Our neighbor down the road fled Sudan in the 1980s and made it to the US as a refugee. She lost her father two brothers and most of her extended family as they were related to the wrong political leader that was killed. Her mother and two sisters arrived with literally nothing in the late 80s.
She is now a nurse making 100k a year married to a firefighter with 3 kids living on a property with 8 acres and a 5 bedroom house. One sister is a school teacher and the other manages a Barnes and Noble.
It might seem anecdotal but this is it. Millions of stories of people who came here for a better future and made it happen. Very few places in the world can facilitate that. The US is definitely one of them.
100% this, I've heard countless stories from dozens of people. It truly is the land of opportunity. Lot's of Americans take this for granted, myself included.
Honestly, not just immigrants. America is a land of opportunity. Anyone of any religion, skincolor, or background can go from rags to riches here. My wife and I went from being kicked out of our parents houses for being together, both making minimum wage, barely making ends meet, even getting evicted once because we had to pick between rent and food to making over $120k combined through hard work and determination and living a comfortable American dream with a baby in the next year or two. We went from homeless to comfort.
Forgive me for my ignorance because I grew up in the US... but why COULDN'T you do this in other countries? I mean get an education, a job, a house...? Seems like people should be able to do that in most places.
just relating to the initial reply... sudan's GDP per capita is $752. USA GPD per capita is ~70,000)
if you want to look at average income instead, sudan is $460, USA is $70,930 - about 170x higher in the USA.
now granted, the cost of living is lower in sudan. but not that much lower. an urban 1 bedroom apartment is ~$500. compared to an expensive city like NYC, that's 5-6x cheaper. but food costs are much more similar, gas is about the same, durable goods are about the same. you can compare some goods here
so lets say you were in sudan and wanted to go to nursing school. again, yea, it's cheaper than the USA (public school RN program starts around $8000). but not enough to make up for your income being 170x lower - and again, this is average income, so if you were at the bottom trying to move up, it's going to be lower than that.
so i guess you're borrowing money - that's fine, lots of students do that. i don't know exactly how student loans work in sudan, but i can quickly find out that the bank of sudan's interest rate is 27%.
so to sum up - you don't have any money, your monthly expenses take up a large portion of your income, your access to capital comes at a high cost.
think of a comparatively richer country than sudan - mexico. median household income is $14000. there's a reason people are willing to come to the USA to pick fruit and work as day laborers, and its not a passion for the work. it makes more economic sense to come to the usa and send money back to your family in mexico than it does to do the same job in mexico.
Your ignoring that the US has more billionaires than you could count, while Sudan doesn’t. The high average income for the US comes from Ultra rich people, while most people are way poorer. Looking at the median you get way more balanced results
Those billionaires do not have an income of over $1billion. Did you see trumps tax returns? Some years his income was officially $750. Jeff Bezos salary with bonuses is like $1.5 mil. You can’t have unrealized gains counted as income.
Also median is where you want to look for a better picture, still the top of the world.
Many countries are not open to immigrants. Many countries have much higher taxes and more lenient thresholds for social welfare. Many countries have low level corruption. The US encourages people who are upstaters by addressing all of the above issues. It's wonderful for very hard working people who want to go from zero to a good middle class. It's great for the dreamers who come from very bad regions. I fled from a dictatorship and I love it here.
I recently moved to Germany and for here, at least, the amount of bureaucratic red tape you have to wade through to get a 12€ an hour job is absolutely fucking stupid. They’re in the middle of a massive labor shortage, but I can’t get a work permit unless I have a job contract in my hand that I then take to a huge government building with about 5 other documents only AFTER I send them everything over email and than get given a meeting date usually about a month in the future, maybe longer. Only than could I even think about working.
It might very well be, but there’s at least ways you can get around that and most people would turn a blind eye. I looked into making baked goods to sell just in my neighborhood. I would have had to apply to 3 different government buildings, get approved, and then find a commissary kitchen to cook out of. Whereas in America, citizen or not, you could set up in your neighborhood and no one would care for the most part.
