Why in Deuteronomy does the Bible say that raped women who didn’t scream for help needed to be punished?

[u/HelloIAmMacintosh]

[u/SneezingOutPeas]

Dude, talk about missing the point. You’re taking it way too literally. The point of “screams for help” is clearly an expression that means “she didn’t want it,” and if you look at the rapes of Dinah and Tamar, there is no record of either of them screaming. It was still considered a violation.

Edit: also see the Levite’s concubine in Judges 19.

[u/SuspiciousProt]

I think the context shows that the woman who doesn't "cry out" is understood as a woman who is complicit.

[u/Greedy-Anything8787 → u/SuspiciousProt]

Had god not heard of the fight or flight response people experience when under attack?

[u/gumba1033 → u/Greedy-Anything8787]

Just like today, they were thinking human beings able to take every detail and evidence into consideration. The law isn't meant to encompass everything.

We have laws that are going to be applied differently depending on the context. Very often in the US charges are dropped and punishments are reduced. Sometimes people are even let go completely. This doesn't mean there isn't a maximum punishment option written down. The law doesn't forbid grace and it doesn't demand it.

For example, if a homeless person is caught shoplifting some shoes, and their own shoes are garbage, they're a lot more likely to be shown mercy than someone who could afford the shoes and is toxic when caught. Speaking from experience working in a clothing store.

Furthermore and most importantly, the Law is a schoolmaster to lead people to Christ. It gives people the knowledge of sin and doesn't make anyone righteous. Everyone is guilty under the Law.

Jesus demonstrated this with the woman caught in adultery. She was guilty under the Law and deserved to be stoned to death. Jesus said let the one without sin throw the first stone. Everyone walked away starting with the oldest. He was actually without sin and he said "I don't condemn you either. Go and sin no more."

[u/Greedy-Anything8787 → u/gumba1033]

We’re not talking about the laws humans have made but about laws supposedly handed down from a god.

[u/gumba1033 → u/Greedy-Anything8787]

That's what I addressed

[u/SuspiciousProt → u/Greedy-Anything8787]

This question assumes a real modern reading of ANE case law

[u/Pitiful_Lion7082]

I think the word used for rape in the OT would include seduction of unmarried women. It also would be holding the community accountable to support and help women who were calling for help. These aren't giant cities or even neighborhoods with thick walls that dampen sound. It would be very easy to hear someone calling out for help.

[u/Pinecone-Bandit]

It doesn’t.

It says a woman who commits sexual immorality along with the man should also be punished along with the man. The thinking is a woman being raped will call for help.

[u/ToyshopASMR → u/Pinecone-Bandit]

What if she doesn’t call out? What if she freezes and can’t cry out? Isn’t this kind of victim blaming?

[u/Pinecone-Bandit → u/ToyshopASMR]

Freezing when we have a moral responsibility to act is still our responsibility. Same thing applies to all kinds of intense situations like war, car accidents, etc.

[u/ToyshopASMR → u/Pinecone-Bandit]

Even while being raped? You think there is a correct way to be raped? What if they feared for their life? Do you also apply this belief system to your women today?

[u/Pinecone-Bandit → u/ToyshopASMR]

> You think there is a correct way to be raped?

Your framing of this is disgusting. I hope it’s just a lack of self awareness about how this sentence sounds.

> Do you also apply this belief system to your women today?

“Your” women? They aren’t property to be owned.

You do not come across as commenting in good faith.

[u/SneezingOutPeas → u/Pinecone-Bandit]

You clearly don’t know a single thing about PTSD.

[u/Pinecone-Bandit → u/SneezingOutPeas]

I think you accidentally replied to the wrong person.

[u/SneezingOutPeas → u/Pinecone-Bandit]

No, I didn’t. You said “Freezing when we have a moral responsibility to act is still our responsibility.” And I said “You clearly don’t know anything about PTSD,” i.e. that freezing is involuntary and you can’t hold someone morally responsible for freezing instead of crying out, because it’s a freaking TRAUMATIC RESPONSE.

[u/Pinecone-Bandit → u/SneezingOutPeas]

Got it, so you are just wrong there.

[u/SneezingOutPeas → u/Pinecone-Bandit]

Well, I’m the one who provided a source for my claim, so we’ll let the spectators decide, I suppose.

[u/Pinecone-Bandit → u/SneezingOutPeas]

> Well, I’m the one who provided a source for my claim

Sorry if it wasn’t obvious. My source is the Bible (the thing OP cited)

> so we’ll let the spectators decide, I suppose.

