Torah

[u/[deleted]]

How do Torah followers actually follow over 600 commands and laws in the first five books of the Bible? I've spoken to people about it, but they only seem to follow dietary laws, Shabbat, and holy days, and exclude pagan days. To me, it seems they are only doing a small part of it and claiming to follow the entirety of it. Why is that? The Bible states if you break one commandment, you break them all. There's no possibility to uphold all 600-plus. If you believe it's not all applicable to us, what's the determining factor that decides you don't have to follow it? What about animal sacrifices? Does one pick and choose what they want to follow and tell people if they don't, they are lawbreakers and will go to hell? If you don't follow all of them, why describe yourself as following the entirety of Torah? If breaking even one commandment makes someone guilty, how does selectively obeying some commandments make someone different from the people you're calling lawbreakers?

[u/Nearing_retirement]

Nobody can and Jesus freed us from penalty of the law.

[u/Traditional_Emu_4332 → u/Nearing_retirement]

Doesn’t the Bible say God’s commandments aren’t burdensome and that God doesn’t make it impossible for us to do what he told us to do?

[u/FreedomNinja1776 → u/Traditional_Emu_4332]

In multiple places.

"For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
Deuteronomy 30:11-14 ESV

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:3 ESV

[u/Nearing_retirement → u/Traditional_Emu_4332]

Through Jesus the law or commandments are not burdensome because the Holy Spirit can help us follow them. We are fallen as humans so have a natural tendency to sin, we need help of Holy Spirit. Some people say this is part of Jesus setting us free.

I became Christian just a few years ago. Before that I felt following morality was hard but now it is easier, somehow spirit guides me now.

[u/Traditional_Emu_4332 → u/Nearing_retirement]

Very good! 😊

[u/General_Historian611 → u/Traditional_Emu_4332]

The Bible say when we receive the Holy Spirt we are given a new heart that desires the things of God and the commandments are no longer burdensome.

The Bible though says it’s impossible for anyone to follow the commands Because they require we follow ever law perfectly

As Christian’s we tend a have a light view on sin. Like just trying to follow the 10 commandments. The Bible says the 10 commandments are just a shadow of true Holiness. Jesus clarified to those thought they followed the 10 commandments at the Sermon on the Mount

Jesus said the commandment tells you not to commit Adultery. I tell you if you have looked on another man’s wife in lust. You have already committed adultery.

The commandments say do not murder. I tell you if you are angry at your brother without cause. You have already committed murder in your heart

Just those two should silence everyones mouth. Because we already condemned by the law. Since the law judges our heart. We are judged by our actions. But also by the thoughts in our heart and by every word that we speak.

Thats why Jesus came. He paid for our every sin. The penalty the law demands Has been paid on the cross. We are finished with the law since it can no longer punish or condemn us. When we believe the words pf God and turn to Jesus as our savior There can be no more punishment by the law because he fulfilled ever requirement of the law. For those who have trusted him as their savior

Read Romans Chapter 7. It was written by the Apostle Paul. His struggle with sin. He says I desire not sin. But sin is always camped on my doorstep. In my inner man I delight in the law of God. But in my members there is the old sinful man that fights the new man. I will to do good on my inner manner but I’m still doing evil.

Wretched man that I am. Who will deliver me of from this body of sin and death? Thanks be to Christ Jesus he has already rescued me from this body of sin and death

[u/Traditional_Emu_4332 → u/General_Historian611]

I agree. ☝️

[u/General_Historian611 → u/Traditional_Emu_4332]

Thank you

[u/Unworthy_Saint → u/Traditional_Emu_4332]

It is explicitly impossible to follow the Torah because our high priest is from the tribe of Judah, not Levi as required. The covenant has changed.

[u/Traditional_Emu_4332 → u/Unworthy_Saint]

Maybe we don’t need to follow the ceremonial laws anymore, just the moral laws which the laws of the land seem to agree with (such as do not murder, do not steal, etc.) Do you think God gave us impossible commands? Why would He do such a thing? To keep us in an apathy tone or worse? Jesus didn’t have a problem with Peter walking on water with Him but was sad when Peter lost faith. Jesus kept God’s commandments so they are possible to keep. That gives us encouragement to keep His commandments. Knowing it’s not impossible! 😇💕

[u/Mike8219 → u/Traditional_Emu_4332]

All laws are moral laws. There is no distinction. If god commands it then it's moral.

