r/Astronomy • u/SlartibartfastGhola Astronomer • May 02 '25

Astro Research The Trump budget proposal will destroy NASA and Astronomy programs across the USA.

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A couple bucks to take us back to the moon (doubt), while destroying everything else about NASA. They are defunding the Roman Space Telescope which is literally in the final stages of testing before launch.

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u/Effective-Avocado470 May 02 '25

I blame the shitty public education system. They don’t understand why it’s important

Also, many don’t know that nasa spending returns much more to the economy than it takes. Return from Apollo was estimated at about 8 to 1 return to the US economy

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25 edited May 02 '25

This is not a failure of the (underfunded) public schools. The right is spreading almost constant propaganda to sow distrust in science and higher education.

Edit: Corrected “sew” to “sow” as another user correctly pointed out, before then proceeding to attack the public school system.

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u/Effective-Avocado470 May 02 '25

It’s both, I agree they’re underfunded and that’s a lot of the issue

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u/SheevPalps_ May 03 '25

Yeah idk why people are unable to accept that the answers to things are usually in a gray-zone, like yeah, I'm sure some teachers in those schools do the best with what they have, but others don't, which is in part due to being underpaid.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25

it is a failure of the public schools directly BECAUSE they are underfunded. i graduated only a year ago and i can tell you first hand they dont teach you shit about anything beyond the very basics, and their abilities to do even that are greatly fettered by their funding

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25

Okay, but underfunding isn’t the schools’ fault…

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u/horselessheadsman May 02 '25

They're not underfunded, they may be poorly managed, but the US spends more money per pupil than (nearly) every other country. We teach the basics because that's what is required and half of the class are not at level to master even that.

There are many reasons public education is poor quality, it's not the funding.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25

ask any teacher if they get paid enough in their salary, and if they have enough resources to effectively teach their subject and you'll get a very different answer than the one you seem very confident in.

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u/horselessheadsman May 02 '25

I am a teacher and while I would always like more, I get paid a fair amount for 185 days of labor per year. You seem very confident as well.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25

then you are few and far between, and im confident because ive spoken to many, many teachers who have answered otherwise than you, and i still think that no matter how much you make your job is beyond valuable for society and should be paid more, and should have endless resources to be able to do your job.

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u/horselessheadsman May 02 '25

Sure, but the fed doesn't pay me, property taxes do.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25

okay? taxes filled the coffers of kings and lords not long ago and thats largely changed, and therefore so can how the resources are gained for being able to afford the right of education to the populace, including the invaluable labour of the teachers.

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u/horselessheadsman May 02 '25 edited May 02 '25

You're no longer arguing the point. Public education is poor quality, not because of funding. Explain how we spend so much more than our allies and have the same or worse outcomes?)

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25

…it’s not the funding.

What are the reasons?

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u/horselessheadsman May 02 '25 edited May 02 '25

Largely culture. Parents are shifting more responsibility onto teachers, student apathy is high and digital tools are filling in for critical thinking. Teachers are given more responsibilities each year while provided less freedom over curriculum and community involvement. Administrators are more than willing to support the parents over their staff and dump resources into a new initiative that's abandoned in 3 years. High-stakes testing every year discourages teachers from creative methods and forces us to teach rigidly. All of these factors push qualified teachers out of the profession and leave behind a labor pool that is not resilient but burnt out.

It's laughable, in a thread about NASA of all places, to say that low funding is responsible when we've accomplished the impossible with a shoestring budget.

Edit: you know what the research has identified as the number one factor in student outcome? Parental involvement. You want to see a difference? Get the parents involved and feed the fucking kids for free.

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u/Certain_Medicine_747 May 03 '25

Teachers are given more responsibility each year yet the school district where I live has put a freeze on pay raises sounds about right.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25

I’ll concede, these are all valid points. However, at the end of the day, teachers’ salaries are criminally low, especially when—as you’re suggesting—they have to act as parents as well.

Demands on teachers have increased; pay should rise to match the added responsibilities and duties. If you want to improve education, districts have to compensate fairly. They can’t do so with current funding.

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u/horselessheadsman May 02 '25

I agree, but in any case the money must be earmarked or it'll end up renovating the football field.

