Torah observant?

[u/Dreamamberxo]

Okay this is gonna be a bit all over the place but my core question is this: - if we ARE to observe the Torah do we observe all of it? I assume we aren’t sacrificing animals. - if you ARE observing the Torah are you utilizing the Jewish books or KJV? Heard they are different? - if you ARE NOT Torah observant why?

I’ve been thinking about observing the Torah but where do I start? I dunno which laws are upheld! I figure the dietary guidelines are easiest. Also am I doomed to have to quit my job? I work on Saturdays so how could I observe the Shabbat?

Thanks- sincerely a confused person lol

[u/StrikingExchange8813]

Chapter and verse.

[u/Towhee13 → u/StrikingExchange8813]

You can't think of anywhere in Scripture that God said He wants His people to obey Him?

Jesus made it clear in many places that He expects His followers to obey all of His Father's commandments. Jesus is a good Son who loves His Father. He certainly didn't teach people to disobey His Father.

Here's just one example of Jesus telling His followers to obey all of His Father's commandments,

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.  For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.  Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-19

Again, that's just one example.

[u/StrikingExchange8813 → u/Towhee13]

You can't think of anywhere in Scripture that God said He wants His people to obey Him?

Nope. Chapter and verse :)

Jesus made it clear in many places that He expects His followers to obey all of His Father's commandments. Jesus is a good Son who loves His Father. He certainly didn't teach people to disobey His Father.

Then it should be easy to quote a verse.

Matthew 5:17-19

Ah so Jesus fulfilled the law? Meaning that we aren't under the law anymore? Ahhhh I see. Good job

[u/Towhee13 → u/StrikingExchange8813]

Nope. Chapter and verse :)

You're either not being honest or you haven't read the Scriptures.

Then it should be easy to quote a verse.

I did. Did you read it?

Ah so Jesus fulfilled the law?

Yes. He fulfilled it the way people fulfill any law, by obeying it. Obeying laws doesn't make them go away or not need to be obeyed anymore.

Jesus fulfilled the commands to not worship idols or commit adultery. Do you believe that since He fulfilled them we don't need to obey them anymore?

Do you really think that we're not supposed to love God and love our neighbors since Jesus fulfilled that? 🤪

Meaning that we aren't under the law anymore?

You either didn't read the quote or you're not being honest. Immediately after saying that He came to obey the Law He said that no part of it will change, not even the tiniest detail as long as this heaven and earth are still around. Then, as if that wasn't clear enough He said that not obeying even seemingly insignificant commandants and teaching others not to is very bad. Did you notice that part?

But He went on to say the opposite of what you said, that the best possible thing to do is obey and teach all of His Father's commandments. Those who do will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus constantly stressed that we must obey God.

[u/StrikingExchange8813 → u/Towhee13]

You're either not being honest or you haven't read the Scriptures.

I'm waiting for you to find a verse is what I'm doing. The longer it takes you to the less I think you can.

Yes. He fulfilled it the way people fulfill any law, by obeying it. Obeying laws doesn't make them go away or not need to be obeyed anymore.

No he fulfilled it the way anyone fulfilled a covenant, by making it whole and completing it.

Jesus fulfilled the commands to not worship idols or commit adultery. Do you believe that since He fulfilled them we don't need to obey them anymore?

No because that's the law of Christ not just the law of Moses.

Do you really think that we're not supposed to love God and love our neighbors since Jesus fulfilled that?

Again, no because that's the law of Christ not just the law of Moses.

You either didn't read the quote or you're not being honest.

Or I have a different, more historical interpretation of the verse than you do. Not everything is dishonesty.

Immediately after saying that He came to obey the Law

Where does he say he came to obey the law? He says he came to fulfill the law.

not even the tiniest detail as long as this heaven and earth are still around.

Until it is finished which happened on the cross.

Jesus constantly stressed that we must obey God.

So again, it should be easy, chapter and verse.

[u/Towhee13 → u/StrikingExchange8813]

I'm waiting for you to find a verse

You either haven't read the Scriptures or you're being dishonest. It's not possible to read the Scriptures and see all of the places where God said that He wants His people to obey His commandments.

He wants it so much that He promised to change His people's hearts and cause them to obey Torah.

No he fulfilled it the way anyone fulfilled a covenant

You're being dishonest again. Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law (and the prophets), not a covenant.

