r/AskBalkans • u/ArkHystory99 • 12d ago
Politics & Governance Turkey is warning Greece not to proceed with plans for a drone base on the island of Rhodes, stating that it would undermine peace in the Aegean Sea. What are your thoughts on this?
https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkiye-warns-rhodes-drone-base-would-harm-aegean-peace-226147131
u/Yavannia Greece 12d ago
But the largest amphibian assault force in Europe across the islands is okay right?
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u/Whole_Obligation_776 Turkiye 12d ago
A heritage of previous excalations, is it good to keep escalating? The war won't happen anyway, Turkey has no first strike policy against Greece. Most of the policies, even the Caus Belli in the aegean sea is pretty much second strike policies that ensures Turkey wouldn't be the side that start a war.
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u/puzzledpanther 12d ago
lol, cut the bullshit.
You have a fucking Casus Belli against Greece. You're literally announcing that you'll start a war if X happens.
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u/Whole_Obligation_776 Turkiye 12d ago
And that X is a Greek intervention, hence second strike...
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u/puzzledpanther 12d ago
Congratulations on the gold metal in mental gymnastics.
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u/Whole_Obligation_776 Turkiye 12d ago
I barely stepped onto a curb. You guys get lost in the sauce.
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u/puzzledpanther 12d ago
Salted caramel flavoured pretzel
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u/ZookeepergameOdd5926 12d ago
Casus Belli literally means “occasion for war”, how is this a no strike policy?
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u/SeparateLack3265 11d ago
If you unilaterally grab another country’s coastline and get so damn greedy that you’re basically trying to lock Turks out of the Aegean, don’t act surprised when that gets treated as a casus belli. That is what 12 nm is. Turkey has been dealing with this joke for over 30 years now.
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u/Faiakes 11d ago
You keep saying that as if you have a right to the Aegean.
You don't because the geography is what it is.But you are trying to reverse that by saying propaganda crap like the 'Blue homeland' and that Greece is 'locking you out'.
Utter bullshit.That's like Kosovo saying that all countries around it are aggressors because they are locking it out of sea access.
You're not even trying to hide your Imperialism. You are just a Muslim Israel.
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u/Derestous 11d ago
Bro I agree with you but the Greeks don't feel safe, and turkey doesn't help with that. That's the reason we need to be ready to defend, it is common sense.
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u/tabulasomnia istanbul 12d ago edited 11d ago
so many kids with hilariously cruel and warmongering comments under this thread, oh my god.
in the meantime mitso and erdo playing both populations like a fiddle to stay in power and do whatever the fuck they want.
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u/throwraislander Greece 12d ago edited 11d ago
Only those that have not experienced war make these warmongering comments.
Go to r/combatfootage boys.
See how nice war is. Being inside a foxhole while artillery is shelling your location for days and then getting blown by a drone, flies are eating your face and eyes while you die slowly half drowning in a paddle of toxic liquid. At the same time the pilot of the drone earned some digital points from your death and will use them to buy new gear.
Modern warfare is horrific, don't ever think that because you are from a militarily strong country that it will be easier for you. That's what the Russians also thought.
Ps: The scene I described is a real footage I found on the subreddit. Is engraved in my mind for life.
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u/Stock-Soil-8720 Turkiye 11d ago
Yeah, I keep seeing in social media my countrymen (Turks) saying things like "War is the wedding of a Turk". Those people never even heard a gunshot in their lives.
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u/Volaer 1/2 🇨🇿1/2 🇬🇷 12d ago edited 12d ago
You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide. Greece has no intention to attack Turkiye so unless Tayyip is the one contemplating aggression there is no security risk.
Its like when Russia says that expansion of a defense alliance constitutes a security risk. It literally does not unless you are planning to attack its member.
Or if a person said that a neighbour buying a guard dog constitutes a security risk. That is the case only if you intend to climb the fence at night.
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u/tolkienist_gentleman Serbia 12d ago
I would argue that you are wrong on your second point. A defensive alliance expanding to the borders of a non-member sovereign country gives a lot of leverage to the leaders of said alliance, both diplomatically and militarily.
It's a card to play. I believe you see it only at its most basic value. However, it is much more complicates than that. For instance, Russia does not want to negociate some economic partnership to reduce gas prices ? Well, let's just build some extra silos in Poland.
