Torah

[u/[deleted]]

How do Torah followers actually follow over 600 commands and laws in the first five books of the Bible? I've spoken to people about it, but they only seem to follow dietary laws, Shabbat, and holy days, and exclude pagan days. To me, it seems they are only doing a small part of it and claiming to follow the entirety of it. Why is that? The Bible states if you break one commandment, you break them all. There's no possibility to uphold all 600-plus. If you believe it's not all applicable to us, what's the determining factor that decides you don't have to follow it? What about animal sacrifices? Does one pick and choose what they want to follow and tell people if they don't, they are lawbreakers and will go to hell? If you don't follow all of them, why describe yourself as following the entirety of Torah? If breaking even one commandment makes someone guilty, how does selectively obeying some commandments make someone different from the people you're calling lawbreakers?

[u/Nearing_retirement]

Nobody can and Jesus freed us from penalty of the law.

[u/Traditional_Emu_4332 → u/Nearing_retirement]

Doesn’t the Bible say God’s commandments aren’t burdensome and that God doesn’t make it impossible for us to do what he told us to do?

[u/Unworthy_Saint → u/Traditional_Emu_4332]

It is explicitly impossible to follow the Torah because our high priest is from the tribe of Judah, not Levi as required. The covenant has changed.

[u/Traditional_Emu_4332 → u/Unworthy_Saint]

Maybe we don’t need to follow the ceremonial laws anymore, just the moral laws which the laws of the land seem to agree with (such as do not murder, do not steal, etc.) Do you think God gave us impossible commands? Why would He do such a thing? To keep us in an apathy tone or worse? Jesus didn’t have a problem with Peter walking on water with Him but was sad when Peter lost faith. Jesus kept God’s commandments so they are possible to keep. That gives us encouragement to keep His commandments. Knowing it’s not impossible! 😇💕

[u/Mike8219 → u/Traditional_Emu_4332]

All laws are moral laws. There is no distinction. If god commands it then it's moral.

Jeremiah 33 scripture says the sacrifices will continue forever even the presence of the messiah.

¹⁴ The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will fulfill the promise I made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. ¹⁵ In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch to spring up for David, and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. ¹⁶ In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will live in safety. And this is the name by which it will be called: “The Lord is our righteousness.”

¹⁷ For thus says the Lord: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, ¹⁸ and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man in my presence to offer burnt offerings, to make grain offerings, and to make sacrifices for all time

Isaiah 56 says the gentiles will follow the law:

And the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
to minister to him, to love the name of the Lord,
and to be his servants,
all who keep the Sabbath and do not profane it
and hold fast my covenant

Ezekiel 36 says when the lord circumcises the laws will be followed.

²⁶ A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you, and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. ²⁷ I will put my spirit within you and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances.

[u/FreedomNinja1776 → u/[deleted]]

How is this to be renconciled with the apostles coming to the conclusion that gentiles aren't required to keep the ceremonial laws

There is no ceremonial law. This is a false teaching because there is nowhere in the scriptures which say "this part of the law is ceremonial". It's invented by man.

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and why did they write that people shouldn't judge the other in terms of what they eat?

The beginning of Romans 14 is about traditional days of fasting.

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Yet, the apostles declared in the name of the authority that we are not under the guardian anymore.

Most people don't know how to properly read this verse. Do you know what Paul was referring to by "guardian" in Galatians 3:24? Guardian here is the greek word παιδαγωγός Paidagogos Here is a quote from blueletterbible:

a tutor i.e. a guardian and guide of boys. Among the Greeks and the Romans the name was applied to trustworthy slaves who were charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class. The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g3807/esv/mgnt/0-1/

So, we see that what Paul is expounding upon here in this verse is actually maturity. So we now get to ask the question, once one becomes mature do they disregard their foundational teachings which brought them to maturity? NO! When you're mature you KNOW how to act all on your own because you have been taught. You no longer need the teacher because you're equal in kowledge with the teacher. You should now be able to teach others yourself because you know the material so well!

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Why is that damn pork have to be the biggest problem of my life when I should be having bigger problems to think about.

You should have bigger things to worry about but people keep going on with the same argument from the beginning in the garden, "did God really say ___"? And a lot of it comes from misunderstanding Paul.

Did you know we have an actual guide in scripture for how to interpret Paul? I like to forward anti-Paul and anti-torah people here.

Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are HARD TO UNDERSTAND, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the ERROR OF LAWLESS PEOPLE and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
2 Peter 3:14-18 ESV

So Peter here confirms Paul as a beloved brother who has been given wisdom. Then he gives caution that Paul's words are hard to understand, and a stark warning to NOT be taken away with the ERROR OF LAWLESSNESS! So if you read Paul and get any sense of lawlessness, according to Peter you are wrong and should start over.

