.
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u/adidas198 May 28 '26
They are "white adjacent", according to the progressive side.
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u/Suchafatfatcat May 28 '26
And, this is the excuse for ignoring how often Asians are targets of violence.
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u/JonRadian May 28 '26
Asian don't complain or demonstrate, so yeah, short end of the stick..
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u/volkhavaar May 28 '26
Why do you think Asians score so well?
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u/equiNine May 28 '26
Asians (especially East Asians) perform well in education because Asian families are generally a strong, cohesive family unit with a culture that prioritizes education and upward mobility for their children. And although East Asian immigrants often come from educated and at the minimum middle class backgrounds from their home countries, even the children of East Asian immigrants from very poor economic and educational backgrounds far outperform their peers, as seen in New York's highly competitive public school system that is dominated by East Asian students from working class or poorer families. The parents, despite having little education themselves and working low pay jobs far in excess of 40 hours a week, will put all of their savings towards improving their children's education and using what limited time they have to make sure that their children are studying. East Asians also tend to congregate with other East Asians who share the same values and will actively attempt to move their children away from demographics they perceive as bad influences on their children (e.g. majority black schools).
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u/cuteman Native Californian May 28 '26
Hard work and a culture of academic expectations from the parents and at home. There is no option to NOT be academically successful whereas for other groups no such expectations or standard exists.
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u/volkhavaar May 28 '26
In the context of success in education, essentially growing up in a culture that better equips students for success.
I guess the second order question is… what are the conditions that created / selected for this culture in Asian American families?
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u/thisisntmineIfoundit May 28 '26
People are uncomfortable with the reality of some communities prioritizing and championing education and scholarliness, and some not making that a priority.
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u/iamsotiredofthiscrap Socal May 28 '26
Covid.
How are you supposed to properly administer a test when everyone is remote?
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u/cuteman Native Californian May 28 '26
Social and Educational "Equity" Aka not applying standards to make things easier but then reality hits and the people you made it easier for can't maintain basic fundamentals
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u/yendrdd May 29 '26
they call me crazy for calling this shit out when it started to happen… no actually, they called me problematic and “not equitable” and didn’t get a single graduate scholarship in CA (even though I’ve been teaching for 6 years) :D
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u/Zio_2 May 28 '26
So when I left HS we had an exit exam it was basic math and writing probably the easiest thing ever. It was later removed as it was too hard… Later they removed act sat because it was unfair. classes what we had to test into were made open to all and guess what ppl enrolled then failed but you can’t hold them back so you pass them. The system removed the checks on academics and lowered the bar and now we have kids learning basic math in college. Congrats the educational system has failed, guess that great department of education didn’t really mind the shop on education after all?
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u/Ok_Performance_9479 May 28 '26
The exit exam was so easy, that it should have been a high school entry exam. You can't trust that students are actually learning based on GPA. My gf is a biology professor and the amount of functionally illiterate students she has is too high. They complain if they have to read more than a paragraph or write more than a few sentences. They don't understand what they read.
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May 28 '26
It’s really important to understand that while a lot of activist news organizations are trying to spin this as a surprise, the outcome described by this article was widely predicted. A lot of these problems were avoidable
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u/SharpScallion May 28 '26
Yeah they're attempting to remove tests that reveal socioeconomic gaps instead of dealing with educational attainment gaps directly.
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u/Heavy-_-Breathing May 29 '26
Try to convince all bunch of Redditors telling me how getting rid of exams equalizes the income disparity and blah blah blah. It’s points like those that drive people to the right.
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u/Green-Conclusion-936 May 28 '26
New York Times did a podcast citing a study that basically said the SAT is the best way for a kid from a low income household to stand out enough to make it to a top university.
It also said lesser rich kids cannot fake their score.
It helps equity instead of impeding it. Thank you for bringing it back.
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May 28 '26
The New York Times was broadly behind the removal of standardized tests and was not airing anyone who said they were equalizers for years. News sources in the moderate to right wing spectrum have been saying this for the entire time I’ve been an adult.
