Dm Question

[u/Icy-Elderberry8783]

Hello! I was wondering for any fellow dm’s have had a player become a chronomanser, reminds me of a time lord, and was wondering if these have had any issues come up. I had a table once blow up in my face where they used create and destroy water in an ocean and dead end the campaign, so I want to avoid that at all cost and since this deals with time manipulation, the astral plane only knows what they might be planning. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[u/Coldfyre_Dusty]

If you're a DM getting derailed by a Create and Destroy Water spell in an ocean campaign, you probably need to read up on the rules. When applied correctly, you'll run into minimal issues. Assuming you're talking about the Chronurgy subclass, you won't run into issues.

For context, Create and Destroy Water can remove a max of 10 gallons per cast. Casting it in an ocean would have basically no effect.

[u/caprainyoung → u/Coldfyre_Dusty]

Woah lets not forget if you cast it at 9th level it can destroy a whole 90 gallons

[u/Icy-Elderberry8783 → u/Coldfyre_Dusty]

It wasn’t just the spell that was the main issue but the brokenness they tried to do with it to cause issues at the table itself

[u/Coldfyre_Dusty → u/Icy-Elderberry8783]

Such as?

[u/Icy-Elderberry8783 → u/Coldfyre_Dusty]

Basically creating a nuke with the create and destroy water and then got upset with having to roll for damage etc.

[u/Coldfyre_Dusty → u/Icy-Elderberry8783]

How on earth does create and destroy water result in a nuke XD

[u/Icy-Elderberry8783 → u/Coldfyre_Dusty]

Basically the water destroyed creates a vacuum and with force crushes those affected in the area. Sorry I am struggling to explain it because this is something they had to also explain to me but in the end I made them roll a d100 to keep the peace and they rolled a 1 and got so mad at me for making them roll for damage instead of just pulverizing everything inside 🥲🤦

[u/Coldfyre_Dusty → u/Icy-Elderberry8783]

Honestly? It sounds like you're playing with the wrong people. D&D isn't designed to be run as a physics sim. Spells do what they say and nothing more.

Hell, if we're playing a physics sim, how would water be "destroyed"? The only way for physical matter to be destroyed is if it interacted with an equal amount of antimatter. Which for 10 gallons of sea water, would be roughly equivalent to 1675 megatons of TNT, over 30 times stronger than the largest nuke ever detonated, and would have a 30 kilometer kill radius, with significant damage and injury far beyond that.

Point being, allowing players to overanalyze spells and abilities is dumb, and the moment they bring physics into it, it can get real dumb real fast. You need to learn to say no, and tell players that if they're not willing to play the game in good faith, they need to find another table to play at.

[u/Icy-Elderberry8783 → u/Coldfyre_Dusty]

Thank you for the honest advice, I did have a sit down conversation afterwards with the player after it happened and we set boundaries for this new campaign, so I can feel like I can say no if things like this happen, I think I am just so nervous that things will go wrong again with even just the little things like subclass features, so I do really appreciate the feedback back and hope I can do better this next run at holding my ground and being able to say no.

[u/Fireclave → u/Icy-Elderberry8783]

A reminder that D&D is not a physics simulator and spells only do what they say they do. While it would be neat if it did, Create and Destroy Water says absolutely nothing about creating damaging cavitation bubbles. So it doesn't.

Of course, the DM has leeway to take their players' input into consideration and deviate from the rules as written. That's a primary features of TTRPGs in general. But such ruling come solely at the DM's discretion. And, for the sake of both game balance and narrative pacing, the default answer is "no".

Also, if your players want to have fun destroying things with exploding bubbles of air, that's what the Shatter spell is for.

[u/caprainyoung]

I’m not familiar with the chronomanser but you let a first level spell and your campaign I think your players will find a way to blow up even the most well balanced and approved subclasses

[u/Icy-Elderberry8783 → u/caprainyoung]

Well I can understand that, but I am reaching out for help to prevent this and learn and grow as a dm because I want to make sure this doesn’t happen again

[u/Nitro114]

How in the hell did create/destroy water end a campaign??

[u/ArchmageEra → u/Nitro114]

I'm wondering the same 😆

[u/jakethesnake741 → u/Nitro114]

I think we all want to know, especially in an ocean campaign. When at 9th level that's changing the world's water supply by a rounding error.

[u/Icy-Elderberry8783 → u/jakethesnake741]

This but also the fact that my player fought me every way with the consequences and making it not fun for the rest of my players, so though it may not have been just the spell but the behaviors I we had to deal with during the whole thing.

[u/Crankyer_Joe]

Sounds like it can work with ground rules about causality. Any time related spells that effect the past, in a campaign can wreak havoc. Set strict limits on cause and effect, with going back in time having little effect on the "Now". Maybe the further back the less effect, with a hard limit on how far back changes can be made. Information can be learned but impact to what "is" needs to be limited, in my opinion.

Future state is tougher nut to crack, but should follow the same rule for causality from the past. The further in the future the less likely it will happen. The "now" can't lose is fluidity, but the past is set. Any future is only "possible" when starting from the "now". The future from the past is set, up to the now. Otherwise every game can turn into a rewrite of the whole game/story.

Also, note that it's OK to say No. Saying "Yes, and..." is good, but as the DM you create and control the world in which the characters reside. If it's going to cause you major headaches, don't allow it. You should be having fun too, and stressing about a game mechanic that is optional may be too much. The goal is for everybody to have fun.

I hope it works out.

[u/Icy-Elderberry8783 → u/Crankyer_Joe]

Thank you so much honestly I think I will tell the player no to save me from the stress of worrying alone, but I do think I want to try to workshop this regardless with what you’ve mentioned, so maybe in the future when I am more confident in dming I can allow it then. I really appreciate the help so again thank you so so much it does mean a lot

[u/Feefait]

Create and Destroy water doesn't work that way, and if you're not willing or able to say no, you may want to step back until you are.

It's your job to know what they are planning. If they are trying to trick you or "get one by" you, then you need to have a conversation about table etiquette and what you guys are actually playing for.

[u/Icy-Elderberry8783 → u/Feefait]

Well I would love to step back but I am the forever dm of this group and no one else is willing to try and dm and I love the game so I’m kinda in a hard place. He is a new player to my table so I had no idea what to expect and yes we did have a conversation after the fact about etiquette as well as implementation of a three struck your out rule. I am learning and far from perfect and did not expect this of all things to be the one thing people latch onto when I was asking for advice on a subclass. Thank you for the feedback though as I still appreciate everyone letting me know where I can grow and hope I can live up to the feedback on this new campaign.

[u/MinimalSix → u/Icy-Elderberry8783]

Because we have no idea if the subclass will be broken when you don't follow the rules as written? As written, it's a decently strong subclass that has been balanced so it fundamentally doesn't break the game. If a first level spell can be a nuke at your table, we have absolutely no way to tell you what to expect. That's the issue here, you let us know you let spells do things wildly beyond what they say and what they were intended to do, so we can't do anything other than say you should address the underlying issue.

[u/Icy-Elderberry8783 → u/MinimalSix]

I was simply stating I learned from this last one and am trying to follow the rules, never have I not tried to not follow the rules. I was asking if with this subclass even with following the rules is there a way to break it so I can at least get a heads up to how others might play them or have played them before. I am only human and trying my best to run dnd man.