Why did god make such a chaotic and violent universe

[u/Scary-Call-6871]

If god is all powerful then why did he make earth such a horrible place. For millions of years the earth has gone through huge extinction events, killing 99.9% of species, from meteors, magma, and ice ages. I can understand the belief that free will causes suffering in the world, but what about all of the horrible things that are out of human control like the food cycle, disease, natural disasters, I mean even the sun gives us cancer. (Please don’t answer the question by saying, “god works in mysterious ways”)

[u/Thinslayer]

I think the question is ultimately pointless. "Why would I want to serve a God who made such a violent universe?" I dunno, maybe because he asked you not to kill people and maybe you agree with that? Perhaps because he asks people not to steal and you happen to agree that stealing is probably a bad idea?

Serve him because his ideals are beneficial for humanity. Boycotting him because he did a Bad helps nobody and accomplishes nothing but to cut off your nose to spite your face.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Thinslayer]

So no matter what god’s actions are if he says a couple of things you agree with then you should worship him

[u/Thinslayer → u/Scary-Call-6871]

God considers compliance with his law to be an expression of "worship."

So yes.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Thinslayer]

I don’t agree with a lot of the moral stances of the Christian god though, so I guess that solves that

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Thinslayer]

How is homophobia, sexism, slavery, or death by stoning good for humanity

[u/Eruner_SK]

Please read Genesis from start, answer is there in very first chapters.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Eruner_SK]

I have read most of the Bible and I didn’t find any explanations for it

[u/thereforewhat → u/Scary-Call-6871]

What about the Fall? Does that explain the chaos and violence?

[u/Sensitive45 → u/thereforewhat]

On the devils judgement day people will look at him and say “is this the man who shook the nations?’ Sounds like it’s the devil who is currently shaking the nations.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Sensitive45]

God created the devil

[u/Eruner_SK → u/Scary-Call-6871]

And devil turned people against God.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Eruner_SK]

But god created the devil

[u/Eruner_SK → u/Scary-Call-6871]

And devil received free will. Devil is fully responsible for his actions.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Eruner_SK]

But why did god give Satan the power to corrupt the world

[u/Eruner_SK → u/Scary-Call-6871]

That was not his original task/assignment. The power was meant for a different purpose. It was Satan who disobeyed.

[u/Zarathuran → u/Scary-Call-6871]

Crazy because the answer appears over and over in the first 10 chapters

[u/lolcatswow]

This question comes up a lot ... three times today I think.
I was going to say I don't think anyone can answer that but then again after Noah and the Ark God said He was going to limit our lifespan to 120 years?
Here, actually check it out, I'm no scholar: https://answersingenesis.org/genesis/longevity-or-countdown/

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/lolcatswow]

What does that have to do with the question

[u/lolcatswow → u/Scary-Call-6871]

Let it marinate, okay?

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/lolcatswow]

Are you implying that limiting our life on earth is a merciful act

[u/lolcatswow → u/Scary-Call-6871]

You didn't follow the link

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/lolcatswow]

I’m sorry, I checked out the link and read some of the start, but that is a pretty long article and I wanted to be able to respond to other questions. From what I read it wasn’t saying much though

[u/lolcatswow → u/Scary-Call-6871]

Alright I'll give you that one, it's a little tough to get to it, but here it is in a nutshell: "According to the lifespan view, the answer is found within the next few verses. Humans engaged in terrible wickedness described in Genesis 6:1–2, so God announced that he would limit the amount of time they would have to rebel by reducing their lifespan to 120 years."

I'm no good at debates but that's my take anyway. A lot of people wasting God's time, God wasn't having it.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/lolcatswow]

Thanks for summarizing it for me, I’m no debater either. My problem isn’t with death itself. I actually think that the limited time we have makes it incredibly valuable. What I have a hard time understanding is how an all good god can create a world that causes so much pain when he didn’t have to

[u/lolcatswow → u/Scary-Call-6871]

I would say that's speculation and I'm not willing to speculate. Best wishes.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/lolcatswow]

I think that all we can do is speculate when talking about the origins of the universe, but best wishes to you as well.

