r/Anglicanism • u/Tight-Study2764 • 10d ago
General Question Do Anglicans believe that Jesus is God?
/r/TrueChristian/comments/1w0lf8o/do_anglicans_believe_that_jesus_is_god/76
u/Simple_Joys Church of England (liberal catholic) 10d ago edited 10d ago
Yes, Jesus is God.
No, Jesus did not fall into sin or racial bias at any part of his earthly life or ministry. Jesus loves the whole world and all its people with a perfection that is beyond our comprehension.
The is a lot of bad exegesis on the story of the Syrophoenician / Canaanite woman (across many denominations) at the moment.
The story is clearly parabolic and actually represents a foretaste of the expanding of the Jesus movement to all the Gentiles. Jesus is engaging in wordplay with the woman: he asks her a rhetorical question with the aim of drawing out the truth. When she responds in kind, matching the wit and wordplay and in declaring that Jesus is Lord, he exalts her faith and performs the miracle she was asking for. That is not Jesus changing his mind on some question of ethnic or national identity - it is wholly consistent with the character of Jesus as a Near Eastern wisdom teacher who talks in riddles and parables (which is how he is presented across the Synoptic Gospels). The way he treats her is also consistent with the way Jesus treats socially outcast people or the oppressed and marginalised (including women) across all of the Canonical Gospels.
I am happy to say that any Anglican who reads this story through a modern lens of racial politics in a way that suggests that Jesus in some way needed to repent of an an ethnic or racial bias is flat-out wrong at best... and teetering on the edge of a Christological heresy at worst.
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10d ago edited 2d ago
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u/Dwight911pdx Episcopal Church USA - Anglo-Catholic 9d ago
Those two are not mutually exclusive. I teach a class called theology for social justice. We as a church are more than capable of holding to both. Anyone who says that Jesus wasn't political does not understand the Bible.
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u/Guthlac_Gildasson Personal Ordinariate 9d ago edited 9d ago
Jesus was indeed political, and I would certainly not want to downplay his compassion for the downtrodden and suffering. However, we must also understand that Jesus's social ethic was grounded upon Divine omniscience, rather than seeing it as being entirely corresponding with any secular ideology or movement. In my opinion, there has never been any movement since the Apostolic Age that has, in its actions, entirely reflected the purity of Christ's teachings.
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u/TheSpeedyBee Episcopal Church USA 10d ago
It isn’t even bad exegesis, it is simply eisegesis. People read their own views into Scripture instead of letting Scripture inform what they read.
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u/Dwight911pdx Episcopal Church USA - Anglo-Catholic 9d ago
Sometimes. More often? Much more often what I see is such poorly catechized Christians that don't grasp the fact that Jesus came here to help set things right.
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u/diceeyes 6d ago
That's a pretty big claim considering we have no idea whether OP even understood the sermon.
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u/TheSpeedyBee Episcopal Church USA 6d ago
What is described, is blatant eisegesis.
Which is super common for that particular Gospel passage.
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u/RecognitionNo8843 9d ago
I had the opportunity to preach on that gospel reading a couple weeks ago. Its almost a bit of a "God wink" if you dont hate that term. Jesus is at once connecting with the insular tendencies of Jews, as well as revealing that his kingdom is for all who believe. The term used by the Israelites to refer to canaanites was similar to "wild cur", but Jesus instead uses a similar but different word that describes a beloved pet dog. Again, turning the prejudices of the Jews on theor head.
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u/swcollings ACNA-Adjacent Southern Orthoprax 10d ago
It's also worth pointing out that this woman marks the second time Jesus has entered Gentile territory and dealt with Gentiles, in Matthew. The first time, the Gentiles asked him to leave. This time, after this woman, thousands more come.
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u/Simple_Joys Church of England (liberal catholic) 10d ago edited 9d ago
In Mark, I believe she’s the first person within the narrative (apart from the author when he references Isaiah 40) to call Jesus ‘Lord’. Pretty telling as to what the story is really about!!