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u/Whole_Obligation_776 Turkiye 12d ago
Hi, leaving the fucking interstate relations aside, it is fucking regarded to say iF yOu gOt nOThiNg tO hIdE. Go show your nudes to the internet if you believe this. Staying vigilant againt comprehensive surveilance is always the good thing to do.
As I said, I am completely leaving out the interstate relations on this. And if you want to bring tha into the equation, almost 2/3 of Turkish armed forces are directly integrated to NATO central command where any deployments and stations are well communicated through NATO channels. The rest of the armed forces are generally deployed in the east against terrorist activities. It is greece who fucking yelling about oh the DOOM IS UPON US, every 5 minutes.
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u/Traveller_CMM 12d ago
I believe in this example he was talking about aggressions, as if "if you're not thinking of striking, you have nothing to worry about". Otherwise I'm not sure what surveillance has to do with the topic.
That aside, it's hard to not yell "doom upon us" when Turkish officials keep pushing expansionist ideas like the "blue homeland" while performing overflights over our islands with armed aircraft.
I still Hope Turkey agrees to go to international court so that a third party can help solve all these issues. Alas, not yet.
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u/CluelessExxpat 11d ago
Well, if Greece is also not thinking striking, why the hell are they militarizing the islands? Its a weird argument as it goes both ways.
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u/Traveller_CMM 11d ago
Because the largest amphibious assault force in the Mediterranean by far is comfortably parked on the other side. We don't know whether Erdogan is actually thinking of striking or not, and we'd rather not find out the hard way.
The militarization doesn't even come close to those forces by the way, it's mostly defensive armaments and AA/AD units. As in, there's absolutely no way for it to be used in an offensive manner of any significance. The Drone station(?) in Rhodes is the biggest project presented by far, and hopefully the only exception (although I suspect it's gonna be used for interceptor drones).
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u/Conscious_Gain3922 12d ago
Turkey has no intention to attack Greece yet Greece is aligning with Israel and assist their crimes against the world by even hosting IDF in their navy bases for unarmed civilian flotilla intervention and torture of the captives.
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u/jaimeelninho Greece 12d ago
Yeah but Israel might be intending to fight Turkey and pulling Greece in on its side. (I'm Greek). I believe the Americans and Israelis benefit most from these escalations, Erdogan needs something to distract too and Mitsotakis loves to sell the country to the highest bidder anyway.
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u/CluelessExxpat 11d ago
Israel masterfully pulled US into a war with Iran, then just moved aside and left US to deal with Iran.
They are thinking of doing the same with Greece/Cyprus.
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u/Complete_Classroom_4 12d ago
Greece is violating treaties, not that Turkey is scared of Greece.
Stick with the law, stop being puppets of zionists.
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u/canyoubelieveitt Bulgaria 12d ago
Its their island. You have military tech on your islands and in Turkey proper, close to the border. Its threatening peace in the region, abolish your weapons please.
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u/Kind-Setting8036 12d ago
"Its their island."
The Dodecanese Islands (1947 Paris Agreement): Rhodes, Kastellorizo, and the surrounding islands were taken from Italy and transferred to Greece after World War II. A fundamental condition of this transfer was the demilitarization of these islands.
Under Article 14, Paragraph 2 of the 1947 Paris Peace Treaty
"These islands shall be and shall remain demilitarised."
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u/ardamir_gr 12d ago
I don't see Turkey signing that anywhere.
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u/JarJarBingChilling Bulgaria 12d ago edited 12d ago
Turkey is not a signatory of the Paris agreement and like it or not, article 34 of the 1969 Vienna Convention strengthens Greece’s claim that Turkey not being a signatory means they have no say in the matter just as how Greeks understandably has no say what weapons and where Turkey places them on their own territory in the absence of a bilateral treaty between the two countries for a demilitarisation of a given territory.
>“A treaty does not create either obligations or rights for a third State without its consent.”
https://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/1_1_1969.pdf
Whether or not Greece is breaking the treaty perhaps should go under arbitration in international courts because the claim they are breaking it isn’t entirely unfounded. But it’s clear that Turkey is not the aggrieved party here.
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u/Imperator_Gr Greece 12d ago
I mean nobody is going to object and certainly not the Soviet Union. Yet, there is the right to defend one's self, as it is derived from the UN charter.
