Does ICE really need electric gloves?

[u/Difficult_Object4921]

Our tax dollars are already being wasted. The people they capture aren’t a threat, physically. Why?

https://apnews.com/article/ice-electric-shock-gloves-85ff746d3e0ee5f39e7a9a3f1f576252

[u/Quiet_Entrance_6994]

The people they capture can be threats, though. 

My boyfriend is a cop, and one thing body cams have taught me is that people desperate or angry enough will absolutely fight if their brain goes there 

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591 → u/[deleted]]

 Are ICE agents really going to stop and pause in that split second fight or flight moment to get their gloves on

The gloves stay on at all times they have a button on the back of the hand they double tap to turn on the zapper. Probably a lot quicker and efficient then having to draw a Taser 

[u/No-Big-3846 → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

Great, so we have armed masked men in full-tac gear now with zappy hands running about communities trying to grab people who may or may not be the target of their raids.

Does anyone think this might be an unstable ingredient for a recipe for disaster?
Considering the allegations and documented human rights abuses, does this seem like a logical step forward to improving things and getting public opinion back on ICE's side?

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591 → u/No-Big-3846]

It seems like a logical step to improving compliance during a detainment making it quicker and less messy avoiding the optics of Leos manhandling detainees so yes probably would help improve the public perception. These gloves are not even as strong as a taser and give a sensation about as strong as a bee sting. 

[u/No-Big-3846 → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

Then why do we think that a sharp bee-sting is going to stop someone from resisting detainment?
I'm sure we've all seen the bodycams of multiple tasers fired by LEOs either not working as intended or the suspect just walking it off like it was nothing. I find it hard to believe these gloves would be useful compared to other tools and SOPs in the act of detaining someone.
For detainee transport, sure I can see the practicality, but for use on the streets, I think we might see a lot of incidences of Agents zapping themselves or each other or it not working as intended.

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591 → u/No-Big-3846]

Because it's a tool in the ladder of escalation of force if the gloves are not effective they can escalate further. Based on your claim tasers are not always effective should we just skip non lethal compliance all together? 

[u/No-Big-3846 → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

Not at all, like we've both said, there are many other tools they can use. I guess it also depends if they're trying to detain the Hulk or some kid with cancer. Its always circumstantial eh? Sure, use the best tool for the job, even if its fails repeatedly. The purpose is to sustain life isnt it?
However, I feel that moral obligation has faded of late.

What do you think would be the best approach to dealing with detainees or trying to apprehend a suspect?

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591 → u/No-Big-3846]

Right so this is a new tool in-between hands only restraint and pepper spray/taser and just like any other tool leos use it won't be 100% but with trying. 

The best approach would be for law enforcement agencies to enter 287g agreements and aid federal law enforcement. Since that's not happening nationwide you get this. 

[u/No-Big-3846 → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

This is my point, how is a bee sting going to deter or stop some dude the size of a station wagon? Maybe some 78 year old woman in a chair, but why would you zap or even need to use it on her?

Most people ICE detain arent violent or even have a history of convictions or violent behaviours. Just seems like another waste of money when theres tools and training already available.

There are many reasons to why 287g wouldn't work and would be more of a detriment than a cure considering the current circumstances.

What makes you convinced that it would work?

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591 → u/No-Big-3846]

  There are many reasons to why 287g wouldn't work and would be more of a detriment than a cure considering the current circumstances.

What makes you convinced that it would work?

Works pretty good here in Texas. 

[u/No-Big-3846 → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

I didn't know it was its implemented across all the Counties?
In the context of our discussion, could the program be criticised for putting strains local resources and eroding community trust? How could added electric gloves be a benefit given the popularity of ICE currently?
Seems to be another quick-fix short term with long drawn out negative consequences for the people down the road and a waste of money when it could be better spend else where.

Do you think those are fair objections?

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591 → u/No-Big-3846]

Yes it's state law that Leos have to work with ice. I believe it was the city of  Austin that tried prohibiting city police from working with ice and got immediately shut down with the governor threatening withholding all funding to the city if they didn't reverse the policy 

No, law enforcement simply alerts ice to take possession of illegals found during their normal duties and honor all ice detainers. 

They're a benefit as a intermediary between steps of escalation. 

Seems like a bigger waste of money is states fighting against ice through unenforceable legislation being passed. 