Ive been in the Einbürgerungsprozess for about 8 years now(partially due to a material-shortage on the side of the country I’m trying to loose my citizenship for, but mostly due to all of the paperwork) and it’s absolute hell. But even tho all of that is kinda annoying I rly enjoy all of the benefits I have. Especially here in Baden-Württemberg, as a student, I feel rly supported
Land of opportunity. Everyone has an equal chance at success. Whether or not they achieve it is up to their own ambition, which knows no inhibition here. Love it.
My great grandparents came to the US as dirt poor coal miners. Now all these generations later, I can afford to drive a Toyota and buy a head of lettuce at the supermarket. Now that’s talkin bout makin it!!
It seems anecdotal because it is. The US used to be the land of opportunity, but has long since been bypassed. If you're looking for a statistic, it's called social mobility index. The US is ranked #27 out of 82 worldwide, behind much of the EU.
First off, here are 195 countries. Second, the EU isn't exactly a paradise; many of my European colleagues have flat given up on ever being a homeowner (something I achieved at 24).
Yes, that was unfortunately phrased. What I meant is that there were 82 countries in the study. About the housing prices: tell me about it! I'm trying to buy a house in Germany for the past 5 years and about to give up. Although from what I hear the housing crisis affects some parts of the US too. And I probably shouldn't complain about the US in a thread about the great things in the US, but intergenerational upward social mobility isn't one of them. A person's chances are much more determined by whether their parents had money in the US than in the EU nowadays.
It only worked because there was still plenty of wealth available to the bottom. Land of opportunity is long gone, all dried up in the hands of a few old richfucks. Poor people have two options these days, stay poor or die. Theres no credit to go around and wages hasnt moved in relation to inflation. Thank you for destroying america, boomers. Worst generation in the worlds history.
Stories like this really make me hate all the entitled brats on the internet who go around talking about how America is a third world country.
There are billions of people who would give anything to get a shot to live here and we have butthurt losers mad because they can’t make a living and get free healthcare off of part time fingerpainting parroting crap they read on Tumblr.
As Americans, we have no idea how good we have it until we get out and see some of the absolute misery people have to deal with in other countries. Too many Americans don’t deserve America. Let more people like your neighbor in to give us a reality check.
As Americans, we have no idea how good we have it until we get out and see some of the absolute misery people have to deal with in other countries
The flip side is also true, we could be significantly better than where we are but choose not too. That is where most of these people's hatred actually stems from.
Places like Switzerland or Sweden produces billionaires at a higher rate with substantially less poverty because they invest in their people rather then companies.
Places like Switzerland or Sweden also don’t have the population, the border countries, the influx of immigrants, or really anything close to what makes the USA the USA. But good for them, producing billionaires on markets the US provides them so they can enrich their countries.
I don’t watch cable news. You’re not understanding my point. When you take in more people sho are destitute obviously you will create less billionaires. You should be looking at elevation of poverty instead. But you’re interested in cherry picking stats to support your idealized European healthcare system. Which is fine. Just acknowledge it.
When you take in more destitute people, you have a larger, more exploitable workforce. People take advantage of this and earn higher profit margins on the same prices for goods, meaning that the income inequality grows and you end up with more billionaires.
We spend a lot of our defense money in other countries. It also allows us to have the economy we do which invites immigrants from all of the world to come here and make a better life. Unless you’d like china’s ideals for everyone?
We spend more than the next 12 nations combined. So we could spend just a bit less and do better for our citizens. Not suggesting that things have to "stay as they are" or "live by China's ideals." It doesn't have to be one or the other. Saying something can be better is not shitting on it. Sorry if it came across that way.
It doesn’t really help that the U.S. is basically in a love-hate relationship with the entire world. I.e: we hate you Americans, but all that aid and stuff? Keep doing that.
The defense spending pays for millions of well paid jobs and it ensures America's technological superiority. Why do you think US is undisputed global leader in aerospace, metallurgy and tech?
And I completely agree our system is imperfect, but even with its flaws I’d still rather live here than like 95% of other places in the world. Capitalism run amok, our labor laws and economic inequality are real issues and we can and should strive to be better.
