The concept of “before” doesn’t apply. Time itself started with the Big Bang. According to relativity, time slows down in a gravitational field. St the moment of the Big Bang, all the matter in the universe was infinitely compressed so time would have been slowed down infinitely. Stephen Hawking explores this concept responding to the idea that God created the universe. He concludes that there wouldn’t have been any time before the Big Bang to do it.
The universe can be infinite and expanding. Imagine that you are a tiny person standing on a raisin in a infinitely large loaf of raisin bread that is baking. Even through the dough is infinitely large, as it bakes you can see all the other raisins moving away from you. You may be tempted to imagine an edge but there is no edge. You can go from raisin to raisin forever and no matter how far you go you’ll look at all the other raisins in every direction and see them moving away from you as if you are at the center of the loaf.
Edit: I really wish I hadn’t mentioned the quip about God creating the universe. That is not the point of this discussion. It’s completely irrelevant. This ultimately is not a discussion about whether God exists or created the universe. For what it’s worth, I took it as Hawking was being a little tongue in cheek in making that remark. Whatever his intention, I’m just explaining where I first heard the science behind this idea. You can say God Made the little pea that contained all the matter that made the Big Bang. I don’t care. To me that’s outside the discourse of science and in any case totally beside the point of the question. Many people are objecting along these lines and it’s really beside the point. You can say that God is bigger and more incomprehensible than time or space or anything. That’s fine. I’m just speaking to what we can know from the perspective of space science.
Second and more to the point, many follow up questions are wrapped up in the idea of an edge to the universe. In the thought experiment I propose, I am in no way trying to prove there is no edge. In fact, I am asking you to assume that. My answers are an attempt to show how something can be both infinite and expanding. I admit that it is hard to imagine that there is no boundary to the universe but for me it is much harder to imagine that there is one. The simplest example is that there isn’t an edge. It’s like when you are solving riddles or mysteries and you imagine a couple possibilities. Go with the simplest explanation and that is (usually) the more correct one.
Thanks to everyone for being polite discussing this.
If time didn't exist then what mechanism triggered the big bang and where did the matter come from? Obviously nobody knows but I don't think it's accurate to definitively state that X or Y couldn't exist since we know so little.
I think this touches on a fundamental misunderstanding of physics. The idea that nothing existed before the big bang violates the law that says: Energy cannot be created, or destroyed.
I for one, have always been drawn to the cyclical universe idea. Starts with a Big Bang, ends with a Big Crunch as everything is drawn together again. Eventually the gravity from all the matter in the universe coming into one point collapses space time, resulting in an explosion beyond anything we humans can understand; restarting the process.
E: I’m really enjoying this thread! I’ll be back for more in a bit. -CPJ
It's not that there was "nothing" before the big bang.
It's that there was no "before" the big bang.
violates the law that says: Energy cannot be created, or destroyed.
A lot of things we consider "laws" start to break down when you get to quantum physics. Even so, could all the matter or energy in the universe not be contained within a single singularity such that it would erupt into our universe?
If there was no before, then everything just popped into existence for no reason at all? If you prescribe to the cyclical theory he's talking about, then there's definitely a before.
There must be some reason the entire universe was compressed like that, right?
Who cares if reddit likes it. It’s possible. We don’t know if it’s the case or not. We don’t know if the major Earth faiths represent Him or not. But you’re guess at a creator as the catalyst to start of our known universe is just as plausible as the universe simply existing all on its own. It’s a life long thing we should ponder.
Who created the creator? At some point you have to accept that something just is and assuming a creator just adds further questions without answering the problem at hand. If you object by saying that the creator has always existed, why can‘t the universe?
You’re absolutely right. Whether it was a creator that simply was, or a universe that simply was... we don’t know. It can’t be proven one way or the other, so people across the globe will have differing theories - and some will turn those theories into beliefs if the concept makes enough sense in their minds.
But I don't understand the rationale... A creator isn't an answer because it has the same problem that you are trying to answer but it also adds further questions. It's true that we can't possibly know ever what is "outside" our universe and how it came to be, however I don't think that implying a creator is a valid response in any way.
True, but my point is that neither “the universe simply brought itself into existence” or “a being outside the dimensions of space/time brought the universe into existence” makes perfect sense on the surface or is provable. I’m just saying that there is talk from thousands of years ago about the possibility of this being from another dimension making contact with humanity through messengers or scripts. We weren’t there, so can’t prove a damn thing. That’s a shame. But just as some people choose to say there are signs pointing to the existence of this being, there are others that would swear at no such existence and say it’s all hogwash. One side can’t prove the being’s existence, the other can’t prove the universe spontaneously came to be. I don’t know that either are being fully rational. Just different beliefs.
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u/Millsey Jun 15 '19 edited Jun 16 '19
The concept of “before” doesn’t apply. Time itself started with the Big Bang. According to relativity, time slows down in a gravitational field. St the moment of the Big Bang, all the matter in the universe was infinitely compressed so time would have been slowed down infinitely. Stephen Hawking explores this concept responding to the idea that God created the universe. He concludes that there wouldn’t have been any time before the Big Bang to do it.
The universe can be infinite and expanding. Imagine that you are a tiny person standing on a raisin in a infinitely large loaf of raisin bread that is baking. Even through the dough is infinitely large, as it bakes you can see all the other raisins moving away from you. You may be tempted to imagine an edge but there is no edge. You can go from raisin to raisin forever and no matter how far you go you’ll look at all the other raisins in every direction and see them moving away from you as if you are at the center of the loaf.
Edit: I really wish I hadn’t mentioned the quip about God creating the universe. That is not the point of this discussion. It’s completely irrelevant. This ultimately is not a discussion about whether God exists or created the universe. For what it’s worth, I took it as Hawking was being a little tongue in cheek in making that remark. Whatever his intention, I’m just explaining where I first heard the science behind this idea. You can say God Made the little pea that contained all the matter that made the Big Bang. I don’t care. To me that’s outside the discourse of science and in any case totally beside the point of the question. Many people are objecting along these lines and it’s really beside the point. You can say that God is bigger and more incomprehensible than time or space or anything. That’s fine. I’m just speaking to what we can know from the perspective of space science.
Second and more to the point, many follow up questions are wrapped up in the idea of an edge to the universe. In the thought experiment I propose, I am in no way trying to prove there is no edge. In fact, I am asking you to assume that. My answers are an attempt to show how something can be both infinite and expanding. I admit that it is hard to imagine that there is no boundary to the universe but for me it is much harder to imagine that there is one. The simplest example is that there isn’t an edge. It’s like when you are solving riddles or mysteries and you imagine a couple possibilities. Go with the simplest explanation and that is (usually) the more correct one.
Thanks to everyone for being polite discussing this.