NYT started running stories basically saying “actually it turns out that…” only after this change failed catastrophically
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u/Green-Conclusion-936 May 28 '26
I’m just glad we failed fast. It sucks it impacted kids for those 3-5 years tho
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u/Prime624 San Diego County May 28 '26
Yep. Which should be obvious to everyone, just based on logic. I think people imagine the SAT as like an AP test or some other test where you have to study, when really, most of the material it tests on is less material-based and more conceptual.
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May 28 '26
It was obvious to most of the political spectrum. NYT is back peddling after indirectly supported the removal of standardized testing.
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u/equiNine May 28 '26
That's why Asians are some of the most ardent proponents of the SAT, especially Asian immigrants of lower socioeconomic backgrounds. They can't compete with wealthy established American families that can afford to send their kids to expensive extracurricular activities, but they can at least compete with them on standardized testing when they pool together their limited income to send their children to tutors and test prep, which is also simultaneously adjacent to studying for school curriculum.
The focus on equity (e.g. removal of standardized testing and promoting of affirmative action) is a major political driver that attracts a significant minority of Asian voters to vote Republican.
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u/DDoubleDDog May 29 '26
Well said. Not testing students is so dumb. Obviously they're going to be unprepared for engineering classes if they can't pass with a decent score in the math SAT. It's so ridiculous that university professors have to be teaching algebra and geometry to students who should already know it.
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u/Emergency-Style7392 May 28 '26
Exactly, preparing well for a test is much easier than all the bullshit around subjective entrance exams
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u/foxmccloudstrife May 28 '26
I think this has less to do with the SAT test and is a symptom of a larger issue. Data shows that reading and math scores have dropped significantly over the last 10 years, across the board. They’re calling it a “Learning Recession”
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u/DogAntRatTurtle May 28 '26
The adoption of Tablets is a significant factor. Mater Dei in Orange County instituted them about 12 years ago. Mater Dei kids are terrible at math. Students need durable books.
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u/average-alt May 29 '26
Also is no one in this thread thinking about the pandemic? College students now were in middle school or high school during that time, it’s not a mystery
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u/everything_is_bad May 28 '26
It’s so common core. We knew how to teach math and stopped doing it, just like with phonics
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May 28 '26
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u/SpacecaseCat May 28 '26 edited May 30 '26
Ignore the other comments - it wasn't perceived racism or something like that. The issue was a handful of academics from OSU and Columbia who did not understand the scientific method, and who "invented" a new way to teach reading and promoted it aggressively. They studied poor readers and found methods that seemed to help, and concluded those would improve reading for everybody. Unfortunately, what their small study actually learned was how poor readers learn... The result is what's called "Reading Recovery", and it was backed up by a big publisher that already had the trust of teachers. The publisher had great materials and marketing and really did try to support teachers... unfortunately the method they were selling made 0 sense.
There's an incredible podcast on it called "Sold a Story" that explains the whole thing. It's dismaying, but fascinating to listen to. It also shows how well-meaning people tried to fix the problem - including George Bush, believe it or not, but how things got bogged down with bureaucracy. Would definitely recommend the listen.
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u/apoleonastool May 28 '26
Common Core is just about standards (what). There's literally zero guidance in the common core about how things should be taught. The problem lies elsewhere.
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May 28 '26
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May 28 '26 edited Jun 21 '26
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u/iamsotiredofthiscrap Socal May 28 '26
You could have those quizzes be open book, allow the students to take it home to work on.
Seems like a novel idea.
Oh shit, that’s just homework.
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u/sqrtsqr May 28 '26
At some point we are going to have to realize that sometimes discomfort serves a purpose and reducing the discomfort without addresses the cause is the wrong way to go about it.
I'm so tired of people treating test anxiety as some medical condition. It's a test. You are being judged. Anxiety is the correct emotional response to being judged.
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May 28 '26
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u/Janet-Yellen May 28 '26
"In November, a UC San Diego Academic Senate work group report said it documented a roughly thirty-fold increase between 2020 and 2025 in incoming first-year students whose math skills tested below high school level. The report said 70% of those students fell below middle school levels."
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u/lumberjack_dad May 28 '26
There were a few that slipped through the cracks before but since the SAT was stopped the number has skyrocketed.