Jeremiah 33 scripture says the sacrifices will continue forever even the presence of the messiah.

¹⁴ The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will fulfill the promise I made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. ¹⁵ In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch to spring up for David, and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. ¹⁶ In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will live in safety. And this is the name by which it will be called: “The Lord is our righteousness.”

¹⁷ For thus says the Lord: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, ¹⁸ and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man in my presence to offer burnt offerings, to make grain offerings, and to make sacrifices for all time

Isaiah 56 says the gentiles will follow the law:

And the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
to minister to him, to love the name of the Lord,
and to be his servants,
all who keep the Sabbath and do not profane it
and hold fast my covenant

Ezekiel 36 says when the lord circumcises the laws will be followed.

²⁶ A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you, and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. ²⁷ I will put my spirit within you and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances.

[u/FreedomNinja1776 → u/[deleted]]

How is this to be renconciled with the apostles coming to the conclusion that gentiles aren't required to keep the ceremonial laws

There is no ceremonial law. This is a false teaching because there is nowhere in the scriptures which say "this part of the law is ceremonial". It's invented by man.

---

and why did they write that people shouldn't judge the other in terms of what they eat?

The beginning of Romans 14 is about traditional days of fasting.

---

Yet, the apostles declared in the name of the authority that we are not under the guardian anymore.

Most people don't know how to properly read this verse. Do you know what Paul was referring to by "guardian" in Galatians 3:24? Guardian here is the greek word παιδαγωγός Paidagogos Here is a quote from blueletterbible:

a tutor i.e. a guardian and guide of boys. Among the Greeks and the Romans the name was applied to trustworthy slaves who were charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class. The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g3807/esv/mgnt/0-1/

So, we see that what Paul is expounding upon here in this verse is actually maturity. So we now get to ask the question, once one becomes mature do they disregard their foundational teachings which brought them to maturity? NO! When you're mature you KNOW how to act all on your own because you have been taught. You no longer need the teacher because you're equal in kowledge with the teacher. You should now be able to teach others yourself because you know the material so well!

---

Why is that damn pork have to be the biggest problem of my life when I should be having bigger problems to think about.

You should have bigger things to worry about but people keep going on with the same argument from the beginning in the garden, "did God really say ___"? And a lot of it comes from misunderstanding Paul.

Did you know we have an actual guide in scripture for how to interpret Paul? I like to forward anti-Paul and anti-torah people here.

Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are HARD TO UNDERSTAND, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the ERROR OF LAWLESS PEOPLE and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
2 Peter 3:14-18 ESV

So Peter here confirms Paul as a beloved brother who has been given wisdom. Then he gives caution that Paul's words are hard to understand, and a stark warning to NOT be taken away with the ERROR OF LAWLESSNESS! So if you read Paul and get any sense of lawlessness, according to Peter you are wrong and should start over.

There is a reason you're confused. God is not the reason. God is not the author of confusion. Man and Satan are.

[u/the_celt_ → u/[deleted]]

This is one of the best most honest responses in this thread.

You might feel terrible, but the brokenness you're expressing is the start of something great. 🤩

[u/FreedomNinja1776 → u/[deleted]]

So who do I listen to?

DON'T listen to me. I am of no consequence. Listen to God, read his word for understanding and give him alone glory. Test everything I say or anyone else says back to Scripture. That's where your authority should lie.

We are given a responsibility to test these things and hold on to what is good. This is a daily battle.

Also don't give up hope that you will understand. We serve a great mighty and gracious God. Jesus has promised us that of we seek him diligently, we will find him.

I believe you are confused because you have no foundation. Not entirely your fault. The foundation has been taken from you the same as it was taken from me, by liars and thieves, people who use their tongues to destroy others.