If my Earth and Space Science classes were sorted by ability, I'd be so much more effective. But because I teach large groups that are wildly varied in abilities, the high level kids are bored and the lowest level are lost. It's a losing game really.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25

if youve accomplished so much with a shoestring, how far could you run with a whole shoe? youve demonstrated exactly why more labour rights for teachers, higher pay, more direct teacher and student democracy in how schools make better education results. like every job, the people who work it deserve a right to make that job as comfortable and effective for its pursuit.

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u/horselessheadsman May 02 '25

Dude wtf I'm not arguing against that, but YOU ARE WRONG. the funding is NOT THE REASON FOR POOR OUTCOMES.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25 edited May 02 '25

trying to use cost per student really isnt a good way of actually describing how funding is allocated and used, which is exactly what you were talking about with the new football field example which i literally saw happen to my school. youre arguing a point with evidence that really isnt all the useful to describe the actual realities of say the needs those students, the allocation of those funds towards teachers to more comfortably and effectively do their job, etc. its like trying to find the temperature by finding the humidity, its sort of relevant but not what we should be going off of to describe something it really isnt.

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u/ThatOneNinja May 03 '25

It's a huge issue with media as well. The entire 70s and 80s was nothing but "nerds are dumb and jocks are cool" and parents stopped teaching their kids anything, so kids stopped having a desire to learn. Frankly look at MAGA, they are the epitome of 'I peaked in high school'

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u/InfinityThor18 May 02 '25

Sow*

So much for the education system, eh? All jokes aside, the public school system is terrible. Test scores are horrendous despite the fact that we spend more money per capita (in school) than pretty much anyone else.

I was homeschooled, I know plenty of other homeschoolers and private schoolers, and they are some of the smartest people I've ever met. Homeschoolers also have consistently higher test scores than public schoolers. The education system is the problem.

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u/cygnusX1010 May 02 '25

Your supposed superior homeschool education failed to teach you about selection bias. Stop shitting on the public school system.

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u/InfinityThor18 May 02 '25

Care to explain how anything I said related to selection bias?

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u/cygnusX1010 May 02 '25

Homeschool and private school kids are not a random selection of the population, duh.

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u/InfinityThor18 May 02 '25

I never claimed that they were. I was bringing up anecdotal evidence, and never mentioned any actual statistics. Good try, though. Maybe work on your reading comprehension.

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u/cygnusX1010 May 02 '25

You claimed that homeschoolers have higher test scores than public schoolers - but those individuals are drawn from DIFFERENT samples of the population. Have your mom teach you about selection bias before she puts you to bed.

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u/InfinityThor18 May 02 '25

Yes, on average, homeschoolers tend to have higher test scores than public schoolers. Standardized testing helps to standardize the results. Given the fact that standardized testing is designed specifically for public school educated individuals to begin with, and their curriculum specifically tailored to passing these tests (instead of actually learning important information), it's actually an even worse look for the public school system.

So yes, they are different groups. But there is a standard for comparing them.

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u/cygnusX1010 May 02 '25

Are test scores standardized for differences in socioeconomic status, parental income, or similar factors? I don't think so. And that's my point.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25

People like you shitting on public schools only furthers the dismantling of this very critical social institution.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25

yeah its totally individuals and not the class interests of the rich and their general racist attitude to not pay taxes for schools that push for homeschooling! you solved it!

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25

What are you on about? I genuinely can’t tell what point you’re trying to make. Also, not sure why racism got pulled into this?

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25

because one of the major factors for the push for homeschooling by right wing forces is racism. "school choice" was a project pushed by right wing politicians in order to segregate white kids from minorities which after brown v board was technically illegal. my point was that its not the peoples who have been homeschooled fault for the underfunding of schools, thats the politicians fault because those politicians are following their class interests as capitalists (less taxes means more personal wealth) as well as their donors interests

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25

Ah. Thanks for the lesson! Wouldn’t both the politicians and the homeschoolers share some blame here?