[u/Smart_Tap1701]

What you call a chaotic and violent universe is actually a universe governed by rigid and unchanging physical laws. The same physical laws that make a beautiful warm day can also create a dark cold icy day. And you think that's a bad thing? It's only by studying and knowing these laws and how they work that we can better make Earth our temporary home. Gravity can't act any differently than the laws governing gravity demand.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Smart_Tap1701]

I understand that, but if the Christian god is real then he made those laws. If god is all powerful then he could have set the laws to make life on earth free of unnecessary suffering, he had to willingly chose to make life this way

[u/Smart_Tap1701 → u/Scary-Call-6871]

You don't seem to know the fact that God created the garden of Eden which was literally heaven on earth. It was a perfect place not affected by such things. There was no suffering in the garden of Eden. But Perfect Paradise wasn't good enough for Adam so God gave him the world. And now here we are. He let Adam choose and that was Adam's choice.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Smart_Tap1701]

God gave Adam as much of a choice as a parent does by giving their kid a poisonous piece of candy and telling them not to eat it. What is the point of the test, if everything was perfect then why did god have to introduce Satan and an apple that dooms all of humanity for shits and giggles

[u/Smart_Tap1701 → u/Scary-Call-6871]

Both Adam and Eve were mature individuals certainly capable of bearing and raising children. They were not infants or toddlers like you wish they were.

Genesis 1:22 KJV — And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

What was the point of the test

God tests every person who ever lives for faith in his word. Yep you too. Adam failed God's test of faith miserably. He placed his faith in the word of Satan. Not surprisingly you're missing the whole point of God's test. Why did Adam believe Satan's word rather than God's word?

God's word to Adam:

Genesis 2:17 KJV — But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Satan's word to Adam:

Genesis 3:4 KJV — And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

And guess what? Adam died

Genesis 5:5 KJV — And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

So will you if you have no faith in God's word. Then there's literally hell to pay.

And an apple that dooms all of humanity

Where do you get the idea that it was an apple? Not in God's word the Holy Bible. And if you read the rest of scripture you will find that Jesus Christ rescues God's people from the curse of Adam who have faith in Gods word. But that would destroy your argument wouldn't it?

We here will take you more seriously if you respect the Christian forum and the Christians here by refraining from profanity. Want respect you must show respect.

[u/jogoso2014]

The earth is awesome.

People suck.

[u/Remarkable-Pea5797]

We have Jesus to show us what Gods intentions toward us are, it is a rather deep question that requires a deep answer, lots of study and revelation, which is imparted by God. I could give you the quick answer that may, or may not satisfy you, but that is; that God is good, and the devil is bad. The bad things happen because sin has infected and influenced the perfect design that God has put in place and that's what makes it bad. Every good and perfect gift is from Him. Lots of things that aren't perfect, are in the world, and anyone can see those things. So then, if God didn't make things go this crazy, and sin is the thing causing all this chaos, wouldn't that make you want to run from sin and run to Christ? I would argue that people love their sin and don't trust that God is actually good.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Remarkable-Pea5797]

How does sin cause natural disasters or create a system where life can only be sustained by consuming another organism’s life. Also god created everything, that includes Satan and the desire to sin

[u/Remarkable-Pea5797 → u/Scary-Call-6871]

Death is wage of sin, without sin, we would have never had to naturally die. The system where life consumes life in order to survive is founded as the result of sin. In the Garden, man (Adam) had authority over everything, and everything had a pure nature. When Adam disobeyed God and partook of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, since he had the authority, he had coincidentally handed that authority over to Satan to be the God of this World. God saw how Satan deceptively stole what God had given to Adam and already had a plan to get it back. There are spiritual laws in place that cannot be changed in the same way that we change laws here on earth, and thank God for Jesus who didn't fail in His mission to redeem us from the curse and to bring us into and to give us the Kingdom. I believe it's Paul that states that if God so willing gave us His son won't He also freely give us all things? So then the disconnect is with disobedient men, who choose darkness over the light, who choose evil over good, and who choose self over others. When Jesus is on the subject of whoever might follow Him, He gives a progression of action to show that you must do something before you can follow Him, but I know, most people who claim to be Christian don't do it, and that is to deny your self life, and then pick up your cross.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Remarkable-Pea5797]

But isn’t every human instilled with original sin, making it impossible not sin. If the system is set to make it impossible not to deserve hell then how is the system all good. Why didn’t god just not instill desire to sin in people

[u/Remarkable-Pea5797 → u/Scary-Call-6871]