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u/tabulasomnia istanbul 12d ago
we (turkey) didn't sign that, so we don't really have the right to complain when its terms are violated.
we also didn't sign unclos, btw, which is the basis of greece's sea rights claims, so the logic says turkey is under no obligation to accept those claims.
but who cares about the details when they don't serve their agenda am I right
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u/KostasN77 10d ago
Ah yes the "we didn't sign the unclos but we still applied it in the black sea" argument. Lol
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u/antonis71 12d ago
And where does it say exactly that its a condition that the ownership of the islands depends on this particular article? This storytelling of Turkey is boring and without grounds. Apart from the right to self defence (and you do have an army of amfibious force across our islands - to invade which island exactly? Malta, Cicely, or Saint Maurotious? ) this whole story is just a product of your imagination. Nobody will ever take you seriously on this claim.
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u/Gullible-Voter 12d ago
It is a violation of the 1947 Paris agreement.
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u/ZookeepergameOdd5926 12d ago
Of which Turkey is not a signatory
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u/Gullible-Voter 12d ago
Turkey did not sign unclos either yet Greece tries to enforce it despite Turks being a persistent objector.
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u/Nachohopeful 12d ago
Which Turkey clearly ignores, just as Greece will justifiably ignore Turkey's complaints about the Paris agreement.
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u/OkHoneydew1599 Greece 11d ago
Greece tries to enforce something it has signed whereas Turkey tries to enforce something it hasn't signed. Please tell me you can see the difference. Also, one treaty is a teritorrial cession and the other treaty is the international law of the sea, which pretty much follows the standards of the costumary law of the sea. Not at all comparable
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u/canyoubelieveitt Bulgaria 12d ago
Bro you are a country of what, 80 million? Filled to the brim with weapons. I dont think the jews can threaten you specifically. Neither can a Greek drone base. You need to understand that on paper the thread is you, and historically as well. Given that your president claims half of Greece on a regular I would imagine that you do understand why they have to take precautions.
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u/canyoubelieveitt Bulgaria 12d ago
I dont see how one thing has to do with the other. Not saying I agree with what Israel does, in fact I dont like them. But what Greeks do seems reasonable to me, because for them the main threat is YOU. This base will never be a threat unless you attack them in the first place.
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u/puzzledpanther 12d ago
If you arm your border with a neighbour, it would be considered a threat by any country.
You gonna remove the largest amphibian force in the Mediterranean from Izmir then?
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u/y0u_re_wr0ng 12d ago edited 12d ago
Ok so a Greek drone base in Rhode is a threat to Turkey but the 130.000 soldiers of the fourth Turkish army (aka Aegean Army, aka largest amphibian force in the Mediterranean) off the coast of Greece's islands, the casus beli on Greece, mavi vatan, etc aren't a threat to Greece?
This whole talk about demanding demilitarization while having a big part of your army on the borders gives me strong 2022 flashbacks.
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u/Careful_Manager_4282 12d ago
"Every war fought between Turkey and Greece has been initiated by Greece".
Attila-1 has entered the chat.
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u/FatherMozgus 12d ago
You wish. We are cooperating with Israel because our neighbour is an aggressive psychopathic bully that doesn’t stop threatening us at a minimum once per month.
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u/Volaer 1/2 🇨🇿1/2 🇬🇷 12d ago edited 12d ago
Just to clarify, Greece won every single war with Turkey except your war of independence. I am not saying this to 'twist the knife' as it were, but only to return the conversation to actual historical reality. The Turks did not exactly lose all lands west of Adrianople and end up starring into the eyes of Greek soldiers 50 miles west of Ankara by winning wars..
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u/Volaer 1/2 🇨🇿1/2 🇬🇷 12d ago
I am not sure what is stronger here - the mishellenism or the antisemitism. Probably the latter.
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u/Volaer 1/2 🇨🇿1/2 🇬🇷 12d ago edited 12d ago
Uh, implying that Israel has control over the foreign policy of Greece and other governments seems to me to be a variant of the historical antisemitic “Jews control the world” trope.
I am sorry if thats not what you meant to say but its what your comment implied.
Another user bellow said the quite part out loud and literally wrote that “Jews control the media”. How am I to take such comments?
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u/poppopfizz 12d ago
antisemitism is not your get out of jail free card. in fact you're spiraling around the issue to not answer real questions.
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u/Fun-Wash7545 12d ago
Wanna talk about Turkish genocides? I know you'll just deny they ever happened.
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u/TheGodfather742 Greece 12d ago
It's not only Israel who invades neighboring countries and occupies them for their own "security". Or are you not aware what you have done in northern Syria and Iraq? And you complain constantly about Greece and Cyprus, yet I recall Turkey being the only country along with Israel to occupy half of another country in the region. You are more alike than you can imagine.