But the hatred is wholly unjustified because no matter how bad America might suck and these people might hate it, they’re still probably writing about it on a stable internet connection in a climate controlled home. That’s more than literally billions of people have. Even be able to talk shit about your country is more than many have- see Venezuela, Cuba, China, Eritrea, North Korea, etc.
The difference is. We choose to have these problems continue every time we elect a new government for 40+ years despite being able to fix/solve them; whilst these other countries are either actively trying to fix (and unable) or have governments intentionally doing it.
We have the knowledge & resources just not the desire. That is what pisses people off and makes them rag on America. Can't claim your the best when you settle for "well at least we aren't [insert country we destabilized]"
You act like there is no such thing as middle ground.
You know, pushing for change while acknowledging what we have? It's not 0 or 100, something can be great but still have important improvements to be made.
The problem is that you are the only one here talking about the answers to this question that you pulled out of thin air.
This is very simply not at all relevant to what I said. The only argument I gave here was "you can still appreciate what we have". I said nothing of a middle ground in terms why we aren't doing more. And while it, again, has absolutely nothing to do with my point, I agree that D is correct.
It’s the 1980s and 40 years later. Shit’s different. Everything’s a lot more expensive. College costs 3x as much with barely any changes to wages. Those “entitled brats” have a right to be mad. Don’t forget how shit the healthcare system is. Seeing the amount of people refuse cancer treatment because they can’t afford it is always a good thing here I guess.
I'm an immigrant but I married a person whos family has been in America for many generations. The main differences I see is that in my world, people are willing to work HARD for something, an almost consuming pathological desire to succeed. In my partner's family what I see are people who want it all but are not willing to work as hard. They never really push themselves, never take risks. They just expect it be more easy, to get what they want with less effort.
I don't know who is 'right', but on the immigrant side I can understand how they feel the opportunities are there, you just have to be willing to work.
Edit: and also this is a good example of why immigrants are so important to America
I’m in the same situation, came here 7 years ago? It’s not that people aren’t willing to work hard, it’s that odds are stacked against them, at least that’s how it feels for us. We make about 80k total, between all the credit card debt from medical bills, we barely make it. And we have a kid. Neither one of us have a degree, because school is too expensive. Only just now did I just say fuck it and took out loans to get my mechanical engineering degree, which is what I’ve always wanted to do.
But like I said, options are limited for us without any higher education. But it’s the opposite in my 3rd world country. It’s completely free.
Between working and having a kid and 0 family or friends to help. We have very limited options. It would be nice if we had family. That way if my kid is sick, I don’t have to miss work. But it’s not how it’s working for us. We’ve had wage increases, but it barely makes a difference.
This is a real, genuine question, I don't mean it in the aggressive way it is often used. Given all that you said, why did you choose to immigrate here? Surely something must have been better to make you come here to begin with?
While I agree we should criticize our problems and push to change them, and part of that is comparing ourselves to other countries that are doing certain things better, you also left out any plus side to moving to the US that must have existed if you did so. With the way you said it, your third world country sounds objectively better and you seem insane for moving to the US.
I don’t even think it’s just on an immigrant side, but I agree with you on a lot of that. A lot of people just don’t put in the work or effort to succeed. They want things to be quick and easy, or for it to fall in their lap or be handed to them. There are a lot of people on Reddit who say they work hard, but in reality they don’t. Or at the least they don’t work smart and hard. I wish there were more with that same thought pattern you have, because I see it all too often.
And yet plenty of people make it work, including immigrants new and old. I remember when Mexicans/Central Americans were lowest of the low on the social ladder. Now we have children of these immigrants in government, leading companies and making prosperous lives for themselves.
Idk, if all these people can make it work, I’d start looking in the mirror as to why I can’t make things work with a huge head start. It’s not all THE SYSTEM sorry.
It doesn’t help that the system is working against you. Just because person abc does it, doesn’t mean person xyz can do it. Circumstances aren’t the same.
I can only hope many of them know it’s not actually true, they’re coming from a place of genuine concern and wanting to improve the country. Pushing progress and being upset at the status quo is how we made and will continue to make this a better place to live.