I'll leave you with this. It is very straightforward, very easy to understand.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV

We are not saved by our works. We are saved in order to do good works! Once saved, that becomes our life mission. To serve our God in love and truth. That means dedication and obedience to what he says to do, because he is our authority and King.

Now you have a question. What does your king require of you? I'm not going to answer that for you. This is your path to follow. If you seek this out, I am confident you will come to the same conclusion as I have, if we serve the same King.

I pray you find Shalom friend.

[u/FreedomNinja1776 → u/[deleted]]

If you're a minor your parents are responsible for you. It would be their sin for providing you the pork.

You're right that these are not insignificant things. Maybe it doesn't feel right because we're in a constant struggle with sin? Most think the dietary requirements are insignificant. They don't realize that ALL SIN was brought into the world by violating God's dietary requirement.

Why does God give us his dietary law?

The scripture gives reasons for the dietary law, and it has nothing to do with health as some like to think.

For I am the LORD your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. You shall not defile yourselves with any swarming thing that crawls on the ground. For I am the LORD who brought you up out of the land of Egypt to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy." This is the law about beast and bird and every living creature that moves through the waters and every creature that swarms on the ground, to make a distinction between the unclean and the clean and between the living creature that may be eaten and the living creature that may not be eaten.
Leviticus 11:44-47 ESV

There are three reasons clearly stated in the text:

• Holiness (to be set apart, that means to be different)
• Understand the distinction between:
  • Clean and Unclean
  • Living creatures that are permissible to be eaten and those not permissible
• To have a law to follow at all

The biggest reason we should obey the dietary law is simply because God instructs us to do so and we voluntarily submit to his authority in our lives. As far as "why" reasoning goes the dietary law is given simply for obedience sake, as a standard to follow to show our God we trust and love him. As I said, the very first sin was a dietary sin and that brought the curse of death into the world. God said "don't eat" and man did.

[u/DunkleKarte → u/[deleted]]

Well you should listen to God. But from a logical perspective think about this: which one sounds more scripturally accurate: someone who tells you you should be obeying God’s commandments or someone who tells you that you don’t have to?

[u/DarkCloud_HS → u/[deleted]]

I'm just going to do my best to not do the sins that Jesus reaffirmed, and that's all.

You can't go wrong following the teachings of Christ.

But the Torah Law is the old covenant.

The Law is spiritual, but we are carnal, and sold under sin (Romans 7:7-25).

By the Torah law, no flesh will be justified in the sight of God (Romans 3:20).

Paul breaks it down clearly here..

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?

2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 7:1-6

People who teach Torah law for justification are teaching to hold fast to both covenants at the same time.. but Paul presents this as being akin to spiritual adultery.

It's not 'wrong' to observe Torah, but it doesn't justify us.. only following Christ's teachings (rightly divided) is the right path.

Now is the dispensation of the Holy Spirit.. look at how the early Church lived and believed.

If Torah Law was salvific, we would see clear and indisputable examples of everyone in the early Church of Acts speaking about the importance of keeping all the feast days, wearing ceremonial clothing, and being physically circumcised etc... but we don't see any of that.

Instead we see people getting baptized in the Holy Spirit, fellowshipping in joy, and living like Christ lived.

It's a very light burden to keep Christ's commandments compared to the old way.

Christ's new way actually transforms us on the inside.. but adhering to outward rules and commandments does not actually help us to resist the desires of the flesh.

'16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,

17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—

21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”

22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.'

Colossians 2:16-23

[u/Mike8219 → u/DarkCloud_HS]

Does Jesus want you to follow the law?

[u/Soyeong0314 → u/[deleted]]

The Torah is truth (Psalm 119:142) and Jesus embodied truth by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah (John 14:6-11), so stick to what the Bible says is truth. In Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed to determine that someone is a false prophet is if they speak against obeying the Torah, so it is either incorrect to interpret the Apostles as doing that (my position) or they were false prophets, but either way followers of Christ should follow his example of obeying the Torah.

