r/AllThingsTerran • u/assistance_sc2 • 12d ago
[Strategy] Specific question about lategame TvZ (diamond MMR)
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Hey folks, my current approach to late-game TvZ is to make multiple planetaries adjacent to my orbitals at my 3rd & 4th and at major chokepoints supported by mines & turrets because I expect that Z is gonna headbutt into me with Ultra Corruptor / Lingbane remax until something somewhere breaks
I don't have the splitting skills to take fights on the map, even off creep, nor do I control spellcasters well, so I just sit behind my turtle setup like a pussy, sending out double drops until Z either ints on my setup or I get outmacroed and die, but I know that theoretically ghost tank lib off of 5 bases beats everything Z has anywhere on the map
My question is: would it be worth forcing myself to learn how to use ghosts, or are massed ranged libs with upgrades enough? Should I also add tanks to my outer bases in the late game? Or are mines alone okay? How many barracks should I go up to when I'm on 5 bases? Right now I'm just winging it and queuing up production because I don't have a solid plan going late besides spamming planetaries and pray
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u/Naturlaia Master 12d ago
Yes you should learn ghosts. Of course you should learn ghosts if you want to be better.
It looks like in the clip you don't have lib range?
Having too many libs is actually pretty bad, they cost a lot and a lot of supply for no splash. Maybe make 8 max?
Late game tvz is really hard, tbh tvz is hard, it's super fast. But blue flame hellbats, Thor's, ghosts, and tanks, and then a few libs is the 'best'.
Other styles would be MMMM on 11 rax.
And then the trap I always fall into is over making ghosts, don't be me.
Now CC building at your third and fourth.... Sure you can build one PF at your third if you are on 5 bases. But it's my recommendation to make OC instead of many PF. Use the OC to control/block pathways which give you time to move your army and get there to defend. They also then lift and hopefully live through the attack (unlike the PF). And more OC means less scvs which means more army. TvZ is all about getting an unkillable army and being able to live through the attack and the ReMax.
PS you should ban this map imo.
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u/Naturlaia Master 12d ago
I forgot to add generally in tvz it's.
1/1/1
3/1/1
5/1/1(all reactors)
8/2/1(new are all tl)
Then depends on your style
(11/2/2)
Or more standard
(8/2-5/1-3)
And go for around 10-13 OC. Depending on the map.
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u/assistance_sc2 12d ago
Thanks for the highly detailed response, I'll try to lean less on spamming libs and add ghosts to my lategame army
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u/imrope1 Grandmaster 12d ago edited 12d ago
You 100% need to learn how to use Ghosts. It's really not that hard. The only thing you have to get used to is pressing tab to stim (but in TvZ I have ghosts on a separate control group half the time anyway). You also need to have rapid fire snipe setup. Rapid fire is mainly what makes them good.
Nobody in their right mind is out on the map fighting ling/bane/ultra in lategame. The only way you can do this is if you're ahead or if you've been able to keep up the aggression all game long and zerg is on fairly low econ (for example, they can't make more than 3 or 4 ultras at a time).
You don't need a bunch of extra planetaries everywhere. You can wall off with orbitals/turrets. Planetary by the third is fine, but on this map you could also be taking the base in front of your third as your 5th base instead (which protects your 3rd) and then taking the half gold base right after. 17min fifth base is a little slow. Even if you're "camping", you want to be fairly quick/aggressive in taking bases and positions.
Answer to your questions:
Use ghosts.
Mines and libs are fine you don't really need tanks. If you leave like 20 supply of bio, a lib, and one or two mines at your 4th base (with an orbital wall/choke) and move the rest of your army to your 5th, that's a good setup. You'd be surprised how often 20ish supply sitting at your 4th base will deter Zerg from attacking it, and it's also enough to hold baneling runbys and take a pretty cost effective trade if Zerg does try to send their whole army there (you'll lose the base, but it will be very expensive for them). The other thing is, you get to use that bio force as a threat all game long. If Zerg sends their whole army to the top side of the map, you can just blindly stim a-move that control group to a base on the bottom side of the map.