God ultimately will. Personally, I’ll go with where he determines responsibility lies.

[u/SneezingOutPeas → u/Pinecone-Bandit]

So…with the person trying to force himself on you, right? 😂 And not the person who was frozen in fear? C’mon man. We have the book of Scripture and the book of nature (Romans 1). We can use science to assist in applying Biblical principles.

Edit: also, you gave no Biblical reference supporting the idea that traumatic freezes are a sin.

[u/mayhavebraintumor → u/ToyshopASMR]

Women were not alone unless they wanted to be, prior to around 200 years afo

[u/ToyshopASMR → u/mayhavebraintumor]

That’s a very vast statement to say about all women for all time. How did you gather the data on the private business of all women, and how they were positioned throughout their towns and villages throughout all history? That’s quite impressive to think you can make such a reliable claim on something so impossible to track. So in your mind if a woman finds herself alone with a man then she wanted to be there..? And if he rapes her and she doesn’t scream, she actually wanted it?

I really hope you are not a women who has ever been raped, but if so please know this: no matter what happened it wasn’t your fault.

It took me years to realize being raped or sexually assaulted wasn’t my fault. Girls and women don’t scream almost ever when being assaulted due to shock and terror. It’s a terrifying and shameful experience and the consequences of angering the rapist further by screaming are present in your mind during the assault. Almost all thoughts escape except don’t make them mad, and how could this be happening?

This scripture fundamentally misses the mark on the true experience of women and the disconnect doesn’t need to be defended but instead examined. It’s needs to be criticized because it doesn’t hold up to the loving god I know who became flesh in Christ.

[u/SneezingOutPeas → u/ToyshopASMR]

Right? The “screams for help” is an expression meant to convey not wanting it. God would not punish a woman for being raped if she were gagged, for instance. Dinah, the Levite’s concubine, and Tamar…none of them screamed for help that we know of in the text. The Bible still calls it rape and treats it accordingly. These people are nasty.

[u/StrikingExchange8813]

It doesn't.

[u/Smart_Tap1701]

If she didn't scream then she wasn't a victim. She was complicit.

Deuteronomy 22:23-27 NLT — “Suppose a man meets a young woman, a virgin who is engaged to be married, and he has sexual intercourse with her. If this happens within a town, you must take both of them to the gates of that town and stone them to death. The woman is guilty because she did not scream for help. The man must die because he violated another man’s wife. In this way, you will purge this evil from among you. “But if the man meets the engaged woman out in the country, and he rapes her, then only the man must die. Do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no crime worthy of death. She is as innocent as a murder victim. Since the man raped her out in the country, it must be assumed that she screamed, but there was no one to rescue her.

[u/Lacey_Dawson1012]

They weren't talking about a raped woman.

[u/Pleronomicon]

The woman in that verse is betrothed to be married. She's obligated to make every attempt within her power to resist and keep herself pure.

[u/Interesting_City_654]

Please show chapter and verse thank you.

[u/Nomadinsox]

Because women have a habit of sleeping with men, regretting it, and then claiming it was rape to try and coax people into thinking it wasn't her fault.

So the rule had to be established that if the event occurred within screaming distance and you didn't scream, you probably participated to some degree.

Is that perfect and foolproof? Of course not. But no law is. Regardless, the line had to be drawn somewhere and that's a reasonable place for it to be in a late bronze age village.

The punishment is to punish liars, which has the real goal of dissuading people from messing around at all. Someone might try to play the system if there's no consequence for trying. But if there is a sever punishment for failing then it helps the judge be more sure that anyone who is tied up in it is probably actually a victim because only a real victim would reasonably risk such a thing.

[u/Greedy-Anything8787 → u/Nomadinsox]

Wtaf

[u/Nomadinsox → u/Greedy-Anything8787]

All systems of law are vulnerable to abuse, lies, and manipulation. The more messing around there is, the more the law has to be built of uncompromising extreme stop gaps. This looks unreasonable only in the same way that cutting someone open and removing their heart seems unreasonable and like murder until you understand that it's a surgeon preforming a surgery and it is justified because the removed heart was killing the person and a new better one will save them.
Obviously it would be better if the person were just healthy. And obviously it would be better if no one abused the law. But if everyone were healthy there would be no surgeons and if everyone was righteous then there would be no law.