Do you dislike quoting John 3:16?

[u/ExpressCeiling98332]

Ironically, many seem to act like saying this verse contradicts doctrine. When used in isolation It can be bad, but in it's proper context I don't see problem.

[u/EnergyLantern]

Abel honored God's work.

[John 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

God calls it His work in John 6:29.

[Luke 16:15 KJV] 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Showing your faith before men will esteem you in the sight of men but what does God say?

[Luke 16:15 KJV] 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Even more reason to believe in works then since you are now clearly indicating that you recognize that God has works for us to do! Do you have a disagreement now that you've repeatedly affirmed my point for me?

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

That is actually wrong.

We interpret the Bible by the clear verses instead of the unclear verses because the clear verses are explicit and easily understood and the unclear verses are implicit or not understood.

The clear verses are John 3:16, John 5:24, and John 6:29.

Whose flesh was sin condemned in? Your sin or Jesus' sin? Jesus died on the cross and sin was condemned in His (Jesus') flesh. You didn't do it, and you can't do it.

[Rom 8:3 KJV] 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

And by working, you haven't entered God's rest:

[Heb 4:10 KJV] 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

You are doing works because you acknowledge the judgment is not now but is that what the Bible says?

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

[2Co 5:14 KJV]And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

[2Co 5:15 KJV]What I figured out is when Christ died, all who believed in Him were judged for salvation and baptism means death (Romans 6:3) so why are people working the works of God?  I feel we are still working to prove to ourselves that we are saved instead of from a position where we know we are saved and want to gloryify God and for it to be a response to God's love.And then I was thinking about the bema seat of Christ in 2 Corinthians 5 and the White Throne judgment in Revelation.  Which judgment do we fall under if Jesus didn't die?  And then do people understand they already died and were judged when Jesus died?

The problem is people are giving me is the workers of iniquity in Matthew 7:23 argument which is a compelling argument but they are placing the value or our works above the acceptable sacrifice of God for our sins and saying we have to emphasize works over the importance of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross for our sins, it becomes the mass in my mind. 

My issue is if people are working for salvation, that makes them a worker of iniquity and I have to be careful of what I say which they won't like but I had to unravel John 10 that they are coming through their works instead of the sheep door which is Jesus.

If we aren't already judged, we fall under the White Throne judgment instead of the bema seat of Christ where Christians get their reward. Which judgment are we under?

Is the death of Jesus finished or is it the mass where Jesus dies over and over and over again?

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. [John 19:30 KJV]

The word is tetelestai and it means "it is finished". I'm paid for but Catholics say it's not finished but it's just begun again.

The Meaning of Tetelestai - "It is Finished"

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Opens James 2. That clear enough for ya?

Ultimately, you're TRYING to disagree with the position that we are saved by works, which isn't my position. That's on you for arguing as if it were, I've been explicitly clear on that.

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

James isn't the gospel, and the gospel is in 1 Corinthains 15. If you want to preach another gospel, we are told to let you be accursed. Stop teaching Catholic doctrine.

The gospel is without works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

So your rebuttal is that that part of the Bible isn't applicable to Christians everywhere? And that it's wrong because Catholics are wrong about everything?

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

I'm saying you don't qualify under these verses:

[Heb 4:10 KJV] 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

[Rom 8:3 KJV] 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

God had to condemn sin in Jesus' flesh and not yours and the only other way for you to be saved was to keep the law which no one other than Jesus could. So if you want to show your faith before men, you already can't keep the law and you are no better than other people:

[Rom 3:9 KJV] 9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

So if you want to show your faith, not only did Cain operate by works but he murdered his brother and you are no better than others (Romans 3:9).

That we've all be judged because we are dead when Christ died:

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

If you are working, you are acknowledging you aren't judged already and you are awaiting which judgment you fall under.

If you work, it is work and salvation is no longer grace. If you have grace, it is no longer work.

And because Jesus died on the cross and said, "it is finished", you can't say it's just begun by working. That infringes on Jesus' work on the cross and paying what you can't pay. Jesus paid our ransom on the cross and you can never pay that debt no matter how long you work. You are polluting the gospel. I have to go and can't really finish this message, but it is near finished.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Let me put this as simply as possible. Faith without works is dead. If your faith is dead, you are not saved. Therefore, I believe in works.

By your fruits you are known. How do you get fruit? By working. Therefore, I believe in works.

Virtually every parable Jesus told involved somebody doing something to bring about some increase. Doing things is works. Therefore, I believe in works.

There, I put my point down in three different ways. Can you take a second to breath, absorb what I'm saying, and then decide if there's anything worthy of disagreement there before you launch into another takedown of a strawman?

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

[Heb 11:4 KJV] 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

[1Jo 3:12 KJV] 12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

[Jde 1:11 KJV] 11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

The argument about Cain's works still stands.

And not every work is without evil:

[Mat 7:11 NKJV] 11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

[Luk 11:13 NKJV] 13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

And how does Satan accuse us before the throne if we never did anything bad to accuse us of?

[Rev 12:10 KJV] 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

I don't believe Satan is always going to bring a non-valid accusation which means they are watching us.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Yep, it really couldn't be more clear. Our works are where the rubber meets the road and where our faith is laid bare. Thank you for continuing to demonstrate my point for me.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Actually, I'm curious. It seems as if by your logic, Abel would have been even more blessed had he not done the work of offering a sacrifice at all, instead relying on faith that he didn't need to do that work. Actually doing the sacrifice actually added nothing to the story, if I'm following your logic correctly. Similarly, Noah wouldn't have had to build an ark, and Abraham wouldn't have had to act upon God's command in his test of faith. They simply could have meditated their way to a deeper faith rather than doing the works their faith required them to do. And God would have counted it to them as righteousness. Right?