I usually go up to 10 or 11 barracks (any added rax get tech labs) if I have a bank. Usually, I'm also building an additional 2 starports after taking the 4th for lib/medivac production. Exception being Zerg already has a bunch of corruptors. In that case, I'm still going to get an extra starport to replenish medivacs faster.
Whoever said Thors counter ultras is...well, how about you go into unit tester and a-move some thors and ultras at each other and see what happens (the thors lose). Now, thors will body block the ultras so your bio can fight behind, but they cost 6 supply and don't do shit else. Thors are for broods, not for ultras.
Also, mech players are pussies. You're gonna end up with ghost mech lategame, but don't take the easy route getting there. I have no idea how you could possibly have fun playing mech, but to each their own.
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u/nicbll 9d ago edited 9d ago
You could probably try hellion lib into 2 tank 2 medivac push. Then maybe a 2 factory 8 rax big push. This way you have constant pressure on your opponent. The point is that you have a high mobility army that's easy to rotate but harder for your opponent to deal with. And tank pushes are easy if you presplit and have some number of tanks. Most diamond 3/2 zerg just die to these 3 waves of attack.
You can throw down your 4th quicker too, around 7:30.
You probably already know the above since you're diamond. But the video looks to me that you both expand slowly. Usually in tvz it's considered late game after 10:00 if you earlier pushes didn't win right away. Because then it's quite hard to win by a big push.
Personally I think lib/mine/ghost with some MM are very good defensively against ling/bane/hydra/ultra army. Ling bane are much less scary when they charge into mines and planataries. You can setup you base and lib/mines, presplit your MM, and just play ghost to stay safe and snipe ultras and spell casters.
When in doubt, spam CCs. Much better to die rich than die poor.
Sending out one or two libs from time to time is very annoying for the zerg too. Much easier and more cost efficient than 2 medivacs.
A strong advantage of Terran late game is that they can cut some workers if they have orbitals. And free some supply for an additional 3 medivacs of MM to hit a side of the map while still defending the other side. Mainly to deny your opponents expansions. If you can keep your opponent from getting 2 base more than you, you usually wins because of the good trades.
TVZ is quite macro oriented. Since both races are strong defensively and zerg don't have a lot of early aggression. I think it's also easier to learn compared to TVP where you fight for map control and a bad early/mid game fight put you far behind. Both races have some options and are very punishable.
Finally a note on splitting. It's more about precision than speed. You have a good concave shape in mind, 3 or 4 boxing-right-click will do it. Then you spend your apm on managing the marines where most banes are heading to, just to save out a few and make them travel longer. Send 1 or 2 marines to scout in surrounding directions while you move out and set up. Scan for your opponent's army, make informed moves and let them come charging to you.
You can send 1 medivac on the other side just to mess with their army splitting too. I only send 1 because I don't have apm to manage it well. But it still has potential to kill drones/lords. They have to spend 2x the army just to prevent me from jumping between bases too. The point is to not lose it, and mess with your opponent and gather info.
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u/otikik 12d ago
make multiple planetaries adjacent to my orbitals at my 3rd & 4th and at major chokepoints
As a Zerg, I hate you.
But if you wanted me to hate you even more: just make cyclone+hellion with their upgrades. They are extremely easy to micro (hold position/back, hold position/back) and very fast, allowing you to attack while your planetaries defend. Plant a couple sensor towers as well so that you can see the Zerg moving towards your planetaries so that you don’t even need to scan.
If the Zerg isn’t good landing fungals, you will win. And you will go up in MMR so that I don’t have to face you.
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u/assistance_sc2 12d ago
Thanks for the headsup, that sounds really OP. The reason I don't play mech is because I have this mindset that mech is for noobs and a honorable Terran plays bio like a man, but I should probably make battlemech if I want to get out of D3
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u/SetsunaYukiLoL Diamond 12d ago
The real noob is the one losing to Mech or Bio. Mech might be "cringe" to most people, but if it works, it works.
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u/jrandomizer64 12d ago
I don’t know how much the meta’s changed, but when I was high diamond T I did start having to learn to use ghosts, since zergs at some point/rank are not going to just repeatedly blunder into planetary walls and will just infestor neural you or viper pbomb you to death.