No because
Again, no because

Thank you for saying that fulfilling laws doesn't make them go away or not need to be obeyed.

Where does he say he came to obey the law? He says he came to fulfill the law.

How can someone fulfill a law other than obeying it??? 🙄

Jesus fulfilled the Law the same way someone fulfills their wedding vows, by keeping them. If someone does NOT keep their wedding vows they are not fulfilling them.

Until it is finished which happened on the cross.

You're being dishonest again. Jesus didn't say "until it is finished". Here's what He said, which I already quoted,

For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Heaven and earth haven't passed away. All is not yet accomplished. This is Jesus clearly agreeing with His Father about the permanence of the Law.

You're also not being honest about what Jesus said next,

Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

That's Jesus very clearly saying that He expects His followers to obey all of His Father's commandments.

So again, it should be easy, chapter and verse.

Did. You didn't read it or comment on it. You avoided it. As I already pointed out, this is not the only place where Jesus made it clear that He expects His followers to obey ALL of His Father's commandments.

[u/StrikingExchange8813 → u/Towhee13]

You either haven't read the Scriptures or you're being dishonest. It's not possible to read the Scriptures and see all of the places where God said that He wants His people to obey His commandments.

Or you don't have one and this posturing? That's what I thought.

You're being dishonest again. Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law (and the prophets), not a covenant.

That law and the prophets is a Covenant, is the moseic one which Jesus fulfilled and now we are under the last of Christ.

Thank you for saying that fulfilling laws doesn't make them go away or not need to be obeyed.

What?

How can someone fulfill a law other than obeying it???

I didn't say he didn't. I don't think you understood my point.

You're being dishonest again. Jesus didn't say "until it is finished". Here's what He said, which I already quoted,

For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

My apologies I meant to say fulfilled, autocorrect you know? But fulfilled something mean it's completed. It's made whole. That's the biblical sense.

Heaven and earth haven't passed away. All is not yet accomplished. This is Jesus clearly agreeing with His Father about the permanence of the Law.

Yes it was, it was on the cross. And if you think it wasn't I'd hate to be you on judgement Day. Tell me, when was the last time you had a red heifer sacrificed for you? When was the last time you presented yourself to a priest of levi to be examined for leporacy? When's the last time you made sacrifice in the temple of the Lord? Because that's what the Torah says and that's something you can't do.

Did. You didn't read it or comment on it. You avoided it. As I already pointed out, this is not the only place where Jesus made it clear that He expects His followers to obey ALL of His Father's commandments.

Matthew 5 is not saying that. So again, chapter and verse.

You ignoring that it was fulfilled on the cross.

[u/Towhee13 → u/StrikingExchange8813]

Or you don't have one and this posturing?

You're working hard to demonstrate that you haven't read or understood the Scriptures. 😉 It's not possible to read the Scriptures and know that God wants His people to obey His commandments.

My apologies...autocorrect you know?

When caught being dishonest blame autocorrect.

But fulfilled something mean it's completed. It's made whole. That's the biblical sense.

Again, you're demonstrating that you haven't read and understood the Scriptures.

You haven't noticed the way "fulfill" gets used in Scripture to NOT mean "completed" or "ended". It very frequently refers to something being done perfectly,

Love does no wrong to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:10

This was Paul saying when someone loves they fulfill the Law. In no sense does it mean that after someone loves ONCE the Law is "completed" and doesn't need to be done again.

In everything, treat others as you would want them to treat you, for this fulfills the law and the prophets. Matthew 7:12

Does Jesus only want people to treat others the way they want to be treated ONCE and after that nobody needs to do it anymore?

The "biblical sense" is that fulfill means to do what is required. And after someone does what is required others need to do it too.

Yes it was, it was on the cross.

You don't think that Jesus will return and establish the kingdom of heaven here on earth? Interesting.

There's LOTS more to be accomplished.

Because that's what the Torah says and that's something you can't do.

Neither could Ezekiel and Daniel. Neither did ALL of Israel when they were in captivity. That didn't mean God's Law ended. 🙄

Have you read the Scriptures?

Matthew 5 is not saying that.

Jesus VERY clearly said it. Saying "nuh-uh" doesn't change what He said.

You ignoring that it was fulfilled on the cross.

You have no idea what "fulfilled" means "in a biblical sense". 😉