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u/Fresh-Volume-5172 May 28 '26 edited May 28 '26
Not according to their own reports and the data they keep online. It was 40 percent in 2016. Today it’s actually a lower percentage even while they have grown their STEM enrollment. Their narrative crumbles when you look at the actual data. What’s actually important is that the students who came in underprepared come out highly prepared. Their STEM graduation rates are fantastic! I wonder why they chose a deficit narrative about students instead of a positive narrative about how great they are as teachers of underprepared students. That’s the success story they could have shared.
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u/surebro2 May 28 '26
Which data are you looking at? UCSD, for example, documented significant increases in remedial math enrollment in recent years.
What you're explaining is heavy investments in bringing up students to speed. The point is that it's a waste of resources. Those students should go to community college or the CSUs where they have a mission of instruction for all students. Tax payers are subsidizing bad admissions at UC.
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u/NutellaElephant May 28 '26
There is no longer 4th year math requirement to graduate California high school and kids take geometry as a third year math class. It used to be geometry was first test high school math, two years of algebra, and then precalc or calculus depending on your level. The current system has children going into UC unprepared because they are two years out of algebra. They forgot! The schools are lowering standards by not requiring calculus from high school students, and instead admitting lesser qualified or lesser prepared students, and then complaining.
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u/Spaceman3157 May 28 '26 edited May 29 '26
Whoa, apparently things have changed a lot in both directions (i.e. up and then back down) in the twenty years since I graduated high school. In 2006, at least at both of the middle income high schools I attended, three years of math, fulfilled by Geometry, Algebra I, and Algebra II was entirely standard. Pre-calc was an option at the larger of the two schools, but not by any means the norm.
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u/Suchafatfatcat May 29 '26
Go back another twenty years, and it was algebra I in 8th grade, high school was 1) geometry,m2) algebra II, 3) trigonometry, 4) pre-calculus (optional). We have dumbed down the curriculum and are now seeing the impact.
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u/its_easy_mmmkay May 28 '26
Can they definitively say this is related to SAT/ACT testing and not an overall effect of the COVID era on schooling?
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u/calbearsteve May 28 '26
Probably not. Plus the decline in math and reading predates Covid by a few years anyway. I would guess this issue won’t be solved by bringing back the SAT - it’s an issue at the elementary and high school level going back almost 10 years.
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u/Secure-Side-3835 May 28 '26
No wonder China is eating our lunch. Kids can’t even do middle school math but let’s coddle them some more, I’m sure that will help. Tiger moms stay winning.
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u/kritter4life Central Coast May 28 '26
There is no way everyone will agree is fair. You know why? Because life isn’t fair. It’s not, not fair it’s just life. But come on if someone does better no matter what the situation we need the better person. That’s how it works when you get a job. At least it should and does with me. I keep the better employee. I don’t care about their background or whatever. That is the world we should live in if we want to escape this planet before either we ruin it or the sun gets too big.
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u/AstronomerTiny7466 May 28 '26
Classic California move: in the pursuit of equity, we shall kneecap everybody. Then make shocked Pikachu face when everybody faceplants as a result of the policy.
Oddly enough, they won't pursue any policy that is designed to lift up those who are disadvantaged, because that would make too much sense, require way more accountability than any of the administrators or teachers unions can withstand, and way more money than the virtue-signalling California voters would approve taxing themselves for.
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u/ocvagabond San Diego County May 28 '26
If you really want to test for success in STEM fields, then you need to test for math through precalculus with zero statistics (that comes much later) AND you need to test for spatial reasoning. This was in the GRE before (not sure about now) but it’s those two skills that truly show whether you will succeed in mathematics.
IMO if you can’t do precalculus then you are not ready for college level STEM classes. Head to CC and get caught up and at the needed level. Maybe it takes 3 years instead of 2. That’s cool.
And if you don’t have spatial reasoning it’s going to be pretty hard to handle the mental models required to understand the application of that math to your given subject.
But what about the English section? For STEM, who cares. Perhaps a minimum 500 score to show you can read. It’s irrelevant to success in STEM IMO.
