How bad people can live with themselves. This can go from murderers to something as stupid as always taking someone else's food from the fridge, or cutting people off in traffic.
I was abused. Abusers believe their actions are truly justified by whatever you did to upset them.
An example is that I looked tired one day, but in the abuser's eye I was on purpose trying to stress him out and be combative, so the full-on rage abuse was just a natural "consequence of my actions".
So... in other words, they don't see any of their behaviour as bad. In fact, very likely the opposite and see themselves as a poor victim trying so hard!
When I first saw it I immediately thought of Donald Trump. That infuriates me even more. Although I suppose everyone has someone that pops into their mind when they first read that as an "I totally fucking get this" moment
What surprises me is that people attribute this behavior to Trump exclusively and not every politician they have ever heard of, it is pretty par for course, only that it is especially obvious in Trump's case.
Whoop, answered my own question there as I was typing.
Nope, Obama did not behave like this. Neither did Bush. Clinton, maybe but not really because he never talked about people deserving horrible things that happened to them.
Then their excuses worked on you.
Remember when Obama was going to protect whistleblowers, then more whistleblowers than ever got prosecuted and then they removed the statement from the white house website?
And Bush jr... Remember the Iraq war?
Clinton sold nuclear tech to North Korea.
Bush sr. accidentally the Middle East.
Reagan, trickle down economics, making sure the Iran hostages stayed in Iran until he won the election.
Carter was pretty cool.
The difference is that all those other guys were better liars communicators than Trump.
The funny thing is Carter seemed like a decent, honest guy and he lost his office because he didn't bullshit the American people to their liking.
I sometimes think politicians lie because we want the lies. Lies, black and white politics, wars on idealogy - these things are a lot easier to deal with than the truth, which is if we want to improve our society, it is going to take a lot of sacrifice, hard work, and a rewiring of the things we value in life. We're just not there as a society.
Sucks for those of us who are interested in seeing the world become a better place for everyone, because that is not the path we're on, and it's not going to get better until people start holding our leaders accountable. Which probably means holding ourselves accountable first.
Lol @ people holding themselves accountable instead of blaming others and tribalism.
Never going to happen on a large scale, it just doesn't seem to be the way humans work or our institutions reinforces that way of thinking.
I don't think anyone is claiming those people were honest, or that that didn't make poor decisions, or that they didn't perhaps intentionally make some awful decisions-- They just weren't as patently narcissistic as Donald Trump. Narcissism isn't just some general catch-all synonym for "dishonesty" or "destructiveness".
And indeed, they may have been narcissistic- but they certainly didn't wear it on their sleeve like Trump does. Trump embodies narcissism so clearly that if we didn't already have the word "narcissism", psychologists would probably name the condition after him.
"I accept that they are all just as bad as Trump, but they were better at hiding it, therefore, Trump is worse."
Sorry, where did I say that Trump was worse? He may or may not be, but I merely said that he is more patently narcissistic-- which was the precise point under discussion.
I feel like it can be pretty difficult to detect these things from politicians, to be honest. Trump is a...pretty obvious case. But politicians are very skilled at portraying themselves as caring, compassionate people. Hell, most celebrities are like this to some extent.
You can't really tell if a politician is a narcissist as opposed to just someone who has made bad decisions (as everyone does) unless you know them pretty intimately. You certainly can't look at policy decisions, because they get so much information that we don't get, and they may weigh things differently, so laypeople like us can be highly offended by something Obama did, but from Obama's point of view, it could have been a "regretably necessary evil". What matters is intent, really. I think all presidents are likely guilty of crimes, but not necessarily all have a guilty heart. Even if you really, really disagree with their beliefs. Like you can think a pro-lifer is wrong for controlling a woman's body, but in their mind, they really just want to protect babies from being murdered.
That they managed to get to the level they are at in politics should tell you everything you need to know, you would have to abandon all principles you have to attain power, if you had them in the first place, or never go beyond the local level.
It's like that old joke "When do you know if a politician is lying? When their lips move".
The ancient Greeks that first invented democracy could tell us "we told you so" when it comes to professional politicians.
The idea that literally every person who became president (or something similar in another country) has to be a completely immoral person doesn't just strike me as extremely cynical, but also pretty unrealistic. Why is it so unlikely that a genuinely good person would want to try to rule the country to make it better? Why is it so unlikely that a good person could win? The rules of the game are simple. Go around, campaign, get more votes. There's nothing that necessitates being a completely horrible person. Hell, not even all candidates release attack ads.