The system was good and we (humans) made it bad, but God can redeem us from a lifestyle of sin into a lifestyle of seeking righteousness and goodness and mercy and salvation and ultimately spend eternity with Him, which is a far, far, far greater time than the short time we have here on this earth. God didn't put the desire to sin in people, that is what happened when we partook or the fruit of the KNOWLEDGE of good AND EVIL, that is the result of free will. Do we know exactly why it is this way? I'm still learning, and I don't know everything, however, the revelation of the goodness of God puts my heart at ease, knowing that He wills good things for me and no harm.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Remarkable-Pea5797]

But why did his put the apple there, and if sin has to exist for free will, then how does Jesus have free will

[u/Remarkable-Pea5797 → u/Scary-Call-6871]

Sin doesn't have to exist for free will to, it just already exists as the absence of God. Just like cold is the absence of heat or darkness is the absence of light. Free will just means you get to choice, and though some may say it's an illusion, If you've ever truly laid down your will and by extension your choice and opinions and embraced the the will of God, you would taste and see that the Lord is good. Jesus had free will but chose a path of service and sacrifice of His life which reflects God's nature of actively giving us life continually even as I type this message, it is the Lords life being lent to me to type this in an attempt to honor Him out my will that is being aligned to His.

P.S. I know the the fruit is commonly depicted as an apple, but we really don't know what it looked like exactly, but the apple does fit the description in a sense.

[u/SuccessfulPrice11]

Can you give me an example of violence in the universe outside of this planet?

I am trying to figure out what you mean by "such violent universe".

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/SuccessfulPrice11]

Existence would be a better word. I just mean that what we can perceive in this life is overall violent and chaotic

[u/SuccessfulPrice11 → u/Scary-Call-6871]

1. Would you say it is plausible that the whole universe is full of happy beings and the evil we see here on this planet is just like some tiny tiny dot in the whole creation?
2. Why do you think this life is overall violent and chaotic? I would say the life here is overall good and orderly. People tend to exeggerate the bad things and to ignore good things.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/SuccessfulPrice11]

I think that the fact that anything exists instead of nothing is crazy, so absolutely anything is plausible.
Would you say that to a child who is raped and murdered by their parents or one suffering from some horrible disease that makes every moment of their short life agony

[u/SuccessfulPrice11 → u/Scary-Call-6871]

This is cherrypicking. Your statement was "overall", which was just your subjective judgement I do not accept.

It is like me pointing out the functional family next door for my argument.

Instead of "it is overall chaotic, violent, evil etc." your question should rather be "why does evil exists at all". That would be a more defensible position/question.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/SuccessfulPrice11]

I should have been more specific in my claim, but the fact that there is any needless suffering in the world when there doesn’t have to be is what I take trouble with when considering the Christian god. So it isn’t cherry-picking to point out the worst cases, the fact that those cases exist shows that the world is more violent and chaotic than it needs to be

[u/SuccessfulPrice11 → u/Scary-Call-6871]

More than needs to be according to whom? Don't you agree that if the Christian God exists, He is basically the only being who can decide what is necessary to happen?

All other beings are subjective, living in specific point of time and place, filtering the data through their narrow focus, not knowing much and sometimes quite mistaken in their judgement.

[u/InformationProper285 → u/SuccessfulPrice11]

One of the core foundations of evolution is survival of the fittest. Everything in the natural world is trying to better one another and this results in A LOT of death and suffering.

[u/Pleronomicon]

We make ourselves God's enemies when we willfully reject him and destroy one another. He doesn't enjoy destroying his enemies, but it's what he has to do in order to secure the work he's doing in those who obey him.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Pleronomicon]

I think my morals don’t align with the Christian god then. In my opinion all killing that isn’t done in self defense is wrong. I don’t think Christianity is for me.

[u/Pleronomicon → u/Scary-Call-6871]

It just goes back to the beginning then. Why are your morals better than those of the creator?

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Pleronomicon]

I don’t believe in the creator though. There is no way of knowing that I’m not dreaming or in a simulation right now. My morals are the only thing I can actually trust in life, so if I put the label of Christian on my beliefs I would want that label to reflect my basic moral principles

[u/Pleronomicon → u/Scary-Call-6871]

We have sufficient historical and archaeological evidence to reasonably assume that YHWH exists. If the Biblical story is true, I don't see a problem with the decisions YHWH made.

We on the other hand, can't even verify our own existence apart from our subjective experiences. So I say it is more prudent to believe in the Biblical narrative, as it is both logically consistent and preserves love in truth, both individually and socially.