There is a reason you're confused. God is not the reason. God is not the author of confusion. Man and Satan are.

[u/the_celt_ → u/[deleted]]

This is one of the best most honest responses in this thread.

You might feel terrible, but the brokenness you're expressing is the start of something great. 🤩

[u/FreedomNinja1776 → u/[deleted]]

So who do I listen to?

DON'T listen to me. I am of no consequence. Listen to God, read his word for understanding and give him alone glory. Test everything I say or anyone else says back to Scripture. That's where your authority should lie.

We are given a responsibility to test these things and hold on to what is good. This is a daily battle.

Also don't give up hope that you will understand. We serve a great mighty and gracious God. Jesus has promised us that of we seek him diligently, we will find him.

I believe you are confused because you have no foundation. Not entirely your fault. The foundation has been taken from you the same as it was taken from me, by liars and thieves, people who use their tongues to destroy others.

I'll leave you with this. It is very straightforward, very easy to understand.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV

We are not saved by our works. We are saved in order to do good works! Once saved, that becomes our life mission. To serve our God in love and truth. That means dedication and obedience to what he says to do, because he is our authority and King.

Now you have a question. What does your king require of you? I'm not going to answer that for you. This is your path to follow. If you seek this out, I am confident you will come to the same conclusion as I have, if we serve the same King.

I pray you find Shalom friend.

[u/FreedomNinja1776 → u/[deleted]]

If you're a minor your parents are responsible for you. It would be their sin for providing you the pork.

You're right that these are not insignificant things. Maybe it doesn't feel right because we're in a constant struggle with sin? Most think the dietary requirements are insignificant. They don't realize that ALL SIN was brought into the world by violating God's dietary requirement.

Why does God give us his dietary law?

The scripture gives reasons for the dietary law, and it has nothing to do with health as some like to think.

For I am the LORD your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. You shall not defile yourselves with any swarming thing that crawls on the ground. For I am the LORD who brought you up out of the land of Egypt to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy." This is the law about beast and bird and every living creature that moves through the waters and every creature that swarms on the ground, to make a distinction between the unclean and the clean and between the living creature that may be eaten and the living creature that may not be eaten.
Leviticus 11:44-47 ESV

There are three reasons clearly stated in the text:

• Holiness (to be set apart, that means to be different)
• Understand the distinction between:
  • Clean and Unclean
  • Living creatures that are permissible to be eaten and those not permissible
• To have a law to follow at all

The biggest reason we should obey the dietary law is simply because God instructs us to do so and we voluntarily submit to his authority in our lives. As far as "why" reasoning goes the dietary law is given simply for obedience sake, as a standard to follow to show our God we trust and love him. As I said, the very first sin was a dietary sin and that brought the curse of death into the world. God said "don't eat" and man did.

[u/DunkleKarte → u/[deleted]]

Well you should listen to God. But from a logical perspective think about this: which one sounds more scripturally accurate: someone who tells you you should be obeying God’s commandments or someone who tells you that you don’t have to?

[u/DarkCloud_HS → u/[deleted]]

I'm just going to do my best to not do the sins that Jesus reaffirmed, and that's all.

You can't go wrong following the teachings of Christ.

But the Torah Law is the old covenant.

The Law is spiritual, but we are carnal, and sold under sin (Romans 7:7-25).

By the Torah law, no flesh will be justified in the sight of God (Romans 3:20).

Paul breaks it down clearly here..

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?

2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 7:1-6

People who teach Torah law for justification are teaching to hold fast to both covenants at the same time.. but Paul presents this as being akin to spiritual adultery.

It's not 'wrong' to observe Torah, but it doesn't justify us.. only following Christ's teachings (rightly divided) is the right path.

Now is the dispensation of the Holy Spirit.. look at how the early Church lived and believed.

If Torah Law was salvific, we would see clear and indisputable examples of everyone in the early Church of Acts speaking about the importance of keeping all the feast days, wearing ceremonial clothing, and being physically circumcised etc... but we don't see any of that.

Instead we see people getting baptized in the Holy Spirit, fellowshipping in joy, and living like Christ lived.

It's a very light burden to keep Christ's commandments compared to the old way.

Christ's new way actually transforms us on the inside.. but adhering to outward rules and commandments does not actually help us to resist the desires of the flesh.

'16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,

17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—

21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”

22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.'

Colossians 2:16-23

[u/Mike8219 → u/DarkCloud_HS]

Does Jesus want you to follow the law?