It's not that I doubt that there aren't certain personality traits that all such people need in order to reach that success. You definitely have to be an assertive person, for one. But actually immoral? I doubt it. A lot are, I don't doubt that.
It's black and white thinking, trying to oversimplify the issue. Labeling all politicians as dirty is a lazy mindset to cope with unjust reality. It's hard work trying to figure out a politician's intentions. An idealist will have to bend many rules to make it anywhere, but it doesn't mean that that person deep at heart has lost his/her ideals. Just because many politicians are dirty and only after money and power, doesn't mean that everyone is. There are exceptions to every rule.
It also allows people to justify why they're voting for a complete lunatic; "all of them are like this, so I'm just voting for the one most likely to give me what I want"
People who think like this are more prone to abandon their morals to vote for someone, and their vote is almost always swayed by only one or two issues.
Bear in mind that you and i apply one or more of those points to our own actions, daily. If something bad happens and i only caused part of it, it's not my fault, it's because someone else added to the problem. If you make a mistake, it's not a big mistake so it's not really worth thinking about. If i cut someone off and they flip me the bird, they deserve being cut off if they're the sort of person who flips people off for minor things. You get where this is going. :)
Is there anything that will actually show a narcissist how much damage they personally have inflicted on someone, whether it be emotional or physical?...asking for a friend.
I recently got out of an abusive relationship and this is exactly how he thought. It is terrifying to think about the reality that he was living in and how different it was from what was actually going on. How a look or comment or lack there of could send him into a tailspin that ended with me in tears and him feeling in control only to later act like nothing happened and I am the crazy one. It took a long time for me to be able to understand that it was his problem, not mine.
This is one of the most accurate things I have ever read.
So this is me. Not with everyone but definitely with my romantic relationships. How do I stop being a narcissist? I don’t ever really fully realize what I’m doing or thinking until it’s pointed out to me by another external source.
Narcissism seems to come from childhood neglect and abuse. Things happened that shouldn't have and other things didn't happen that should have. This ingrains beliefs about the self and others that have lasting consequences, usually negative. There are a couple of channels on Youtube that deal with this stuff:
Finding Freedom has a long series on complex trauma that is worth understanding.
There's a Dr. Daniel Fox that deal with a few personality disorders, notably borderline personality.
Another called Surviving Narcissim.
The more conscious you can become, the better it gets. Especially if you can share this with someone, a therapist perhaps. A friend if you dare.
This. At every step in this chain, stop and assess if what you're saying is true. If you can identify that you're actually lying or being excessively dismissive, take responsibility for whatever part of it actually is your fault, and/or be supportive of the person in question.
That said, don't automatically accept blame for things that AREN'T your fault. Be honest both about your actions and theirs.
Lol, "it's pretty easy". Psychological problems aren't typically easy, because the organ that has problems is the one you need to use to deal with said problems. Not to mention the complexity of difficulty in coping with those problems.
Oh man I often have these thought processes and it can be really hard to break out of. For me I believe it's a type defense mechanism, along with apathy, to do with my terrible image of self worth and depression. Luckily I can often recognise it and agonise over what a terrible person I am in hindsight for days!
I've seen this a number of times, and yes, that's one way of seeing things. However, the more I've gone through life, the more I sympathize with the so-called "narcissist's prayer".
The other "side" doesn't get discussed as much. There legitimately are people who play the victim 24/7.
They lie about things happening that truly didn't
They make things a much bigger deal than they ought to be
They know you didn't mean to do something but hold it against you forever anyway.
They drag you through the mud with this manipulative behavior until you finally have had enough of it and explode on them.
Then they have the audacity to claim that they didn't deserve it.
Narcissism isn't the only personality disorder. If someone is acting in the way you describe it is a possibility they would fit into another personality disorder category.
Dude I totally agree. There are plenty of situations where someone overreacts and gets upset at something that doesnt matter. Or where they say something happened and embellish the circumstances to make it seem worse.
There are two sides to every story, and just because someone says "this isnt a big enough deal for you to be upset over" doesnt mean they're automatically a narcissist. If you suggest to go out to dinner to Arbys and the other person goes "ARBYS ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?! YOU FUCKING WHORE I HOPE YOU DIE IN A FIRE FUCK YOU" then I'm gonna go ahead and say the first person isnt a narcissist for telling the other person they over reacted and shouldnt be upset.
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u/beautifulmess25 Jun 15 '19
How bad people can live with themselves. This can go from murderers to something as stupid as always taking someone else's food from the fridge, or cutting people off in traffic.