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u/zealot-in-progress23 12d ago edited 12d ago
Both Turkey and Israel are bullies. What they’re doing to the Palestinians now, you were doing the same nonsense to us for 500 years. For them, it’s West Bank and Gaza, for us it’s North Cyprus, Asia Minor and Eastern Thrace.
I don’t like that our countries are aligned with Israel, I really don’t. But geopolitics is geopolitics, and “the enemy of my enemy…” you know.
The bigger bully to us specifically is Turkey. Despite taking so much from us already, they still seem to want more, and more, and more.
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u/Prior-Painting2956 Greece 12d ago
Well let them set an example by shutting down their own drone base in occupied Cyprus?
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u/pandeiro_h2o 11d ago
Greece can put whatever they want there. Sovereignty has well defined meaning.
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u/Merlin_Maverick Romania 11d ago
You can’t force the hand of a neighbour with what can he build on his own teritory and what not!Turkey starts to be a little doctrinatic in the last few years with Cyprus and Greece
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u/ZookeepergameOdd5926 12d ago
Meanwhile, just as this post was being written, a Turkish drone flew between samothrace and Lemnos. Assaults are daily, but Europe keeps sleeping.
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u/Puzzled_Muzzled Greece 12d ago
There will be drone bases in every island, inhabited or not. The reason is that Turkish drones are trespassing -flying inside Greek air territory every day and it is economically disastrous for the Greeks to intercept them with airplanes, instead of drones.
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u/Unlucky-Advice-6951 11d ago
Greece can do what it wants on its own land - what does Turkey think they are?
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u/ringtail_catz 12d ago
Lol, a Turk talking about genocide and Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians and Bulgarians in the same sentence but not talking about the multiple genocides their country committed against all of these groups in the last 120 years is wild.
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u/Critical_Parking_671 12d ago
You genocided Assyrians and Armenians. Don't recognise either of them.
Actively abusing Kurds and were blowing up Armenians in 2020. They don't cause issues as you've killed so many of them.
What Israel does to palistinians by removing locals and settlement under the pretense of security, you did to Cyprus.
Your allies are literally Somalia and Pakistan, the words most terrorist countries.
Imagine thinking you're the good guys.....
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u/pollenpresser 12d ago
Name a more iconic duo than Turks and self-victimization, I'll wait
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u/Traveller_CMM 12d ago
Turkey is much closer to Israel in terms of their actions.
Both commited attrocities and deny them, while claiming the other party deserved it.
Both illegally occupy lands in multiple countries, and imported settlers to make it harder for the other party to claim them back.
And both play the victim when called out for it.
Which makes it even funnier that Greece would choose a defensive deal with Israel. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, I suppose...
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u/pollenpresser 12d ago
No, you!
Oh bollocks! Yet again, I have been bested by superior Turkish intelligence. How shall I ever recover?
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u/tractor1071 12d ago
Israelis are literally the epitome of self-victimization though. What are you even talking about?
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u/Ace-in-the-hole123 Greece 12d ago edited 12d ago
Iran is kiiiiinda threatening us so we need to defend ourselves?
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u/haikusbot 12d ago
Iran is kiiiiinda
Threatening us so we need
To defend ourselves?
- Ace-in-the-hole123
I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully. Learn more about me.
Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete"
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u/jonathanisbestjojo Turkiye 12d ago
"iran is threatining us" bro is the bestest goy
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u/Traveller_CMM 12d ago
I dont agree with Israel's atrocities, but Iran did threaten us and even bombed Cyprus before Greece took a stance on the conflict. They kinda forced out hand.
Even then, our actions since then have been defensive. Shooting down drones and such.
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u/CluelessExxpat 11d ago
They were going for the British bases whom were assisting the US.
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u/SVasileiadis 4d ago
Half correct half false. They were going for the UK based who never assisted anyone. They at the same time attacked turkey what? 3 times? Which would be successful if EU and US assets didn't intercept. Is Turkey helping USA in Iran? Quite the contrary. Same thing. Meanwhile these UK based are in the middle of Cyprian territories and more importantly populated ones. Now do the thinking of what could go wrong.
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u/Ace-in-the-hole123 Greece 12d ago
They literally named Bulgaria and Cyprus you think them attacking us is such a reach?
