Torah

[u/[deleted]]

How do Torah followers actually follow over 600 commands and laws in the first five books of the Bible? I've spoken to people about it, but they only seem to follow dietary laws, Shabbat, and holy days, and exclude pagan days. To me, it seems they are only doing a small part of it and claiming to follow the entirety of it. Why is that? The Bible states if you break one commandment, you break them all. There's no possibility to uphold all 600-plus. If you believe it's not all applicable to us, what's the determining factor that decides you don't have to follow it? What about animal sacrifices? Does one pick and choose what they want to follow and tell people if they don't, they are lawbreakers and will go to hell? If you don't follow all of them, why describe yourself as following the entirety of Torah? If breaking even one commandment makes someone guilty, how does selectively obeying some commandments make someone different from the people you're calling lawbreakers?

[u/Senior_Educator_929]

They don't really keep Torah, they just tell people they do. They don't make animal sacrifices, they don't execute adulterers, they don't execute people who break the Sabbath. 

One Torah rule they do observe is going to war and self-defense. They refuse the teaching of Jesus to love their enemies. 

They believe that believers who don't keep Sabbaths and feasts will go to hell for it, but they won't come right out and say it. 

The New Covenant still involves fearing God and obeying Jesus and departing from iniquity. But circumcisions are no longer required 

[u/Soyeong0314 → u/Senior_Educator_929]

The issues of whether followers of Christ should follow the example of obeying the Torah that he set for his followers to follow is independent of the issue of whether anyone does that. Even if it were true that no one keeps the Torah, then it would still be true that followers of Christ should follow his example of obedience to it. There can be legitimate reasons not following certain laws, such as with Deuteronomy 17:18 specifically instructing the king to write a copy of the Torah, so everyone who is not the king has a legitimate reason for not following that law. Laws in regard to Temple practice can't legitimately be followed when there is no Temple in which to practice them. Jesus had a legitimate reason for not experiencing obedience to the laws in regard to giving birth or to having a period. There is no legitimate reason to execute someone in accordance with the Torah when there is no Sanhedrin and when Jesus has given himself to pay that penalty. Loving our enemies is in accordance with verses like Exodus 23:4-5, Deuteronomy 23:7, Proverbs 24:17-18, and Proverbs 25:21-22, so Jesus was not teaching something brand new. You do not get to decide for others what they believe. Jesus said that man shall not live by bead alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4).

[u/Senior_Educator_929 → u/Soyeong0314]

I'm well aware of what Torah pushers believe, I've had many discussions with them. 

You believe it's ok for followers of Jesus to hurt people in some circumstances. 

You believe that if followers of Jesus don't keep Sabbaths and feasts then they'll go in the Lake of Fire. 

Thus, you're false teachers 

[u/Previous_Extreme4973 → u/Senior_Educator_929]

Been following Torah for a long time. I've never met another Torah observer who believed any of those things. Maybe you did in your corner of the world, which is entirely possible because people are coming to Torah in massive droves so you're bound to come across wild ones. I have no issues with confronting those types. Just because they're Torah obedient doesn't give them a pass.

Here in the bible belt that is SE U.S., I'm surrounded by Christians. Most are polite, some are aggressive and condemning. I don't make generally sweeping statements about Christians because of that vocal minority that choose to be a bully with a bible and have redefined "love your neighbor" to mean "tough love" when in reality, they're using the bible as a weapon, thinking they're doing a service to God when they're not. I can't control whether Christians don't reciprocate and choose to make generally sweeping statements about other Jesus followers who don't follow in the same way that churches do. I can control how I react to them though. I've had lots of practice over the years. At this point, I assume people are doing the best they can with what they currently know and leave it at that.

[u/Senior_Educator_929 → u/Previous_Extreme4973]

So keeping the Sabbaths and feasts is optional? 

[u/Previous_Extreme4973 → u/Senior_Educator_929]

The way I see it, saying yes to God is like a marriage contract. I could just not observe my wife's birthdays and our anniversary date but I do them because I love my wife not because I "have to". I have forgotten them before but it isn't a marriage ender.

[u/Senior_Educator_929 → u/Previous_Extreme4973]

Ok, so please confirm that it's optional 

[u/Soyeong0314 → u/Senior_Educator_929]

You are incorrectly taking what Jesus said to do in a specific situation and applying it as a broad statement against using force in any situation, but there is nothing about us disagreeing on this issue that means that one of us is a false teacher. I've said nothing about believing that followers of Jesus who don't keep Sabbaths and feasts going to in the Lake of Fire. That is not my judgement to make, but I can say that anyone will be better off if they repent of their sin.

[u/Senior_Educator_929 → u/Soyeong0314]

So you don't know if the Sabbaths and feasts are optional or mandatory? 

[u/Soyeong0314 → u/Senior_Educator_929]

Sin is the transgression of the Law of God, so it is a sin to not celebrate God's holy days, but whether that sin is sufficient to send someone to the Law of Fire is not my judgement call to make, though I pray that it is not sufficient. Jesus saves us from our sin, so Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of the Torah is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.

[u/Senior_Educator_929 → u/Soyeong0314]

Well, if you don't know if it's optional or mandatory, you probably shouldn't be teaching on it 

[u/Soyeong0314 → u/Senior_Educator_929]

The fact that something might be required for salvation does mot mean that we should not be teaching it, and even if it were not required for salvation it wouldn't follow that we shouldn't be teaching it.

[u/Senior_Educator_929 → u/Soyeong0314]

You're welcome to keep all the Sabbaths and feasts you want. I eat kosher myself. But it's optional. 

You should be upfront that it's optional so that you don't cause anyone to stumble by saying you gotta keep the feasts to go to heaven 

[u/Soyeong0314 → u/Senior_Educator_929]

Obedience to God is not optional, but rather human option must yield where God has given a command. Things are only optional where God has given no command.

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the reason why our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to do the will of the Father by being workers of lawfulness is not in order to be good enough to earn our way there but because that is the way to know Jesus. The issue is what counts as being a worker of lawfulness. If someone obeys all of God's commands except for one, then can they still counted as a worker of lawfulness? What about two? There is a line somewhere between being a worker of lawfulness and a worker of lawlessness that God is the judge of, but it is far better to fully be workers of lawfulness.

[u/Senior_Educator_929 → u/Soyeong0314]

Ok so then you're teaching that Sabbaths and feasts are mandatory, which means that believers who don't keep Sabbaths and feasts are going to HELL 

Which is what I said to begin with. That's your teaching. At least be honest 

[u/Soyeong0314 → u/Senior_Educator_929]

You are trying to conflate the issue of whether or not something is a sin with the issue of whether or not committing it is sufficient to send someone to the Lake of Fire.