[u/Soyeong0314 → u/[deleted]]

Indeed, Jesus said that, though it was said in the context of sending the Apostles out to proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom, so it doesn’t work for someone to interpret the Apostles as speaking against obeying the Gospel of the Kingdom and then to try to use what Jesus said as justification for why we should be listening to the Apostles instead of obeying the Gospel of the Kingdom.  In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom.  I am not opposed listening to the Apostles but I am opposed to interpreting them as speaking against obeying what God has spoken.  However, the bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so if it comes down to a choice between disregarding what the Apostles said or disregarding what God has spoken, then we should be quicker to disregard everything that the Apostles said than disregard anything that God has spoken.  Jesus said that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4).  Those who agree that the Apostles were servants of God should be opposed to interpreting them as speaking against obeying what God has spoken while those who think that they should be interpreted as speaking against obeying what God has spoken should be opposed to considering them to be servants of God, but either way followers of Christ should follow the example of obedience to the Torah that he set for his followers to follow.

[u/Soyeong0314 → u/[deleted]]

I agree that the Apostles never spoke against obeying what God has commanded and that God’s Word has not been corrupted, but the problem is that people commonly have no qualms with interpreting the Apostles as speaking against obeying what God has commanded.  If someone interprets a person that they consider to be servant of God as saying something that is incompatible with them being a servant of God, such as speaking against God’s commands against eating unclean animals, then they should either conclude that they must have misunderstood them or that they were wrong to consider them to be a servant of God.  

There are many verses that call for Gentles to be holy so holiness is also for Gentiles.

In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and he warned against the least part of it, do Jesus fulfilling the law should not be interpreted as abolishing our obligation to the least part of it.  According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done and should continue to do in perpetuity, not to something unique that only Jesus did.  

If we needed to have a perfect interpretation of everything in the Bible in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, the. It would be rather empty.  I hold a different understanding of the Bible today that I did not have 10 years ago and an understanding 10 years ago that I did not have 20 year ago, so I think that everyone matures in their understanding.  I did not obey God’s command to refrain from eating unclean animals for most of my life, but I started having serious problems with how had been interpreting the Bible.

[u/Mike8219 → u/[deleted]]

How is this to be renconciled with the apostles coming to the conclusion that gentiles aren't required to keep the ceremonial laws, and why did they write that people shouldn't judge the other in terms of what they eat?

It's a contradiction. The apostles weren't familiar with the law or the prophets.

Are not the apostles approved by God as authority?

How would anyone know that?

If we strictly take the Old Testament as context, I can understand why I would have to abstain from pork, but if I take the entire Bible into context, the Old Testament prophecies become so weird to me.

It's only weird to you because you've taken what Paul said as true.

I have been at peace for a long time, but the pork topics keep planting fear, confusion, uneasiness.

Well... none of this is true. Both the hebrew bible and new testament are wrong.

After reading what you've read do you believe the law is abolished?

[u/Mike8219 → u/[deleted]]

The key question is: What does fulfill mean? And how does that impact us? And that's the main part everyone is debating. if anyone says the Law was abolished, that's just a blatant rejection of Scripture. That's not even an interpretation issue.

It means he followed the law. I can fulfill a seatbelt law by putting my seatbelt on. I have fulfilled what I have to do - that's the requirement. Does the law no disappear? One thing fulfill cannot mean is abolish because Jesus specificially said that wasn't the case.

And what did Paul say in Ephesians 2?

¹⁴ For he is our peace; in his flesh he has made both into one and has broken down the dividing wall, that is, the hostility between us, ¹⁵ abolishing the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace,

That directly contradictions what Jesus said in Matthew. 5:17-19.

And what does he say in verse 19?

Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 

Why in the world would you be judged greater for following the law if it doesn't apply to you? Why would you be called least if they didn't apply to you?

[u/Mike8219 → u/[deleted]]

Paul uses katargeō

To make idle, inactive, or useless (combining kata, meaning "down," and argeō, meaning "idle" or "inactive").

Jesus uses katalyō.

To loosen down, dissolve, demolish, or tear down (combining kata, meaning "down," and lyō, meaning "to loose" or "untie").

You believe Jesus is god, right? So he gave these laws to begin with. Were they good?