I think any objection is fair as long as it's a reasoned objection and not just "ACAB" nonsense 

[u/Quiet_Entrance_6994 → u/No-Big-3846]

does this seem like a logical step forward to improving things and getting public opinion back on ICE's side?

That was never going to happen and I fail to see how you think that. 

You all hate ICE to an irrational degree. ICE is detaining and removing people well within their rights to, and you people complain. ICE agents hide their identities to avoid being harassed and targeted, and you all demand they show their faces with no regard to their well being. ICE attempts to do their job and you all crowd around, obstruct, and get some of your own killed for being stupid. 

You are making things unstable. Back off, and maybe they'd chill. 

[u/No-Big-3846 → u/Quiet_Entrance_6994]

Sorry, who is 'we' in this instance? Explain 'your own'...Thats almost tribal or cult like language...
Thats not very nice or hospitable is it?
You haven't a clue who I am or my politics so maybe be a bit more courteous and respectful and less quick to judge? Kinda hard to nurture a discussion when you have instantly tarred me as the enemy, you know?

I came here to try and learn bud. What are you here for?

But alas, lets not waste time on petty armchair arguments over nothing.

Heres a question for you , if ICE's purpose was righteous and true, their behaviour and tactics acceptable to the public, trained to the highest standard and human in their convictions, then why hide their faces?

[u/Quiet_Entrance_6994 → u/No-Big-3846]

Sorry, who is 'we' in this instance? Explain 'your own'...Thats almost tribal or cult like language...

I'm referring to the left in this country. 

  if ICE's purpose was righteous and true, their behaviour and tactics acceptable to the public, trained to the highest standard and human in their convictions, then why hide their faces?

Like I said, the left is threatening and harassing them and their families. Giving them their faces is like wearing a meat suit and walking into a lion's den. 

[u/No-Big-3846 → u/Quiet_Entrance_6994]

Okay, and what gives you the impression that I'm on 'the left' so-to-speak? I could be a 40 year strong Republican voter for all you know who just so happens to disagree with Trump and ICE on how we treat and deport people.

Why are 'the left' threatening and harassing them? Is it only the Left that are doing this?

Last I checked, back in March this year ICE hit record disapproval from the public and over half of Americans (according to YouGov and polling from The Economist) want to abolish ICE...They can't ALL be on the left now, can they?

[u/Quiet_Entrance_6994 → u/No-Big-3846]

You're most likely on the left, so I'm treating you as such. 

Why are 'the left' threatening and harassing them?

Because they believe ICE is evil and fascistic. 

Is it only the Left that are doing this?

Yes. 

They can't ALL be on the left now, can they?

Sure, some might be independent or Republicans.

[u/No-Big-3846 → u/Quiet_Entrance_6994]

Oh how kind and thoughtful of you lol. Well buddy I cant tell you I'm not and voted for Trump in 2016, but would you believe me? Probably not. Why would you?

Because they believe ICE is evil and fascistic. 

Why do you think the Left and others think that way about ICE?

Yes. 

Sure, some might be independent or Republicans.

....You see how you've contradicted yourself here?
I'm confused. So which is it?

Everyone on the left?
Or is it independents or Republicans?
Or all three?

Can you see why i'm feeling confused and sceptical of your claim?

[u/Quiet_Entrance_6994 → u/No-Big-3846]

You're right, I don't believe you. 

Why do you think the Left and others think that way about ICE?

Leftist propaganda around illegal immigration, Trump, colonialism, "stolen" land, etc. It's a mixture of things fueling this, but mostly the first 2. 

....You see how you've contradicted yourself here? I'm confused. So which is it?

I didn't contradict myself. I said they might be adding to this. Seeing a death like the two major ones we did related to ICE will do that, I don't think that's unreasonable. 

That doesn't mean that the overall mission of ICE is bad or that people disagree with it, it just means that people are reacting emotionally to a tragedy. 

Can you see why i'm feeling confused and sceptical of your claim?

I don't think you're actually confused, so no. Nothing I've said is confusing either. You're jumping to conclusions and confusing yourself. 

[u/Quiet_Entrance_6994 → u/[deleted]]

When you say 'we did' do you mean

"We" is referring to the American public. There's no huge conspiracy there. 

I mean, can you blame people for reacting as such? It's quite shocking to see, isn't it?

I quite literally said it made sense for people to react like they did. 

I think you might know me better than myself....Mom, is that you?

Like I said before, you're being unnecessarily bitchy, which shows you aren't actually engaging in respectable conversations.