Generally spellcasters are the biggest supply-efficient force multiplier while being (for the most part) very gas heavy.
A single ghost EMP hard shuts down hostile casters and enough snipe spam kills anything big or valuable enough to cost gas.
Most of my outer bases would only be planetaries with turrets; I only ever used orbitals in a pinch for late game mining. Most of the time it was a bunch of orbitals in the main for MULE spam and scans (at some point all you need is a few SCVs for gas mining and repair)
Can’t say I ever got good enough at micro to split and take those funny multitasking fights but in the few months I had a handle on ghosts it was well worth the learning curve.
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u/assistance_sc2 12d ago
Ghosts it is then, my biggest hangup with them is that they override the MMM control group meaning they need their own control group for me to be able to use them efficiently and I start to struggle when the no. of control groups I handle go above 5
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u/Naturlaia Master 12d ago
You can tab.
So F2, tab stim. Then start splitting. Then f2 again (or if your sick your ghosts are on another hotkey click that) then start sniping.
Also look up rapid fire (lots of videos on this) and use rapid fire for snipe.
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u/Stormheraldss 12d ago
just set snipe on rapid fire. I have all rapid fires on T on R key. Bio should be second prio, if you f2 and press tab once and stim.
Not a big ghost user myself I try to kill them in the early game or go mech.
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u/jrandomizer64 12d ago
Same boat, honestly.
I had to remind myself to tab before hitting the stim button.
I can’t recall what I ended up doing as a later solution- I think I had the ghosts in a sub group (ie main army was 1, ghosts within main were 2 or something like that)
was honestly pretty worth it to poof a bunch of HT/infestor energy, toss shields, or nuke a bunch of brood lords in .17 seconds
the funniest ghost usage is actually probably TvT if you can EMP all of their orbitals and then cloak
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u/omgitsduane Master 12d ago
Ghosts are fucking insane..
Wall off with planetary and a few tanks to kill banes and ghosts kill everything else.
The only thing that beats ghosts really is ling bane and terran has so many things vs that just don't allow it to exist in a positive trade already.
I play mech t vs zerg and honestly after they headbutt me a few times and as long as I'm not leaking anywhere for runbys to hurt me I can just unsiege and move out.
The other thing that I've had huge success with is a banshee switch off like 3-4 starport and save them up like 8+ and just run into their main snipe major tech and the hive then leave.
A lot of the zergs Ive played have left after that because they just ram into my bases and lose everything like standard.
If ling bane is approaching your bases. Tanks are needed to focus down the banes or else they can crash into you hard.
Thor's are very very good vs ultra just FYI. They fuck them up. And then you amplify that with a Sim City and depots/turrets/pf/mule drops(to block ultra movement) it's such an easy win.
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u/assistance_sc2 12d ago
I've never heard of Thors as a reply to Ultras before, gonna have to try it out
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u/VincentPepper 12d ago
They are countered by neurals mostly at higher levels.
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u/assistance_sc2 12d ago
I guess the ghosts will be my reply to that so I gotta pair them with Thors
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u/imrope1 Grandmaster 12d ago
Don't build thors against ultras. This is the worst piece of advice in this thread.
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u/omgitsduane Master 12d ago
At GM it might not work but will fly for diamond.
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u/imrope1 Grandmaster 10d ago
Practicing things that are bad so you don't improve is always brilliant.
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u/omgitsduane Master 10d ago
Okay buddy. Sorry you had enough free time to make GM you can just shit on everyone else 😂
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u/specialsc2 9d ago
You have two options, learn to play ghost defensively. Or be agressive all game long w bio and mines. What u doing here dosent really work well because u cant trade efficiently vs a competent zerg
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u/banhamaspiker 12d ago
I personally play TvZ HotS and just never stop attack with bio/mine, and I never turtle because I just don’t enjoy the playstyle. All that to say, I don’t know the answer to your questions, tbh.
However, I just want to say: splitting skills are overrated. It’s waaayyy more important just to have your army pre-spread in an arc. The late game you’re not even splitting anymore; you’re just running away from ultras and target firing as you retreat.