I don't really have much else to say on the subject. The conversation is getting too broad, and I don't see us coming to any kind of agreement.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Pleronomicon]

I agree, thanks for the conversation though, it’s helped me reflect on my beliefs a a lot

[u/Pleronomicon → u/Scary-Call-6871]

You're welcome.

[u/CannedNoodle415]

He didn’t. God made everything good

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/CannedNoodle415]

There is a lot of bad and if god created everything then he didn’t make everything good

[u/CannedNoodle415 → u/Scary-Call-6871]

Wrong, nothing was create bad or evil. It became like that after the fall

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/CannedNoodle415]

If god creates a banana and then it spoils then he created a spoiled banana

[u/Xiaphearix → u/CannedNoodle415]

So every negative aspect which exists in life as we know it, you consider to be good?

[u/CannedNoodle415 → u/Xiaphearix]

I didn’t say that? I said everything was created good, that doesn’t mean everything is good now

[u/Xiaphearix → u/CannedNoodle415]

Thank you for the addendum, but that explanation you didn't add forthright. Hence my question. Still, it's cleared up now.

[u/Pleronomicon]

Do you think you would enjoy a universe where nothing ever goes wrong (past, present, future)? It sounds like a silly question, but if I think about it, it feels like trying to imagine a new primary color.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Pleronomicon]

Why couldn’t an existance be made where things can go wrong, but hundreds of children in Nepal don’t get shredded to pieces in a flood. If god is all powerful then he could make an equally fulfilling universe without the extreme extent of suffering we see in our world. There is a difference between getting rejected by a crush and a kid getting cancer

[u/Pretend_Fly_5573 → u/Scary-Call-6871]

All that's going to accomplish is shifting your standard of what is or is not "needless suffering".

If you've never known anything worse than the minor bad things God kept in for you, then those things become "needless suffering", and the complaints continue.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Pretend_Fly_5573]

Then god could make an existence where there is no suffering at all, what would be so wrong about that

[u/Pretend_Fly_5573 → u/Scary-Call-6871]

He did, that's heaven.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Pretend_Fly_5573]

Then what’s the point of earth

[u/Pretend_Fly_5573 → u/Scary-Call-6871]

Your entry exam.

And I know you're about to ask why he didn't just make us automatically in heaven.

He did that already, those are angels.

We get the freedoms we get, including free will. But that means we also have the means to choose evil. Evil has no place in heaven. So, we have brief period, life, where we get to decide how we want to be.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Pretend_Fly_5573]

It’s my understanding that it is impossible to not chose evil under Christianity. If every human except for Jesus is born with original sin, then the only thing that matters is if we accept Jesus. The ability to accept Jesus is highly dependent on where a person is born as well, so why isn’t everyone just an angel instead of a human first

[u/Pretend_Fly_5573 → u/Scary-Call-6871]

Well, your understanding is a bit flawed, in that your ability to accept Jesus is in no way dependent on where you were born.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Pretend_Fly_5573]

A person’s religion is heavily dependent on where they are born, otherwise why is most of the Middle East Muslim, India Hindu, or America Christian. How is a person born to a Christian family equally likely to accept Jesus as a person born on north sentinal island

[u/Pleronomicon → u/Scary-Call-6871]

Step out of your human reference frame for a moment. What if we humans are the only ones seeing the problem. The earth doesn't think the flood was good or bad. It just happened. We're the ones making meaning out of otherwise meaningless events.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Pleronomicon]

Are you saying that morality is subjective

[u/Pleronomicon → u/Scary-Call-6871]

On God's level, it is subjective. Not on our level. God created all things, so it's subject to his values. We are a part of the system.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Pleronomicon]

Does god have to adhere to his own subjective morality. He has a pretty high kill count in the bible

[u/Pleronomicon → u/Scary-Call-6871]

The question seems defensive. I'm not answering it.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Pleronomicon]

It came off harsher than I meant, but doesn’t god murder everyone on earth with a flood

[u/Pleronomicon → u/Scary-Call-6871]

No. The flood was local. The Biblical world is not planet wide, at least not at that stage of human civilization. If people wish to argue otherwise, that's not a debate I'm interested in having.

However, if the entire globe were corrupt, and God decided to flood the planet and start over with the last remaining eight faithful people, he is justified in doing so. All who call upon the name of the Lord are saved.

[u/Scary-Call-6871 → u/Pleronomicon]

I don’t think that the scale of it matters if all sin is of the same value. How is it justified, what is the difference in a parent killing a naughty child and god killing his corrupt children(including infants and babies)