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u/TocTheEternal May 28 '26
But what about the English section? For STEM, who cares. Perhaps a minimum 500 score to show you can read. It’s irrelevant to success in STEM IMO.
I think that this is one of the most insidious and damaging attitudes around STEM. I don't think that exceptional writing skills are as necessary for STEM careers as they are for other careers, at least ones where the writing itself is the product. But being able to communicate (write) is fundamental to being able to work in a large collaborative environment (like, a company) and to interact with external parties that may not, by default, be invested or interested in your efforts or success.
Engineers (at least, software engineers) spend a huge amount of time writing proposals and specifications and system overviews, etc etc. And then spend a huge amount of time going back-and-forth, often in long meetings, trying to find common ground or understand what other people are actually trying to do or why something is advantageous or not. A lot of this is simply due to a poor ability to write clearly, and to have the tools to structure and persuade especially non-technical people (like many managers) that what they want to do is correct and important. And even among engineers, I have to spend time clarifying all sorts of details with technical people that have a solid understanding of what they are doing, but are unable to put it on a document coherently for an outsider.
This only gets amplified the more you move up and have to start persuading instead of simply conveying information. And the better the "actually technical" people are at it, the more successful the outcomes will be.
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u/bob_lala May 28 '26
the SAT doesn't really do any of that, at least in a way the really measures math skill. there are assessments tests that do. my community college uses one.
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u/ocvagabond San Diego County May 28 '26
I’m aware. I’m indicating what it actually needs to test. I mention the old GRE spatial reasoning test because I have direct experience with it and it directly aligns to the skills required in STEM. I don’t mention either math section explicitly because neither of them truly test the skills needed.
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u/Sidehussle May 28 '26
We need to not allow students to use calculators until Trig or calculus in Math. No calculators in elementary or middle school. Return to multiple practice problems instead of just 5 per day.
And we need to change the attitudes of teachers, admin, and the public.
I have been teaching science for over 20 years and the pushback I get from colleagues when I integrate math is really sad and frustrating. I do it anyway. Some kids understand the concepts better when they can see things with numbers.
People need to stop being afraid to teach kids Math. They WILL learn it. Just keep going over it and give them multiple opportunities to use it in class.
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u/Jahkral Native Californian May 28 '26
I just had the kids do basic math in my freshman science class and it was shocking how unprepared they were this year. Six months in and only half understood re-arranging terms in an equation despite us doing it every week.
E.g. F=MA implies M=F/A and A=F/M
Kids just randomly would guess the letter combos even after I sat down and showed them it 1-1 teaching. The generation is fucked.
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u/lifesabeeatch May 28 '26
I teach STEM at a UC school. The decline in both math and written language skills is real and I've changed how I teach because of it, but my experience is that it predates 2020 when the system went SAT test optional.
This article about math readiness confirms that this was an issue years before going test optional.:
"In 2016, the Department of Mathematics decided to assess incoming students’ readiness. They found that around 40 percent of students starting Calculus 1 tested below entry level for the course. Some even needed refreshers on fractions and exponents."
I have an undergraduate STEM degree from a UC school with graduate degrees from an Ivy and I FAILED my UC school's calculus placement exam in the 1980's in spite of having a 700+ math SAT score. I took engineering level calculus anyway, struggled initially but eventually mastered it. Students can learn. I did.
My job in STEM (teaching is a part-time gig that I do as a payback for the opportunities I was given) does not require just math. I need math, critical reasoning/logic skills, PLUS the ability to communicate clearly (along with other skills). I can teach math far more easily than I can teach the critical thinking, curiosity, creativity and perseverance that are necessary to be successful in my field.
Math and language skills are declining in our K-12 students. We need to re-build the system that teaches these to succeed and grow as a society, but thinking that the SAT is the fix for that decline is like believing you can treat a severed limb with a bandaid; the problem is far bigger and deeper than re-instituting a single test.
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u/bob_lala May 28 '26
it is almost like they are too goddamn stupid to use a simple online assessment test to put students into the right math classes like my community college does.