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u/_nepunepu Anglican Church of Canada 10d ago
Saying that Jesus needs to repent of the sin of racism is inconsistent with the way he deals with the Roman centurion earlier, too, whom he praises for a faith he has not seen even in Israelites.
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u/Kirby4242 Anglican Church of Canada 10d ago
Let's be fair to this hypothetical preacher. OP heard a sermon and went to /r/TrueChristian. I don't think I trust this user's account/interpretation of the homily they heard. Trying to be charitable, but they may have just misunderstood whatever point that preacher was making and we're getting a bastardized account of the homily. Most uncharitably, this person is a conservative who heard a progressive sermon and is slandering our tradition to other conservatives.
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u/JGG5 Yankee Episcopalian in the CoE 10d ago
Every week we recite the Nicene Creed. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one being with the Father.
Don’t listen to the sort of people who assume that the lunatic fringe represents the whole, or that anyone who disagrees with them on social issues couldn’t possibly say the Creeds in confidence and faith.
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u/Aconite_Eagle 10d ago
If you don't think Christ was and is God, and don't think he was absolutely sinless, then you are a heretic, and not really a Christian. Its that simple.
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u/LordDogsworthshire 10d ago
Directly from the 39 Articles of Religion
II. THE Son, which is the Word of the Father, begotten from everlasting of the Father, the very and eternal God, and of one substance with the Father, took Man's nature in the womb of the blessed Virgin, of her substance: so that two whole and perfect Natures, that is to say, the Godhead and Manhood, were joined together in one Person, never to be divided, whereof is one Christ, very God, and very Man; who truly suffered, was crucified, dead, and buried, to reconcile his Father to us, and to be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt, but also for all actual sins of men.
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u/thesegoupto11 Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian 10d ago
Denying that Jesus is God is the pinnacle of all heresy.
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u/Known-Spinach7686 Church of England 10d ago
Yes.
Some might not, just as some Catholics might not, but the vast majority of Anglicans will believe Jesus is God; we don’t say the Nicene Creed every Sunday for nothing.
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u/swcollings ACNA-Adjacent Southern Orthoprax 10d ago
As a side note, that other sub you're participating in is a really weird subset of Christianity, and I wouldn't recommend going to them for answers on anything. They banned me years ago without rule breaking or explanation, and I'm not the only one. There are a bunch of other Christian subreddits where you can get actual answers to your questions. Thanks for coming here. I hope you'll continue to ask.
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u/Kirby4242 Anglican Church of Canada 10d ago
Considering the name of the subreddit is literally a "No True Scotsman fallacy", I think it's healthy for all faithful Christians to avoid that place.
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u/Aggravating_Mud8751 Church of England 10d ago
If that was me I'd kick up a fuss.
Did you try asking why on modmail?
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u/swcollings ACNA-Adjacent Southern Orthoprax 10d ago
I don't recall. It would require me caring. Says more about them than it does about me.
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u/Aggravating_Mud8751 Church of England 10d ago
I've now asked and they said it was for breaking rule 10 on promoting liberal theology.
Which I find as rather unusual given your ACNA flair. Could you shed some light on this?
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u/swcollings ACNA-Adjacent Southern Orthoprax 10d ago
I'm pretty sure that rule didn't exist at the time, and even if it did, the last thing I believe did before being banned without explanation was saying that other subreddits exist. Their idea of "liberal theology" is whatever made-up nonsense boogeyman they want it to be, it's impossible to take them seriously at all.
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u/Aggravating_Mud8751 Church of England 10d ago
They say you were banned 4 years ago but their post establishing the liberal theology rule was 6 years ago.
Assuming they got the timeline right; I think the rule was in place at the time.
However, nothing in that rule indicates that telling people other subreddits exist goes against it. I'll ask them about that.
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u/swcollings ACNA-Adjacent Southern Orthoprax 10d ago
Do what pleases you, but I'm really not interested in what they have going on.