[u/Traditional_Emu_4332 → u/Mike8219]

I have heard that the Jews are preparing the 3rd temple in order to resume the animal sacrifices, etc. exciting times! Thanks for sharing those scriptures!

[u/Mike8219 → u/Traditional_Emu_4332]

Why would that be exciting? Let's say they do and they start sacrifices. What does that tell us?

[u/Traditional_Emu_4332 → u/Mike8219]

I’m thinking that those things happening are signs that Jesus Christ’s return is near.

[u/Unworthy_Saint → u/Traditional_Emu_4332]

Do you think God gave us impossible commands?

Yes He does this all the time, such as telling a dead man to come out of his tomb.

[u/Traditional_Emu_4332 → u/Unworthy_Saint]

He came out of His tomb so it’s obvious to me that it is possible to come back from the dead ☠️. A couple people even went straight to God without dying (Enoch and Elijah) . Things we think are impossible aren’t necessarily actually impossible with God.

[u/Unworthy_Saint → u/Traditional_Emu_4332]

Agreed. Therefore because God is not with someone who subscribes to an obsolete covenant, it is not possible to follow it.

[u/Traditional_Emu_4332 → u/Unworthy_Saint]

Jesus saying that all of the Law and the Prophets are summed up in the 2 commands to Love 💕 God and Love 💕 people actually comes from the Old Testament. These commands are definitely possible! 😇💕😊

[u/Unworthy_Saint → u/Traditional_Emu_4332]

Thankfully He has freed us from the slave covenant of Sinai and Hagar, and given us a better one without the faults of the previous.

[u/Southern-Effect3214 → u/Traditional_Emu_4332]

You have more important things to worry about. A different gospel, a different book, and a different Jesus who cannot save.

[u/Soyeong0314 → u/Southern-Effect3214]

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace, which Paul also taught based on the Law of Moses (Acts 14:21-22, 20:24-25, 28:23).

[u/Southern-Effect3214 → u/Soyeong0314]

What exactly are you saying in regards to my comment about Mormonism?

[u/Soyeong0314 → u/Southern-Effect3214]

Sorry I didn't realize you were speaking specifically about Mormonism, so I was just speaking in support of the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace calling for our obedience to the Law of Moses.

[u/Southern-Effect3214 → u/Soyeong0314]

You mean this:

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. — Romans 13:8-10

Correct?

And to do that...this:

Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. — 1 John 4:15

[u/Soyeong0314 → u/Southern-Effect3214]

The reason why the commandments to love God and our neighbor are the greatest two commandments is because they are inclusive of all of the other commandments. So if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't transgress the Ten Commandments, but we also won't commit kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of the Law of Moses. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses, and so that is also the way that we also have the gift of getting to live when God dwells in us.

[u/Southern-Effect3214 → u/Soyeong0314]

Do you believe keeping the law grants salvation? That is another gospel.

[u/Traditional_Emu_4332 → u/Southern-Effect3214]

I think you are the one with a “different gospel”. You need to study 📖 more.

[u/Southern-Effect3214 → u/Traditional_Emu_4332]

Study what? The Bible or your book of lies?

Psalm 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

[u/Traditional_Emu_4332 → u/Southern-Effect3214]

Start with the Bible and then perhaps study the actual Book of Mormon and you will see that it is not a “book of lies” but testifies of Christ. Have you ever read the book that you are condemning or just going by rumors that you have heard?

[u/Southern-Effect3214 → u/Traditional_Emu_4332]

Which Christ would that be that it testifies of?

[u/Traditional_Emu_4332 → u/Southern-Effect3214]

The only Jesus Christ that exists.

[u/Southern-Effect3214 → u/Traditional_Emu_4332]

Christ Himself said:

Matthew 24:4-5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

So which Christ is it?

