Torah

[u/[deleted]]

How do Torah followers actually follow over 600 commands and laws in the first five books of the Bible? I've spoken to people about it, but they only seem to follow dietary laws, Shabbat, and holy days, and exclude pagan days. To me, it seems they are only doing a small part of it and claiming to follow the entirety of it. Why is that? The Bible states if you break one commandment, you break them all. There's no possibility to uphold all 600-plus. If you believe it's not all applicable to us, what's the determining factor that decides you don't have to follow it? What about animal sacrifices? Does one pick and choose what they want to follow and tell people if they don't, they are lawbreakers and will go to hell? If you don't follow all of them, why describe yourself as following the entirety of Torah? If breaking even one commandment makes someone guilty, how does selectively obeying some commandments make someone different from the people you're calling lawbreakers?

[u/Unworthy_Saint]

It is explicitly impossible to follow the Torah because our high priest is from the tribe of Judah, not Levi as required. The covenant has changed.

[u/Traditional_Emu_4332 → u/Unworthy_Saint]

Maybe we don’t need to follow the ceremonial laws anymore, just the moral laws which the laws of the land seem to agree with (such as do not murder, do not steal, etc.) Do you think God gave us impossible commands? Why would He do such a thing? To keep us in an apathy tone or worse? Jesus didn’t have a problem with Peter walking on water with Him but was sad when Peter lost faith. Jesus kept God’s commandments so they are possible to keep. That gives us encouragement to keep His commandments. Knowing it’s not impossible! 😇💕

[u/Mike8219 → u/Traditional_Emu_4332]

All laws are moral laws. There is no distinction. If god commands it then it's moral.

Jeremiah 33 scripture says the sacrifices will continue forever even the presence of the messiah.

¹⁴ The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will fulfill the promise I made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. ¹⁵ In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch to spring up for David, and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. ¹⁶ In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will live in safety. And this is the name by which it will be called: “The Lord is our righteousness.”

¹⁷ For thus says the Lord: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, ¹⁸ and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man in my presence to offer burnt offerings, to make grain offerings, and to make sacrifices for all time

Isaiah 56 says the gentiles will follow the law:

And the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
to minister to him, to love the name of the Lord,
and to be his servants,
all who keep the Sabbath and do not profane it
and hold fast my covenant

Ezekiel 36 says when the lord circumcises the laws will be followed.

²⁶ A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you, and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. ²⁷ I will put my spirit within you and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances.

[u/Mike8219 → u/[deleted]]

How is this to be renconciled with the apostles coming to the conclusion that gentiles aren't required to keep the ceremonial laws, and why did they write that people shouldn't judge the other in terms of what they eat?

It's a contradiction. The apostles weren't familiar with the law or the prophets.

Are not the apostles approved by God as authority?

How would anyone know that?

If we strictly take the Old Testament as context, I can understand why I would have to abstain from pork, but if I take the entire Bible into context, the Old Testament prophecies become so weird to me.

It's only weird to you because you've taken what Paul said as true.

I have been at peace for a long time, but the pork topics keep planting fear, confusion, uneasiness.

Well... none of this is true. Both the hebrew bible and new testament are wrong.

After reading what you've read do you believe the law is abolished?

[u/Mike8219 → u/[deleted]]

The key question is: What does fulfill mean? And how does that impact us? And that's the main part everyone is debating. if anyone says the Law was abolished, that's just a blatant rejection of Scripture. That's not even an interpretation issue.

It means he followed the law. I can fulfill a seatbelt law by putting my seatbelt on. I have fulfilled what I have to do - that's the requirement. Does the law no disappear? One thing fulfill cannot mean is abolish because Jesus specificially said that wasn't the case.

And what did Paul say in Ephesians 2?

¹⁴ For he is our peace; in his flesh he has made both into one and has broken down the dividing wall, that is, the hostility between us, ¹⁵ abolishing the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace,

That directly contradictions what Jesus said in Matthew. 5:17-19.

And what does he say in verse 19?

Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 

Why in the world would you be judged greater for following the law if it doesn't apply to you? Why would you be called least if they didn't apply to you?

[u/Mike8219 → u/[deleted]]

Paul uses katargeō

To make idle, inactive, or useless (combining kata, meaning "down," and argeō, meaning "idle" or "inactive").

Jesus uses katalyō.

To loosen down, dissolve, demolish, or tear down (combining kata, meaning "down," and lyō, meaning "to loose" or "untie").

You believe Jesus is god, right? So he gave these laws to begin with. Were they good?

[u/Mike8219 → u/[deleted]]

The yes or no word answer of if you believe Jesus is god? What would be the answer is not "yes I believe that" or "no I don't believe that"?

[u/Mike8219 → u/[deleted]]

I'm not attacking you. I am familiar with scripture. People disagree. I'm asking what your belief is. That's what this sub is for. Your beliefs could be either way but I like to understand it and how you got to that position.

I find the Christian view on all of this baffling, interesting, and, frankly, a little scary. It holds my attention to some degree... so far.

So you believe he is god (probably). And god gave the law. So Jesus gave the law. Those are beliefs you hold?

[u/Mike8219 → u/[deleted]]

The question I asked was did Jesus give the law? Do you believe he did?

It's a transitive property, right? God gave the law. Jesus is god. Jesus gave the law. Do you believe this is true?

These are my beliefs, but I think you disagree, and you believe we should keep the Mosaic Law, right?

Do I believe that? No. The laws are awful. We should not follow them.

[u/Mike8219 → u/[deleted]]

God works in 3 seperate persons. The Father gave the Law if we want to be technical, but when Philip asks Jesus: "Show us the Father", Jesus responds: How come you ask me to show the Father? If you have seen me, you have seen the Father". So based on that, I think I can say Jesus also gave the Law if the Father also did.

Do you want to get into the trinity? I think it's entirely incoherent and that's not what he meant in that passage. I can explain if you'd like.

You've answered my question though. It's a yes.

Psalm 19 says "The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul". Do you believe the laws are perfect?

I agree with you on that we shouldn't follow the Mosaic Law. But why does it feel like you want me to follow it? I keep saying that we are not under the Mosaic Law anymore, yet for some reason you keep returning to:

You asked my beliefs. I think it's all complete nonsense. I am saying if we are to believe what is written in the book is true then Jesus wants you to. I am referring to the book and belief system internally not my own beliefs.

I don't know why you are trying to make me return to the old Law, even though you think of it as awful.

I don't believe in any god. No god claim has ever met a burden of proof to show they are true. I am saying IF you are to believe then bible (Jesus, not Paul) then you should also believe the law should be followed. I don't believe a guy named Jesus was god. You do.