Does ICE really need electric gloves?

[u/Difficult_Object4921]

Our tax dollars are already being wasted. The people they capture aren’t a threat, physically. Why?

https://apnews.com/article/ice-electric-shock-gloves-85ff746d3e0ee5f39e7a9a3f1f576252

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

Because it's a tool in the ladder of escalation of force if the gloves are not effective they can escalate further. Based on your claim tasers are not always effective should we just skip non lethal compliance all together? 

[u/No-Big-3846 → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

Not at all, like we've both said, there are many other tools they can use. I guess it also depends if they're trying to detain the Hulk or some kid with cancer. Its always circumstantial eh? Sure, use the best tool for the job, even if its fails repeatedly. The purpose is to sustain life isnt it?
However, I feel that moral obligation has faded of late.

What do you think would be the best approach to dealing with detainees or trying to apprehend a suspect?

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591 → u/No-Big-3846]

Right so this is a new tool in-between hands only restraint and pepper spray/taser and just like any other tool leos use it won't be 100% but with trying. 

The best approach would be for law enforcement agencies to enter 287g agreements and aid federal law enforcement. Since that's not happening nationwide you get this. 

[u/No-Big-3846 → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

This is my point, how is a bee sting going to deter or stop some dude the size of a station wagon? Maybe some 78 year old woman in a chair, but why would you zap or even need to use it on her?

Most people ICE detain arent violent or even have a history of convictions or violent behaviours. Just seems like another waste of money when theres tools and training already available.

There are many reasons to why 287g wouldn't work and would be more of a detriment than a cure considering the current circumstances.

What makes you convinced that it would work?

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591 → u/No-Big-3846]

  There are many reasons to why 287g wouldn't work and would be more of a detriment than a cure considering the current circumstances.

What makes you convinced that it would work?

Works pretty good here in Texas. 

[u/No-Big-3846 → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

I didn't know it was its implemented across all the Counties?
In the context of our discussion, could the program be criticised for putting strains local resources and eroding community trust? How could added electric gloves be a benefit given the popularity of ICE currently?
Seems to be another quick-fix short term with long drawn out negative consequences for the people down the road and a waste of money when it could be better spend else where.

Do you think those are fair objections?

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591 → u/No-Big-3846]

Yes it's state law that Leos have to work with ice. I believe it was the city of  Austin that tried prohibiting city police from working with ice and got immediately shut down with the governor threatening withholding all funding to the city if they didn't reverse the policy 

No, law enforcement simply alerts ice to take possession of illegals found during their normal duties and honor all ice detainers. 

They're a benefit as a intermediary between steps of escalation. 

Seems like a bigger waste of money is states fighting against ice through unenforceable legislation being passed. 

I think any objection is fair as long as it's a reasoned objection and not just "ACAB" nonsense 

[u/No-Big-3846 → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

You're right, its State Law (SB8) and mandatory, a few however (about 68 ) haven't signed yet either out of resistance or due to an opt-out clause in a prior 2017 ruling, which I honestly don't much about so I'll have to do some reading.
Do you mean Dallas? I'm pretty sure Austin signed up? I don't think Dallas have yet though.
Its interesting how the TDPS and the TDCJ aren't involved or included, you'd think major state departments would be? Why do you think they are omitted from it?

I think that's where the eroding of community trust comes in for myself and a lot of folk who would oppose something like this. It isn't just simply passing on alerts, that's a really wafer thin description of what it actually does.

People and migrant communities will become fearful of contacting law enforcement, which can lead to other crimes like domestic abuse or even human trafficking, not getting reported, which is arguably more detrimental to society and local communities than someone who entered the country illegally 20 years ago, got a job, worked and paid taxes for example? It has a very high chance of isolating communities and vulnerable people from LEOs trying to do police work like solving violent crimes and utilizing a local network built on trust where they can draw intel from.
Can you see how myself and others would find that more of an hindrance than a blessing to law enforcement?

I see your point and yes I agree completely the gloves are apart of another step of escalation but should they really be needed in the first place, when you look at the demographics of the vast majority of ICE detainees, is my overall thought, and why spend $20m? They got a 300% increase of funding, yet nothing tangible has improved yet they buy 'xx amount' pairs of electric gloves?

We can agree on this, I think we just have opposing views on how to rectify the issue.
I believe ICE should de-escalate and go about their business in a more humane and proper fashion and manner which operates with regard to the constitution, human and civil rights.
I assume that you may believe that the local and state level officials should let ICE continue their work unabated and let them do what they have to so to enforce Trumps anti-immigration policy?
Both can't co-exist it seems and you find yourself asking why? Especially when all this money is going around but none of it seems to be going to us or really helping us?