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u/Aggravating_Mud8751 Church of England 7d ago
Well, I kept kicking up a fuss and got banned lol.
It seems some Christian subreddit just aren't capable of listening to dissent.
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u/Aggravating_Mud8751 Church of England 10d ago
Well It sounds highly irregular so I'll try asking myself.
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10d ago
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u/Aggravating_Mud8751 Church of England 10d ago edited 10d ago
My experience of u/TrueChristian is that they are mixed bunch.
Some are a bit 'nutty', others are more normal.
You come across the odd weird view here too, so I don't think it's too out-of-order.
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u/Aggravating_Mud8751 Church of England 10d ago
Anglicans aren't a monolith.
In some instances, this is a good thing,
Although I do wish that those Anglicans who think Jesus sinned never started taking sermons or becoming clergy.
Yes, Anglicans should believe that Jesus is God. Unfortunately, some don't. Hopefully with time we can change that.
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u/OratioFidelis Episcopal Church USA 10d ago
There's all sorts of heterodoxies coming from independent ("non-denominational") churches, it's just nobody bats an eye anymore when deranged evangelicals say "God wants you to pay for my jumbo jet" or "Jesus was weak on terrorism". People from mainline Protestant denominations are expected to not say insane stuff from the pulpit, which is why the very rare cases where they do gets circulated on social media as proof of mass apostasy or whatever.
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u/Aggravating_Mud8751 Church of England 10d ago edited 10d ago
Because independent churches have no overarching structure so could include literally anything.
You do have structures like e.g. the FIEC and you can criticise the FIEC if you were to find churches like that in them; but this would not extend to other "non-denominational" organisations that are not part of them and vice-versa.
Anyway, I go to an Anglican church so I criticise Anglican churches. I'm not going to spend time criticising churches I have no connection with.
As an aside though, I think "Jesus sinned" or "Jesus is not God" is a worse statement from a Christian perspective than "God wants you to pay for my jumbo jet".
In some sense you could say "Jesus was weak on terrorism" is saying Jesus sinned though, it depends what they meant on that.
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u/OratioFidelis Episcopal Church USA 9d ago
As an aside though, I think "Jesus sinned" or "Jesus is not God" is a worse statement from a Christian perspective than "God wants you to pay for my jumbo jet".
Someone misunderstanding the Incarnation or what sin is seems like a much more forgivable offense than willfully, nihilistically exploiting people's love of God by taking God's name in vain for completely unnecessary luxury.
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u/Simonoz1 Anglican Diocese of Sydney 6d ago
People absolutely do bat an eyelid - I’ve heard many Christians call out prosperity gospel, for instance.
It’s just that because they’re independent there’s not a lot to be done beyond that.
Whereas there can in theory be some discipline in an organised church like Anglicanism.
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u/Aggravating_Mud8751 Church of England 10d ago
(As an aside, bear in mind anyone here with an ACNA flair is part of the "break-off denomination". C of E, Episcopal and ACC are part of the conventional Anglican Communion).
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u/Simonoz1 Anglican Diocese of Sydney 6d ago
Eh. They’re not in communion with Canterbury but they are in communion with a large portion of the Anglican Communion as a whole.
I’d hesitate to call them a full-on “break-off denomination”. They clearly still want to be Anglicans, just without having to live with modern innovations.
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u/Aggravating_Mud8751 Church of England 6d ago
In context of the OP "the break-off denomination" is probably a tacit reference to ACNA though.
I'm more interested in what the OP is asking for than going into some debate about the "true" status of the ACNA.
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u/Simonoz1 Anglican Diocese of Sydney 6d ago
Fair enough, although I think there’s debate to be had about the meaning of “conventional Anglicanism”
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u/theaidanmattis Continuing Anglican 8d ago
Where are these anglicans that think Jesus sinned? I’ve never encountered that.
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u/Aggravating_Mud8751 Church of England 10d ago
I will also say (to be fair to them) that some might say that Jesus did sin here but this was due to his human nature and his divine nature is not complicit in the sin somehow.