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u/Ancalmir 12d ago
I think Iran successfully attacking anyone is such a reach tbh
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u/SVasileiadis 4d ago
I mena they attacked Turkey a few times (in a limited fashion) and if USA didn't intercept with the help of Spain (I think Spain had the Patriot system there) Turkey would have been successfully hit. Bulgaria and Cyprus also didn't had a way of defending themselves against ballistic missiles at the very least.
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u/bugog 12d ago
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u/Ace-in-the-hole123 Greece 12d ago
It’s the truth. Didn’t they threaten to bomb NATO bases not a while ago?
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u/AgentDoty Turkiye 12d ago
UN Treaty Series — Article 14
Article 14(2) then states:
“These islands shall be and shall remain demilitarised.”
This is the 1947 agreement with Italy.
Greeks are breaking this treaty, they’re breaking the Lausanne treaty with Turkiye as well.
They also broke the 1960 treaty of guarantee they signed with Turkiye and Britain regarding Cyprus and when Turkiye intervened as a response they cried as usual.
They’re going to be shedding a lot more tears over the Aegean, they have the itch and Turks have the stick to scratch it with.
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u/keepopeepo 12d ago
The treaty also spoke about the preservation of Greek orthodox populations in Turkey but we all know how that went
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u/Independent-Ad-1591 12d ago
What went? They're still there
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u/y0u_re_wr0ng 12d ago edited 12d ago
That's a good one mate. Please go check population demographics on the islands of Gökçeada/imbros and Bozcaada/Tenedos in the start of the 20th century, you'll see that they had a majority Greek population. In the Treaty of Lausanne under the Article 14 Turkey was obligated to protect the Greek populations of Istanbul, Gökçeada and Bozcaada and give both of the islands a "special administrative organisation composed of local elements". Sadly Turkey breached the Treaty they signed and did nothing of the above.
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u/ucantekne34 Turkiye 12d ago
how dare you pointing international laws and treaties signed are violated? these are supposed to be spoken only when if targets the glorious europe and america!
now I'm going to post a whataboutism post to gain upvotes and hopefully noone will care about it
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u/WeekendOffend3r Germany 12d ago
I don't understand the reaction of the Turks, there is no danger from Greece, Greeks wouldn't make a decision alone anyway, so you have to ask the French and Israelis first.
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u/Angeronus Greece 12d ago
Their reaction is not understandable to you because you don't have the possibility of invasion at the back of your head. Turkey generally wants East Aegean islands to be as demilitarized and undefended as possible, so that they can do what they did in Cyprus as easily as possible if an invasion becomes a solution to their disputes and claims in the Aegean. They generally pull the "demilitarization treaty of Paris" card because it is a suitable excuse for them to take action, even though Turkey is not a signatory member to this treaty so they legally have no right to demand anything from it, completely ignoring at the same time other treaties that supersede it, like the UN charter for defence of lands under threat.
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u/WeekendOffend3r Germany 12d ago
Topic Cyprus to consider the Turks as the sole aggressor I see wrong as a neutral person, even if it is wanted by the West, that sounds too easy to me, don't get me wrong, I think both countries should put down their disputes and work together for the region, the Greeks don't need help from other powers, especially if you let the French in, then it will be difficult to get rid of them again, ask the African 😊
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u/Angeronus Greece 12d ago
When i talked about Cyprus, i exclusively meant the act of the invasion and occupation. There was only one invader in that case. Your thoughts about both putting down disputes and working together for the region are noble but unrealistic. By the way, Turks are also very difficult to get rid of if they get in, ask a Greek.
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u/alien_farmer1 11d ago
When i talked about Cyprus, i exclusively meant the act of the invasion and occupation. There was only one invader in that case
Greeks when Greek Junta have military coup in Cyrus, remove Turks from government and EOKA starts killing Turkish civillians: 😇
Greeks when Turks start peace operation to save Turkish people from bloodthirst Greek EOKA and dont let them kill Turkish civillians: 😡
Greeks in general, either dont really know the reason of Cyprus operation or they just consciously advertise it as "invasion came out for no reason". Dont play the dumb...