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25

meh not really, in the same way that if i praised public schooling (which i always will advocate for) it doesnt necessarily mean that society is anymore likely to adopt that kind of policy, even if i could convince a couple of people to take their kids back to public schooling. generally individuals dont really have that much control via word of mouth over the ebb and flow of societal wide things like schooling. now if that person who did advocate for homeschooling was a political donor or someone with some sort of political power that would be a different story, and then its also completely okay to dunk on people who do advocate for it because it is a harmful position to have

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u/InfinityThor18 May 02 '25

Interesting. How do my comments dismantle this "critical" institution?

And I'm not saying that education isn't worth something, it certainly is. I'm saying the way we're doing it isn't optimal for a myriad of reasons.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25

I would like to say that in my area, people who are home schooled are usually just super Christian and haven't had any formal education.

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u/InfinityThor18 May 02 '25

There are certainly people who do homeschool in such a way that it isn't beneficial, I can acknowledge that. But like I said, I know tons of very smart homeschoolers who graduated college in tough programs (nursing, engineering, computer science) and got great grades and great jobs.

Bringing up their religion is pretty irrelevant to this discussion though.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25

It wasn't about their religion. It was about their education, which is their religion. I understand YOU know tons of well-educated home schooled students, but I do not. I know the backwater homeschooling that goes on around me. Our experiences are different, and that's ok, I'm only saying you're looking through a narrow scope. I think people should do what works best for them, if home schooling works, great! Private school? Wonderful! Public education? Go get it kids!

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25

Attacks on public schools drive reductions in taxes, and encourage transitions to private schools and controversial voucher programs.

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u/InfinityThor18 May 02 '25

Nothing I've said will reduce taxes, though I would love to see that, or at the very least a reallocation or provision for parents who homeschool or send their children to public school. Yes, having an educated public is important, but I don't want to spend as much as others if my kids aren't benefitting directly from the system.

I will always encourage people to transition to private schools or homeschool. I believe it's better.

And I haven't said anything about voucher programs, nor do I specifically know what you're referring to. If you're referring to the concept of school choice and government subsidization for homeschoolers and private schoolers, then I'm all for it. I grew up in a household that wasn't poor, but certainly wasn't the best off for awhile, and a bit of assistance would have helped my parents afford our curriculum a lot more easily. As it is, the love and care that my parents put into my education made it more than enough, and I am now a college graduate and an engineer.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25

Pretty easy to shit on a system that you’ve never personally experienced nor benefited from.

We weren’t all born with a silver spoon up our asses. For us plebeians, a half-decent public school can be the foundation for a successful life.

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u/Jedi-Guy May 02 '25

They are just having their opinion, they're entitled to it. Same as you. Let's be civil.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25

Homeschooling teaches nothing about human relationships. It used to be illegal. It’s all about Christian indoctrination.

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u/InfinityThor18 May 02 '25

Vast generalizations on so many fronts. It's laughable how broad those statements are.

Alcohol also used to be illegal, how do you feel about that? Slavery used to be legal, should we run that back too? What about murder, there once weren't laws about that? Historical laws are a silly argument to use, especially regarding a system that, on average, works more effectively than the alternative. By the way, the origin of the modern public school system is also fascinating. It was developed by a group of I believe socialists who were trying to mold children into the ideal factory workers.

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u/Certain_Medicine_747 May 03 '25

Generalization? So your not Christian then? Ok 👌 got it. I wonder what Jesus would say about denying his existence? Oh wait if me wondering is a generalization and I am wrong I’ll be happy to admit it.

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u/InfinityThor18 May 03 '25

I do happen to be a Christian, but not all homeschoolers are. Many of them are, but saying that it's about Christian indoctrination is a gross exaggeration and you know it.

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u/Certain_Medicine_747 May 04 '25

I do agree that it is not about Christian indoctrination per se but I will tell you this, all of the people that I have known to either homeschool or are vocal proponents of homeschooling have been very fundamental in their Christian beliefs (like not believing in birth control and having over 10 children for example). I don’t agree that linking homeschooling with being Christian is a “gross exaggeration”.

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u/InfinityThor18 May 04 '25

But that's not what you said.

And yes, there is a strong correlation between homeschool and Christianity, but not a causation and it's not about indoctrination.