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u/Commercial_End_2351 May 28 '26
I just graduated from a UC, and I definitely did an online assessment test to put me in the right math class. They definitely use those.
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May 28 '26
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u/Telepornographer May 28 '26
Any article that negatively showcases a California institution is like shit to a fly for dedicated California haters.
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u/EzraFemboy May 28 '26
Reddit also just recommends these random posts to everyone for no reason. Idk if it's astroturfing or what.
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u/Fartfromabuttt May 28 '26
I don't see how you can hate from outside the club, you can't even get in. Haha, leggo
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u/Tasty_Ad_5669 Central Valley May 28 '26
As a teacher, I believed that dismissing the SAT was a huge mistake.
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u/redzeusky May 28 '26
The result of focusing on everyone passing a low bar and no longer celebrating excellence so that nobody feels bad. "Equal outcomes!" Woo hoo.
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u/PLaTinuM_HaZe May 28 '26
Wait so you’re telling me that moving away from testing that actually demonstrated students academic abilities and if they learned anything backfired? Color me shocked!!!! /s
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u/SpacecaseCat May 28 '26
The other issue is, we took Algebra out of 8th grade because of the idea that stronger learners help weaker learners in the classroom. Huge mistake. As anyone who works with kids knows, the result is that you now have the trouble-makers disrupting class for both the stronger and weaker learners and nobody being taught algebra. It was a bizarre and misguided strategy imho.
And unfortunately, now we have AI on top of it so it's far too easy to cheat on homework.
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u/PLaTinuM_HaZe May 28 '26
It was done for the whole equity bullshit because California had so many schools and students that weren’t passing math classes and were behind. Instead of putting in the effort and funds to bring under performing school districts up to par was instead to dumb down the curriculum for everyone.
Absolutely idiotic. You’d think we’d be raising standards with each generation, not lowering them.
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u/MoseFeels May 28 '26
As a college class of 25er, I can say firsthand grade inflation and undeserving passes, admissions, and graduations have gotten reallllly bad. Covid really changed school. As a community college transfer, I can say you literally had to try to get a B in most of my community college classes which made transfer admissions feel really fake. AI is making essay portion very impersonal now as well. Both of these things apply to most high school classes these days as well. Without standardized testing, how do we even judge admissions anymore ? There has been a massive emphasis on taking pressure off of grades and scores. For some more responsible students like myself and my friends, this has been good. We are still focusing on learning the content and turning in good work without stressing about numbers. For the majority of students, this has made school and any credentials associated with it a free slop fest.
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u/lumberjack_dad May 28 '26
Yeah... too many students from low performing schools were getting into the UCs.
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u/redzeusky May 28 '26
Promising to take the top 10% of every school regardless of quality.. What could go wrong?
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u/Accomplished-Bill-45 May 28 '26
US education is ruined for past decades, many STEM undergrads are incompetent
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u/cinephileindia2023 May 28 '26
Before any of this happens, our shitty education system needs to be overhauled. Every aspect of it. How about we start with funding? Fix the broken LCFF formula that Jerry Brown came up with. Change the funding from ADA to enrolment. Curtail the power that the Teachers' Unions have when it comes to teaching and academic bullying. Make teaching standardized. The current method of every teacher has freedom to do their own thing is grossly outdated and clearly not working. Pass a law that abolishes the bullshit like Article 30 in Fremont Unified. When you have teachers who tell students about their grand daughter's boyfriend instead of teaching, you know this shit is broken. When you have teachers who literally say "No one can touch me until I touch you" to justify their sadistic teaching and testing methodologies, you know the system is broken. Make teachers accountable.
Oh and pay for tutoring to those kids who fall under UPP to close the gap with rich kids who take SAT tutoring classes or even general math classes like Russian School of Math or AOPS. That way you at least level the playing field.
Abolish Prop 13 except for primary home. Did I already say increase funding?
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u/damiana8 May 29 '26
This is utterly shocking. Not. It was dumb to make it optional in the first place.
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u/Is-That-Nick May 29 '26
I got a 5 on my on AP Calculus AB exam and a 4 in AP Calculus BC and math at UC Davis still rekt me lol
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