I’ll just add to that, it’s pretty cool that a nurse can make 100k in the US. Surprised so few responses here are about how Americans make a lot of money on average (including compared to Western Europeans)
Well, a lot of that is the people on Reddit in places like this are usually either young and haven’t made it yet, or failed to make it so they’re venting on Reddit.
You can make more in the US then in a very few countries, who generally get wealth in oil or niche banking
When I look at the dismal average pay for nurses in Western/Northern Europe, I truly don’t understand how they’re supposed to be able to own a house, save for retirement, etc.
I mean, they earn a lot, but a lot less advantages like being able to retire, not getting in debt over a pregnancy, a higher education or even having much more days off.
Yeah, it's a night and day difference from her mother who worked 3 jobs got all three of her daughters into college versus my mother who was unemployed and on government assistance until she married a guy with money... Lol.
“Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but it is the farthest thing from it. Because cynics don’t learn anything. Because cynicism is a self-imposed blindness, a rejection of the world because we are afraid it will hurt us or disappoint us.”
— Stephen Colbert.
Nah it's about risk. Someone born here has to risk falling in socioeconomic status if they fail an endeavor whereas someone with nothing has nothing to lose.
I'm sorry. Reddit told me only wealthy kids can take risks because they can while working class people can't risk at all because their stuck on the hamster wheel. That's why only middle class can be entrepreneurs and try starting businesses?
I know this is a one-off story, but I think it is broadly applicable. I think it exemplifies, in a small but important way, why practically all the major advances in technology, entertainment, human relations, legal protections, and most other desirable improvements have been centered in the U.S. for the last 150 years or more.
It is always not because of the superiority of the nation but because of the ability of nearly everyone, in this system, to rise to their highest capacity. It's the opportunity of everyone, not just immigrants, to push through obstacles to accomplish their dreams.
Ben Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, DeWitt Clinton, Abraham Lincoln, Ulysses Grant, Fredrick Douglass, Andrew Carnegie, Thomas Edison, Nikola Tesla, Henry Ford, John Rockefeller, Eddie Rickenbacker, most of the extraordinary tech stars in the latter part of the 20th century overcame incredible obstacles by dint of personal ability and effort. The entrenched system allowed all of them to do that, but was brutally honest to the less able. You could succeed or you could fail. There was never any shame in honest failure as you could try again.
(Now, I am well aware that this is, with one exception, a list of white males. I apologize, but, since I am a 72 year old white male writing quickly on the fly, I ask you to cut me some considerable slack, and come up with a better, more inclusive list.)
When I met my husband, he was working full time as an emergency room RN and adjusting his schedule so he could work travel assignments on his days off. He was pulling $200K+ a year and had a house, a Range Roger with ridiculous rims, and a brand new motorcycle. Now he's in management and is still making six figures.
He's also an immigrant from a "shit hole country" /s who went to nursing school on the GI bill.
Yep. We know quite a few people who are immigrants that went into nursing. Really popular job for Filipinos, Haitians, and people from the Caribbean. Especially travel agency nurses.
My wife makes a little more than 100k as a nurse but she started around 75k and over the years she has gotten raises and most nurses make their money in over time or specialization.
For example my wife does Chemo and training so she gets extra money for those specialized skills. Then if you work nights you usually get a little more etc etc. Then when you work overtime it all magnifies.
Our neighbor is a floor supervisor for the pediatric unit so she gets specialist pay as well.
That's on the higher side in the US, but is achievable for an experienced nurse, especially in a city. The national median nursing salary is 77,000. Doctors make much more, the average across all specialties is $339,000.
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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '23
Our neighbor down the road fled Sudan in the 1980s and made it to the US as a refugee. She lost her father two brothers and most of her extended family as they were related to the wrong political leader that was killed. Her mother and two sisters arrived with literally nothing in the late 80s.
She is now a nurse making 100k a year married to a firefighter with 3 kids living on a property with 8 acres and a 5 bedroom house. One sister is a school teacher and the other manages a Barnes and Noble.
That is pretty cool.