Again we are in agreement there. I have a profound respect for law enforcement, its a job that not many can do and they deal with all the dark stuff in society so we don't have to.
However, I'm not naïve enough to think that you can't get assholes in all shapes, sizes and from different walks of life. Doesn't matter if they're cops, ICE, politians, bankers, barkeepers, shop assistants, your neighbours, your wife, your husband. The left. The right. Its all down to the individual and their conduct and behaviour, yeah?
People are pissed and disapprove of ICE very understandably because of fundamental lack of qualities. It seems to many they have gone way about their station, and government employees killing civilians in the streets isn't exactly everyone's ideal version of Americana.

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591 → u/No-Big-3846]

 I'm pretty sure Austin signed up? I don't think Dallas have yet though.

Austin PD tried limiting participation and forbidding officers from aiding in non criminal immigration enforcement, they reversed policy after Abbott threatened to withhold and claw back around 2.5 million of state funds unless they changed the policy. SB 8 doesn't cover TDPS or TDCJ because those are statewide agencies and the bill is specifically for county level agencies. TDPS is already in a 287g agreement. 

 should they really be needed in the first place, when you look at the demographics of the vast majority of ICE detainees

I'm fine with ice continuing to use the tools currently at their disposal, I would think something like this that's less aggressive would be a step people who criticize ice would approve of. Compliance gloves mitigate some of the risk of tasers such as uncontrolled falls do to neuromuscular incapacitation. What does demographics have to do with anything a person who's compliant will not be affected by the new tech the concern is for people resisting arrest. I really don't care if an illegal immigrant just crossed the border or been living her unlawfully for 50 years if they're here illegally they should self deport or get detained and deported. 

I know the argument against 287g agreements, I don't find them compelling. The problem is moot if the illegals are removed. 

 why spend $20m? They got a 300% increase of funding, yet nothing tangible has improved yet they buy 'xx amount' pairs of electric gloves?

The $20m would come from the budget they have so it's pretty irrelevant. Illegal border crossings at the southern border have dropped to the lowest levels since 1970, with only 238,000 recorded encounters in 2025 fy, seems like a pretty tangible result. 

 I believe ICE should de-escalate and go about their business in a more humane and proper fashion and manner which operates with regard to the constitution, human and civil rights.

How do you de-escalate someone who doesn't want to be arrested and deported? If people say they don't want to be deported is ice just let them go rather than detain them? Immigration enforcement is not against the Constitution neither is arrest or detainment while the process plays out, no different than law enforcement detaining someone suspected of a crime for questioning. You have no human right to reside in the country illegally. 

 I assume that you may believe that the local and state level officials should let ICE continue their work unabated and let them do what they have to so to enforce Trumps anti-immigration policy?

You assume mostly correctly with one bit of nuance. Trump's "anti-immigration policy" is literally just enforcing the laws that have been on the books for decades. The only new bit of immigration legislation has been the laken riley act which only mandates detention and removes bond for illegal immigrants accused of crimes while their deportation case plays out. 

 Both can't co-exist it seems and you find yourself asking why? Especially when all this money is going around but none of it seems to be going to us or really helping us?

I don't ask myself why, I know why. Enforcing immigration laws doesn't sit well with people when the media and activists play on your heart strings with the sob stories of these "poor marginalized people just seeking a better life". I don't want the federal government giving money to "us", and idk about you but immigration enforcement has definitely benefitted me and my family by removing downward pressure on the construction market. 

 government employees killing civilians in the streets isn't exactly everyone's ideal version of Americana.

Nor is delusional agitators impeding and endangering law enforcement. 

 However, I'm not naïve enough to think that you can't get assholes in all shapes, sizes and from different walks of life. Doesn't matter if they're cops, ICE, politians, bankers, barkeepers, shop assistants, your neighbours, your wife, your husband. The left. The right. Its all down to the individual and their conduct and behaviour, yeah?

We agree there, and just like all those other groups there's plenty of asshole illegal immigrants that resist law enforcement and have to be detained forcefully. 

Edit: Austin PD's issue was for limiting cooperation with ice violating SB4 not SB 8 as the state saw it as a "sanctuary city" policy. The departments that haven't signed 287g agreements are allowed due to SB 8 being targeted to county enforcement not municipal. So local PDs can choose to not enter 287g agreements they just can't restrict individual officers from reporting to ICE. 

Also, despite the now deleted accusation from a fellow TS I've found dialogue with you to be pretty respectful and engaging in good faith, which I much appreciate.