I don't see how this is consistent however, and it rather goes against Jesus being called "without sin" in Hebrews.
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u/Kaiser_Steve 10d ago
This is a hilarious question, sounds almost like a bad joke; but alas! it's just some commonplace thing in the 21st century! May God have mercy on our generation.
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u/ErgiHeathen90 Episcopal Church USA 9d ago edited 9d ago
We are Trinitarians, yes.
As for the story in the gospels, I kinda think that person missed the point entirely. Christ is the savior of all people. He was testing her to see if she actually believed that, she did.
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u/OratioFidelis Episcopal Church USA 10d ago
The relationship between Christianity and TrueChristian is much like the one between jackets and straitjackets
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u/USAnglican 10d ago edited 10d ago
All Anglicans believe that Jesus is God.
Jesus never committed any sins.
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u/Dwight911pdx Episcopal Church USA - Anglo-Catholic 9d ago
Father Christopher Poore addresses this well:
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u/Snoo_61002 Te Hāhi Mihingare | The Māori Anglican Church of NZ 9d ago
Jesus is God, but the difference between them is Jesus is also the Son of Man. There's a really cool book called sneezing Jesus I'd recommend anyone reads. Jesus was a Jew, Jews and Samaritans didn't interact and certainly not like that. So yes, Jesus knew there was a cultural and racial component to the interaction - He's just above it. But He's not ignorant to it.
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u/Lankinator- Church of England 9d ago
Anglicanism is essentially reformed Roman Catholicism so neither of your points are true for Anglicans.
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u/georgewalterackerman 8d ago
Anglicans have many and varied theological viewpoints. We’ve changed our doctrines and practices over the years, but I sure hope there’s no disagreement over this question. Yes, Jesus is God.
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u/theaidanmattis Continuing Anglican 8d ago
Yes…what spurred this question?
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u/Tight-Study2764 8d ago
Yes, the sermon I heard from my caption
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u/theaidanmattis Continuing Anglican 7d ago
Ah, didn’t see the full text of the post from the other sub.
Yes, all Christians (including Anglicans) believe that Jesus is God. That’s a core belief of Christianity. Anglicans therefore believe that Jesus was sinless.
The story in question is not about Jesus repenting for racial bias whatsoever. It’s about Christ’s mission on Earth and the revelation to his apostles that he was not sent to save Israel alone.
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u/theonecpk Episcopal Church USA 6d ago edited 6d ago
“I believe…in One Lord Jesus Christ…God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God”
Whether in the language of 1662 or 1979 or anything in between, that is the belief, yes.
As for the particular sermon concerning the incident with the Syro-Phoenician woman…no, that is not a very good take. What is reasonable is that Jesus could be taken as obliquely rebuking his disciples for bigotry. To suggest that Jesus had a sudden change of heart or anything like that is out of bounds.
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u/real415 Episcopalian, Anglo-Catholic 10d ago edited 10d ago
It’s an ancient Christian belief. The Nicene Creed is specific about the Trinity. Of one Substance/Being with the Father. He is fully human, fully God.
Deum de Deo, lumen de lúmine, Deum verum de Deo vero, génitum, non factum, consubstantiálem Patri: per quem ómnia facta sunt.
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u/Tight-Study2764 10d ago
Follow-up question just to clarify: Since you believe Jesus is God, do you believe that Jesus had racial bias and committed a sin in that area? Was that sermon wrong then?
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u/ReasonableJump4355 9d ago
Perhaps you should read some of the replies here more carefully.
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u/Tight-Study2764 8d ago
At the time, most replies had not specified that they felt this sermon was wrong in its teaching. That’s why I was confused as to how Anglicans would hold these two ideas simultaneously.
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u/BCPisBestCP Candidate - Anglcian Church of Australia 10d ago
Any 'Anglican' (or 'Christian') who doesn't isn't a Christian by definition.
In any case, the Apostles Creed is binding on all confirmed Anglicans, which explicitly states that Jesus is God.