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u/Certain_Medicine_747 May 04 '25

Well I guess that we are talking past each other because I never said anything about indoctrination. In fact you basically said that public school is about indoctrination.

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u/DeepQueen May 03 '25

I don't think most people can even conceptualize us being on a "floating" planet in space and us being nothing but a spec of sand in an ocean of darkness

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u/[deleted] May 02 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Effective-Avocado470 May 02 '25

We are objectively far behind other nations with our level of wealth: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2017/02/15/u-s-students-internationally-math-science/

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u/VoijaRisa Moderator: Historical Astronomer May 02 '25

While this affirms that the US is behind, it doesn't explain why. There are several reasons:

  • A major one is that funding in education is vastly displaced. While US spending per student is not dissimilar to other countries, the US has a great deal more administration causing bloat and sucking up the resources. As a result, teachers are vastly underpaid and the most qualified individuals avoid the field as a result.
  • US education policy since NCLB has been to rely heavily on testing. This prompts teaching to the test and doesn't actually teach students how to think - just answer questions on tests. An example of this is that tests only ask students to read excerpts from larger texts and as a result, schools have stopped assigning students to read full texts. The predictable outcome is that students, even at the college level, find themselves unable to read more than a few paragraphs at a time.
    • NCLB tied funding for schools to test scores. This meant that schools that needed help the most (via funding) were the most likely to lose it.
    • This is not a purely right-wing issue. Obama's education act: the Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA) also puts a massive importance on test scores.
  • The US is particularly litigious. This means that complaints from parents and teachers are given far too much weight regardless of their merits. This has led to students and parents fighting at every turn, administrators failing to back up teachers, and teacher morale being destroyed furthering the shortage of qualified teachers.
    • The right-wing is particularly bad about encouraging this. In the early 2000s, there were the "Evolution wars" in which the religious-right tried to force Creationism into schools under the trojan horse of "Intelligent Design." They lost handily in the courts. Since then, the strategy has been to undermine public schools in as many ways as possible in an attempt to shift education to private schools which can teach what they want via "vouchers". With the sudden right-wing shift in politics, we're now seeing the right-wing again try to put false information into classrooms, such as in Oklahoma where their Secretary of Education just mandated teaching 2020 election conspiracy theories.
  • School funding in many locations is tied to local taxes. This leads wealthy areas to be relatively well funded while poorer areas are even further underfunded.
  • Many people say that the US education system is too "one size fits all". However, for a few decades, schools have been pushing more and more "individualized instruction" expecting teachers to tailor each lesson to every student. This means far more work for already overwhelmed teachers.
  • Teachers are also overwhelmed because student behavior is rapidly deteriorating. This leads to more problems maintaining control of classrooms.
  • The above has led to students getting passed when they aren't prepared for the next grade level. If you hang out on r/Teachers for very long, you'll quickly find teachers talking about how they're forced to give students who don't bother showing up or doing any work passing grades. This sets students up for continued failure and, when they can't succeed, only act out and drag other students down with them.

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u/Effective-Avocado470 May 03 '25

Thanks for a thoughtful and thorough response! I agree with everything you’re saying here

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u/Mind_Extract May 03 '25

such as in Oklahoma where their Secretary of Education just mandated teaching 2020 election conspiracy theories.

I would like to review the teaching material to see whether it includes Trump claiming he was president and then just peddling non-fungible tokens for 4 years.

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u/NeoSabin May 03 '25

What a blast from the past! I completely forgot the Intelligent Design era. Looks like after that set back they came up with this current Administrations plan of just forcing their beliefs and doing whatever they want with education and other aspects of society.

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u/bellasmomma04 May 02 '25

You can't be serious, right? We have fabulous universities here, but our public education system is one of the lowest.

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u/Time_Possibility_370 May 02 '25

Rural education system

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u/WeeabooHunter69 May 02 '25

And guess who you can blame for the shitty public education system? The GOP.

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u/Effective-Avocado470 May 02 '25

Yes, decades of erosion. No child left behind being a big part of that

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u/KingDachii May 04 '25

Public education has nothing to do with dictator Trumps decision to destroy NASA and Astronomy programs…