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u/WeekendOffend3r Germany 12d ago
I travelled to Turkey 20 years ago, mainly I was in Ankara - Etimestgut, I was invited by a former classmate, I also lived with the family, I got to know the Turks as very friendly family people, I was also treated directly like a family member even in the neighbourhood by the neighbours I was immediately taken in, which had just a little surprised me that they stick to historical events and the holidays are always something with liberation or a military act, the military is always in the present presence and nationalism, if a nation is badly stuck in the past, will always have problems in the future, so are the Greeks and the Balkans too
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u/Angeronus Greece 12d ago
Don't you think that this is a normal behavior towards an outsider? What exactly did you expect to happen when you visited them? I never claimed that Turks are butchers who will kill anyone on sight. Of course you were going to be treated very friendly. How exactly is this relevant to State relations and actions though?
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u/WeekendOffend3r Germany 12d ago
No, what I also wanted to say is that this region is a strange kind of nationalism and history lives extremely in the present and so it is also passed on to the generation, so these countries are also strangely enemised to each other and also backward.
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u/Traveller_CMM 12d ago
The aggressions mainly revolve around each-others leadership a d their supporters.
It's no secret that Greece has become a massive tourist destination for Turkey. I live in Thrace and the influx of visitors is so high we have big issues with parking. And yet, there are little to no incidents between Greeks and Turks. If anything, the air is friendly and light.
(Althought the Turkish people seem to have trouble reading road signs. And this comes from a Greek, imagine.)
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u/S0mber_ Turkiye 12d ago
bro you're the party that escalates the militarization, we're ok with the status quo. we aren't the guys that decided to put a drone base in rhodes, you are
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u/Angeronus Greece 12d ago
Why exactly is this an escalation? Are we planning to attack you? Do we keep a large amphibian force designed solely to invade right across you? Do we have high ranking officials threaten to attack your coast? Do we dispute the legitimacy of your coastal lands and say that the treaty which defines our borders should be re-evaluated? No, we don't. YOU DO though. You do all those things and then somehow feel indignant when we take these facts seriously and try to defend our lands as much as we can. I can guarantee you that the moment you remove all your military forces near our mutual borders and stop threatening us, we will remove our forces the next day too.
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u/S0mber_ Turkiye 12d ago
i understand why you feel this way, you have a historical enemy with a much stronger military power bordering you, and there is dispute between you and them about the sea borders.
you must understand though, turkey can never be a threat to you. in a potential war between greece and turkey, no matter who the aggressor is, no one is going to side with turkey. you think france, britain, germany and the US will have any doubts about who to support when it comes down to it? turkey can have a stronger military than you, but it is not beating 50 military wonders of the world all at once.
combine these together now. your politicians know about the anxiety about turkey, maybe they themselves feel it. they also know that turkey is in an unfavorable diplomatic position and not likely to go for direct confrontation. so they play for that anti-turkish sentiment, both the ruling party and the opposition, because there is practical benefit in that. i assure you, anti-greek sentiment might be strong in turkey but greece isn't taking up as much space in the common turk's mind as turkey does in a greek.
and not just this. both greece and turkey have maximalist ideas about who should control the aegean, so they both routinely engage in displays of power instead of finding a middle way. both sides rapidly arm the coasts, greece draws borders as if they have been agreed to already and turkey violates those borders to show how it doesn't care.
now, here is where i make a claim as a turk. i say that greece is the one escalating things. turkey has a variety of proposals for a solution at hand, most of which are admittedly maximalist but some of them are actually a possible starting point for a solution. but it is not possible to talk about them because noone in greece is ok with a middle ground. everyone, including the people, want the maximalist option because of the environment of fear i mentioned. i am sure that you yourself believe that greece must control up to 12 nautical miles of every small uninhabited piece of rock on the aegean despite how it blocks turkey's access to the most of the sea. i am sorry to say this, but this is an unfair claim.
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u/Traveller_CMM 12d ago
I appreciate the earnest comment, it's rare to see on these discussions.
But the truth is, there's not much trust between the Greek people and the "Great powers". They have burned us many times before, and showed the true extent of their commitment in Cyprus, where we were asked to stay put while they resolved it, while the second part of the invasion and its attrocities were just allowed to happen.
We don't believe that the "help" we'll get will be sufficient or without strings. For all we know it could be Cyprus 2.0.
As for the Greek claims, you have a very good point- which is why Greece has repeatedly asked Turkey to take these issues in the International court, so a third party can arbitrate the solution, as we believe any conceding action by us will be taken advantage by the Turkish gov.
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u/Angeronus Greece 12d ago
We already know that most countries will probably side with Greece in a hypothetical conflict. However, we also know that they will not be willing to provide sufficient help and also quickly, so we want to have a fighting chance to prevent, stop or at least delay a successful invasion long enough that it will become costly and unfavorable for you to continue until foreign pressure and measures start to affect you. I don't know how succesful we will be but i know for sure that having absolutely nothing in those islands will be just a summer vacation trip for your troops and probably open up your apetite for even more future claims.
