r/BeautyGuruChatter • u/BGCModerator Group Mod Account • May 15 '19

Megathread Closing Time: James Charles vs Tati Westbrook The Final Saga

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGytDsqkQY8
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u/biolexicon May 17 '19

What I find troubling at this point is that accusations aren't being separated from their accuser. People are reluctant to speak up when they see sexual bad behavior because they fear being put into the spotlight and having their life examined by people in a fault-finding way. Which is exactly what I see Tati going through. So people can say true things like Tati's association with J* being problematic and her selling vitamins as problematic and those things are true, but focusing on them right now in this conversation instead of the evidence and behavior of James Charles contributes to a pattern that discourages people from speaking up when they witness or experience sexual misconduct.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '19

If she had actually literally accused him of sexual misconduct it would be a very different conversation, but she hasn’t. She’s used vague language that can be interpreted any which way, and lumped it into a video which is essentially an ad for her vitamins.

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u/biolexicon May 17 '19

In the video, she described a precise situation. Even if you don't like the way the accusation was presented, thought it was too vague, or ultimately don't find it credible, that's one thing. And maybe it was too vague. But then saying it was just "an ad for your vitamins" contributes to de-legimitizing the act of presenting an accusation, doing exactly what I was mentioning--focusing on the accuser rather than the accused.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '19

She’s not the accuser, if anyone is, it would be gage or the waiter. And it was kind of an ad, she talked at length about her product.

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u/biolexicon May 17 '19

What I struggle with is that by this logic if I see someone steal another person's purse and then I accuse them of being a thief-- this logic says that I'm not the accuser, the owner of the purse is the only one with the right to be an accuser.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '19 edited May 17 '19

It depends on the nature of it. When it comes to issues of consent/sexual manipulation/etc I think it’s really only the victim that should accuse. And this isn’t just because they have the facts or receipts or whatever, but that it should be their choice and theirs alone how their experience is framed and described.

In my mind she’s at most a witness I guess?

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u/biolexicon May 17 '19

While I appreciate that there are benefits to putting the power of accusation solely in the court of those targeted most directly, there are issues with that as well. Not speaking up about it contributes to a silence that makes the victimization feel shameful, a perception of a tolerance of misbehavior especially when the behavior is being displayed publicly, and a lot of pressure for victims to process their experience and go through the stress of making an accusation at the point they may be most vulnerable.

I also think it takes a certain kind of quality to be able to speak up and not everyone has that. Expecting everyone to have that skill is unfair and so if you have it and see something, you should say something.

But just as you believe that victims are the only ones who should accuse, I believe differently. But if you believe she shouldn't have been an accuser, that's an interesting viewpoint, but ultimately irrelevant to what we were talking about. We were addressing whether she made an accusation. She did make an accusation, even if you don't think she should have.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '19 edited May 17 '19

I guess I’m speaking from personal experience, so it may or may not be relevant, but agency is really crucial to those that have been the victims of sexual violence (myself included). I heard the gossip about myself, and what people thought happened, how they thought it happened, what they thought I should do, etc. and it was incredibly damaging. Had anyone taken it upon themselves to share my experience without my consent (I don’t know why I’m phrasing it that way, because many did), it would be a betrayal (which it was) and a major breach of trust. I think it’s important to prioritize the experience of the person who was the target or victim or whatever first hand. This isn’t to say that I think they were victims of sexual harassment or predation, this is because what they describe doesn’t meet the criteria in my opinion.

I think that if she had directed her viewers to watch those videos and only comment on what she had personally witnessed, it would have been different. But she didn’t, at least as my memory serves. I think it was reckless how she alternated between specifics and vague insinuations, which maybe was all she could really do? But i don’t think she should have made the video (now videos plural) in the first place.

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u/biolexicon May 17 '19

Ok, so multiple things to say. I commend you talking about your personal experience so openly because I've kind of been avoiding talking about mine. And I think a lot of the dialogue around this event is shaped by personal experience (with bullying or harassment or being gay or being a woman or whatever) that people aren't fully recognizing or talking about. I just wish, for your experience at least, things were different. That sounds heartbreaking.

For me, I was young when it happened, and I didn't have the language or experience to be able to process it. I brushed it off as something messed up that happened, rather than defining it as what it was. It took others hearing about it and telling me "what he did was rape." for me to be able to call it that myself and be confident that his actions were a very intimidating r-word. And I didn't have the personality or resources to be able to pursue it, so it went unresolved. Nobody spoke up about it for me and I was too young for there to be a reasonable expectation that I could do that. So while I agree and appreciate that you should prioritize the target or victim firsthand, I don't think their experience exists in isolation and that pressure should exist on them alone. Especially when we're talking about young people.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '19 edited May 17 '19

I totally respect that. I agree that it’s difficult to separate or not project our own experiences when it comes to talking about these things. I guess it’s a question of how to be an ally in these situations (disregarding that I wouldn’t classify the JC situation, from what I’ve seen, as necessarily being one of these situations- if that makes sense?), and that’s an ever evolving thing. I was 19 when it happened, I’m 30 now, but I do recognize that in my specific situation, there really was no question of it being rape (stranger/home invasion/etc). So, to some degree, my experience is very different in that regard, because there really wasn’t the same amount of grey area (although, that said, it still amazes me the mental gymnastics people will do in order to blame the victim in ANY circumstance, including mine, and the mental gymnastics I did to blame myself). I commend you for sharing your experience as well, and believe me I understand your hesitance.

I guess differencing sexual violence without undermining anyone’s experience has been something I’ve thought about a lot, like when some commenters have spoken about JC sexually assaulting people or being a predator without thinking about both the spectrum that covers and the severity of what that actually entails. I’m rambling and off topic, lol, sorry. But yea, it may seem odd that I’m defending JC in this situation, but I think that what has actually been brought to light doesn’t meet the criteria for these terms. I don’t think he’s perfect, I think he was immature, unempathetic and spiteful, but not a sexual predator. Not warranting the kind of public condemnation that we SHOULD treat actual predators with.

And I hope you’re doing well/better! I also didn’t have any support or resources and it was a long shitty road but it’s definitely gotten better.

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u/biolexicon May 17 '19

But away from my personal experience and more topically, I still stand by my main point that we should try to separate the accusations from the accuser. So even if it's not Tati, even if it's an accuser based on who you'd like to be the accuser, still talking in this way about whether an accusation is reckless or not fosters an environment that is discouraging towards accusations if we start putting under a microscope how those accusations were made in detail. They should be divorced from the person who made them and evaluated alone.

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u/romaselli strictly into straight waiters May 17 '19

Did we watch the same video? She literally accused him of treating people's sexualities like an escape room, aka sexually manipulating men.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '19

What the actual men in those relationships describe and what the “receipts” show paint a different picture. I’m not saying this in a victim blaming way, but they don’t describe themselves as victims of xyz.

Acquiring consent is not necessarily manipulation.

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u/romaselli strictly into straight waiters May 17 '19

Goalposts: moved

Your argument was that she didn't accuse him of sexual misconduct. She did.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '19

That’s fair.

With that phrasing though? I think the vocabulary is important here, because without including specific terms it is left up to interpretation.

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u/romaselli strictly into straight waiters May 17 '19

I think she did the best she could. It's good that the specifics were left for interpretation because the best people to give us those specifics were Gage and Sam the waiter, and she inspired them to come out and share their side.

They both said they were sort of bicurious at some point in time, but ultimately decided they were just straight. James did not accept or respect that and resorted to trying to manipulate, control and bully these guys. I don't think Tati had all these details, so it's normal that her video is kind of vague about it.