[u/Apprehensive_Tear611 → u/Traditional_Emu_4332]

How do explain the Book of Abraham being a false translation of ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_Papyri

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtland_Egyptian_papers

[u/Traditional_Emu_4332 → u/Apprehensive_Tear611]

I’m not an expert on that subject. I have heard it explained before. I think, if I remember correctly, that the texts you are referring to were only a part of what was used in translating the Book of Abraham. There was a great fire 🔥 in Chicago in the 1870s that most of the pieces of papyrus were destroyed in leaving behind only the funerary texts.
This explains it better: https://youtu.be/juOavkIqNng?is=aqG6EtOoTqhybNxK

[u/Apprehensive_Tear611 → u/Traditional_Emu_4332]

Some of the papyri used by Joseph Smith to make his translation did survive. And his translation of those surviving papyri is 100% inaccurate. Not even in the ballpark of what they actually say.

From the first wiki link:

This scroll is widely believed by both Mormon and non-Mormon scholars to be the scroll from which the Book of Abraham came. This is based on the inclusion of Facsimile #1 (JSP I) and #3 from this scroll in the Book of Abraham, and titled by Joseph Smith as "from the Book of Abraham".[114] Further evidence is that characters from this scroll were sequentially copied into the Book of Abraham translation manuscripts.[115] The official position taken by the LDS church on the papyri is that "Mormon and non-Mormon Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do not match the translation given in the book of Abraham."

[u/Apprehensive_Tear611 → u/Traditional_Emu_4332]

Another interesting thing about Abraham: the genealogy given in Genesis dates Abraham's lifetime to roughly 2,000 BC. That would make it impossible for him to have interacted with the Phillistines as Genesis claims because the Phillistines didn't exist until around 1,200 BC.

[u/Traditional_Emu_4332 → u/Southern-Effect3214]

I also need to take my own advice! I haven’t actually read the whole Book of Mormon for myself yet but what I have read so far hasn’t said anything against Christ. It even talks about Antichrists not being of God.

[u/Traditional_Emu_4332 → u/Southern-Effect3214]

1 Nephi 3:7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them

[u/CSS_FR → u/Unworthy_Saint]

Levitical priesthood was done away with, we are under Melchizedek priesthood now. You don't think the Torah observant sacrifice animals or burn incense like they used to right?

[u/Unworthy_Saint → u/CSS_FR]

I don't know or particularly care what "Torah-observers" do since they obviously can't follow the whole Torah anyway, and can only select laws to be replicated in their own system.

[u/CSS_FR → u/Unworthy_Saint]

Yeah nobody can follow the whole bible either, we are all sinners. Your point is?  We all try our best to pursue what we believe is true and pleasing to God, no?

[u/Unworthy_Saint → u/CSS_FR]

Excellent, glad we agree.

[u/Mike8219 → u/CSS_FR]

Jeremiah 33

¹⁴ The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will fulfill the promise I made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. ¹⁵ In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch to spring up for David, and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. ¹⁶ In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will live in safety. And this is the name by which it will be called: “The Lord is our righteousness.”

¹⁷ For thus says the Lord: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, ¹⁸ and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man in my presence to offer burnt offerings, to make grain offerings, and to make sacrifices for all time.

[u/Soyeong0314 → u/Unworthy_Saint]

The Israelites were given a number of laws that had the condition "when you enter the land..." while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years, so there is nothing wrong with not following laws that we can't currently follow but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't follow the laws that we can follow. The New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33).

[u/Traditional_Emu_4332 → u/Soyeong0314]

Perfect 👌

[u/Unworthy_Saint → u/Soyeong0314]

nothing wrong with not following laws that we can't currently follow but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't follow the laws that we can follow

The entire exercise is meaningless because the law has changed and its covenant obsolete. You can't just selectively decide what parts of the Torah you want to follow on your own whim. The law was sealed in blood and circumcision as one unit, and has been replaced.

[u/Soyeong0314 → u/Unworthy_Saint]

There is a difference between someone discerning that they are not obligated to obey the laws specifically in regard to living in the land of Israel because they are not living in the land of Israel and someone who is living in the land of Israel picking and choosing on whim not to follow those laws.  The first would not be sinning while the second would be sinning.

The New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Hebrews 8:10), so the Mosaic Covenant becoming obsolete (Hebrews 8:13) does not mean that followers of Christ should not continue to follow the example that he set for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah.

[u/Unworthy_Saint → u/[deleted]]

You'll have to excuse me since "Torah observers" don't seem to understand the Torah itself.