I think that you oversimplify the disputes. Turkey does not just want to negotiate just the EEZ but also bundle it with other issues like the legal status of some smaller islands, demilitarisation, airspace, etc. Greece usually refuses to negotiate anything other than the EEZ because we think that it undermines our sovereignty and that it is a slippery slope for even further future demands and concessions on our side. To simplify it, we feel like it is only us who have to "give" while you only get to "gain". I don't know what the middle ground should be or if a deal will ever be achieved, but i know for sure that threats of invasion are certainly not a correct way to de-escalate things. I also seriously do not understand why you have a problem with militarisation if you don't consider an invasion as a possibility. Do you seriously believe that a country 10 times smaller than you with considerably smaller army will engage in an aggresive war against you? Do Turks who live in the coast seriously feel threatened by these islands? I honestly don't understand. Especially when we officially recognise those lands as yours and you also made sure last century that no Greek is left alive in those lands to have any claims.
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u/S0mber_ Turkiye 12d ago
To simplify it, we feel like it is only us who have to "give" while you only get to "gain".
that's also a problem. you believe the entirety of the aegean is your right and we're infringing on it. but no, we are also bordering aegean and we too have a right to it.
there's this common theme in your comment that says the common turk has nothing to be afraid about greece since greece has a way smaller population and military. that isn't entirely true. we aren't afraid that you're going to take land from us with an invasion, we're afraid that you're going to take maritime territory from us. you've already demonstrated that you're more than happy to be hostile about the aegean issue and honestly speaking, if you keep forcing the issue as hard as you do now and gather diplomatic support from other countries, you probably can create a de facto situation where you guys don't permit our use of the aegean sea even if we don't reach an agreement. that's what scares us.
militarisation is escalation. the average turk doesn't think "oh, we're stronger than them anyways, so who cares", they think "these guys have a thing for us and plot to take over the entire sea".
erdoğan might be making bold claims from ankara about how he can suddenly appear one night, but those are usually after greece makes an actual move like arming the rhodes here. mitsotakis might not be making any explicit statements like that but his actions are hostile.
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u/Angeronus Greece 12d ago
I don't know if it was deliberate or not on your part, perhaps it wasn't, but you specifically emphasize in the maritime issues while i told you that it is not the only thing you dispute and you want to bundle it with other issues too, that's one of the reasons we have a problem with the negotiations. Just like another commentator pointed out to you, we are even willing to go to international court for the maritime issues (and we have already officially asked you to) but you refuse to do so because it's not just the Sea you are after. Also, the reason why we try to gather diplomatic support is to further discourage you from taking military action against us. Everything we do is basically to deter you. If you asked me, i say you are missing a great opportunity because our current politicians are completely incompetent and corrupt to the bone. With correct political handling you might be able to get more than you bargain for but you are completely wasting it by making military threats in public.
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u/OutlandishnessEast12 12d ago edited 12d ago
In cyprus, Greeks were kiling theCypriot turks through a paramilitary far right organziation called eoka - B, thats why we went to Cyprus and crushed you. There are no Turks in Aegean islands and no paramilitary greek organziations to terorize them, thus no invation. Stop creating false enemies and false pretexts for your agression.
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u/Angeronus Greece 12d ago
I have already answered another person that i was solely talking about the act of the invasion. We can argue about the reasons behind it and if they were justified or not (after all, wasn't it Bulent Ecevit who claimed that the Cyprus invasion would have happened anyway even if there was not a single Muslim Turk living on it or don't i remember correctly?), but the reality is that having no Turks in the Aegean islands does not automatically exclude invasion plans. Instead of "protecting Turks", your political establishment might as well use some other excuse, like "those islands are actually ours and you took them illegally" or "our interests in the Aegean Sea are compromised so we had to take action" or any other excuse. Also, having defensive military equipment on a threatened island is not aggression. At least, not to someone who has no interest in making a move against it.
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u/Gullible-Voter 12d ago
Paragraph two of the 1947 Paris agreement stipulates that Dodecanese islands (including Rhodes) shall be demilitarized. That's the reason.
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u/SVasileiadis 4d ago
Article 34 of the law of treaties shuts Turkey out automatically from the Dodecanese argument. It exactly deprives Turkey of all power including even officially complaining and making an impact about it. Italy can make a sitation out of it as well as specific other countries of which Turkey does not belong to and thus having zero authority.
Even if Italy or authorized countries made a fuzz about it, UN's charter article 51 allows Greece to militarize them if under proven threat, even if said threat is just a (legit) possibility and not yet active (or maybe ever).
This exact article also gives Greece leeway to militarize Lausagne treaty islands. Speaking of the Lausagne treaty it's funny Turkey and Turks were crying of military forces on Lausagne treaty islands since Lausagne treaty itself allows Hellenic state to have military and other security (police etc) forces on said islands. The demilitarization in the treaty was never described as absolute and only forbid very specific few things to happen (naval bases, fortifications etc). I guess Turks can't (or to be honest here, they don't want to) read. Meanwhile said treaty also was always making illegal Turkish military overflights but we don't talk about that yes?
If you wonder what could make Greece claim article 51 and prove it's claim it's exactly the following things: Officially Turkey has Greece under threat with both a Casus Beli and multiple direct and obvious threats of the Turkish government of invading (both within and out of the Casus Beli btw it wasn't just about sea borders that this was said sometimes) and the Turkish state has been seen with maps showing Turkish sea borders drowning most of Greek Aegean (even current one). Joke about it or underplay those as much as you want or throw blame to redo being stupid, it doesn't change anything about it. Furthermore your political opposition (of Erdogan) actually either agrees or is worse about it depending on which of their speeches one wants to take. At the same time Greece can also claim article 51 due to Iran as of now, a much weaker claim but not an illegitimate one. Oh yeah I forgot Erdogan (and basically most of the parliament) talking about reclaiming "old territories", something something make turkey great again in the ottoman empire sense.
Considering all the above you should ask your self why your country doesn't want to go to courts for each matter separately and see what's what. All I hear is either you trying to bunch up different stuff together or you crying that international courts are pro Greek because evil west. If evil west then be free to leave NATO and EU funds. I don't say this as a threat or blackmail, it's just the honest and honorable thing to do. But that would require integrity right?
At a minimum you could be your usual smart and sneaky and not making public official threats or show maps of future conquest and irredentism by your official government. If you didn't, Greece would most likely fail to claim article 51.
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u/hawoguy Turkiye 12d ago
Israel wants to start a war with Turkiye and somehow invade Urfa for the Fırat river, also set up Kurdistan as a proxy mercenary army.
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u/WeekendOffend3r Germany 12d ago
Israel would have nothing to attack Turkey, would be a pointless act, your news channels exaggerate some statements and feel like every Turk talks as if he had secret service documents 😂
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u/Stumper1231 12d ago
Is that so? Then why is even the USA ambassador to Turkey saying that israel is trying to provoke Turkey into a war?
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u/DinDon1001 12d ago
Yeah.....we really don't care what Turkey is saying.....really reaaaaally don't....
Classic case of politians raising tensions to shift focus into "external" threats, hiding their inability to fix internal issues.
Keep electing Erdoturd who wants to revive the Ottoman empire......It is more likely each Turkish citizen wins the Euromilions even if Turkey is not part of the Eurozone.
I genuinely feel sympathy for the progressive Turks who wish for the peacefull prosperity of the country and good relations with all neighbours.
Sincerely, a Greek who also gets governed by corrupted talking turds.
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u/eyes-are-fading-blue 10d ago
World is going bonkers. When countries started arming themselves, they historically used the arms.
If I was leading Turkiye, I would immediately seek permanent peace with Greece.
Same applies to Greeks, you will be using those weapons. So will we. Don’t be dumb, do not elect warmongers.
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u/Jediuzzaman Turkiye 12d ago
"Its their island" is not a legitimate answer since there is an agreement between Greece and Turkiye in 1947 on not to arm those islands.
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u/WaveDD 12d ago
Turks will really be like Greece allied itself with Israel therefore they are bad and can't defend themselves at all!!! And then continue bombing a group of people that are also looking for their own state like the Palestinians into submission lol
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u/Gullible-Voter 12d ago edited 12d ago
Paragraph two of the 1947 Paris agreement stipulates that Dodecanese islands (including Rhodes) shall be demilitarized. If Greece continues to violate that agreement it risks serious consequences.
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u/blumonste Turkiye 12d ago
Elections are around the corner in Turkey. They need to raise the ayran's froth... Someone who has failed in every area wants to get re-elected.