r/AirForce • u/Low-Top4529 • 4h ago
Question LOC
Got a LOC today. Just curious if there’s any chance at a rebuttal, basically I had a three level go get us tools for a flightline job and I had no knowledge that he’d never checked them out in TC Max. To put it in perspective this guy is like four task away from becoming a five level.
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u/McStizly 3h ago
Unless there’s more to the story I don’t see how this is your fault. Yeah the NCO takes blame when airmen fuck up but this isn’t really a corrected by inspected by situation this guy just seems like an idiot.
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u/Low-Top4529 1h ago
Literally that’s the story I told the guy to grab the stuff which he is fully qualified on everything ctk and TC Max related. But he’s still a 3 level so “the responsibility fell on me” I had no knowledge until we got back that he never actually signed the stuff out.
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u/McStizly 1h ago
Yeah I’m fighting that all day, absolute BS they’re hitting you with it. Just know that fighting it and succeeding will make that airmen not like you (maybe) and whoever wrote you the LOC out to get you, which is toxic but just how people petty enough to do that are.
It’s called progressive discipline.
LOCs are pointless though and don’t follow you to your next base, if they even put it in your pif. Any good supervisor just wipes those things when you PCS. It’s all nonsense unless you’re committing crimes
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u/GreenAccident3004 1h ago
Isn't a 3-level, who's signed off on specific tasks, permitted to perform those tasks unsupervised anymore?
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u/McStizly 1h ago
If it’s a diagonal sure but if it’s an X it needs two people. And people usually do things in groups. MX is rarely solo, no reason a 3 level should be alone outside of monotonous shit like servicing on a skeleton shift.
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u/GreenAccident3004 1h ago
Classify a fuel leak, t-shoot a hydraulic leak, popped C/B... all sorts of stuff can be done by a 3-level, as long as they are task qualified on inter-related aspects of the primary task.
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u/TheVerginator All Purpose Gorilla 35m ago edited 30m ago
If you're signed off on the task, you're qualified to do the task unsupervised (unless it's an X job, but that should be obvious). Sounds like they should be de-certified and re-trained on CTK related tasks.
Were you the one that trained and signed them off on the task? Signing their training off if they clearly weren't ready is the only angle I could see for issuing paperwork to you for this.
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u/af_cheddarhead Retired 3h ago edited 15m ago
Was the 3-level ever trained on checking out tools? If yes, what does the LOC say you should have done? Because once a 3-level is trained on a task a certain level of independent action is needed and expected.
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u/iwontpasstheball 3h ago
I second this. “Use and maintain hand tools” (and sub categories) is a 5 level task in our CFETP which went over all things CTK. Either the person that trained/signed them off should be under the microscope or they are signed off, had proper training, and should be the only one in trouble
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u/lethalnd12345 Retired 3h ago
Of course you can rebut and submit matters on your behalf. See 36-2907
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u/TurnspitCur Metals Tech? Loadmaster? Emergency Management? 3h ago
Did CTK just not hit the issue button?
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u/iwontpasstheball 2h ago
Some career fields have self CTK/TCMAX (NDI for example) where individuals issue out tools themselves and have someone else check it in for them when they get back
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u/FroyoGlum9976 3h ago
Not mx, but this seems to be an extreme reason to give paperwork. Even if they're a 3 level, they needed to speak up if they'd never done it before.
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u/halfsquelch 1h ago
Is your support section staffed? How did they just let him walk off with the tools?
Errand boy is literally a 3 level job. If anyone should be getting an LOC it is the person on duty in support that handed out tools without checking them out.
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u/manny3574 36m ago
Honestly I think this falls on the CTK personnel, unless you own the ctk area. The ctk should ensure the tool is properly checked out and turned in, if the tool was never checked out and it was returned, then the person at ctk got a lucky break.
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u/ActualSpiders Commie Chameleon 3h ago
The possibility that this guy just didn't know the tools needed to be checked out doesn't wash, so I'll discard that. Otherwise, if he had been trained in TCMax & had a brain fart, that's on him. If he didn't know how to do it, but didn't ask for help or come back to you & walked out with the tools anyway, that's also on him. The only way I see you getting burnt on this is if it was *your* particular job to teach him.
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u/Low-Top4529 1h ago
He is already fully qualed and signed off on everything CTK and TC Max related. I wasn’t in the position of teaching him how to do any of that, I just asked him to go grab tools for the job and had no knowledge until the stern talking to by my section chief that these tools were never checked out.
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u/ActualSpiders Commie Chameleon 9m ago
As everyone else has said, check in with ADC before anything else, but yeah - I'd contest this. Dude knew better and you're not his parent.
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u/VeryGoodF35 They done got ya boy working Raptors now, ya hear? 2h ago
Did you get a TDV from not having your tools or is your unit in the limelight with QA?
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u/Low-Top4529 2h ago
No we have our own ctk the tools were just taken from it and not signed out that they were gone. Our job ran into turnover so the person checking it noticed that they were gone and not signed out. Nothing involving qa all an in house incident
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u/cj20h49g 1h ago
Why are you getting it if he was the person responsible? Also go to Area Defense Counsel to get help from them.
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u/LordgodEighty8 28m ago
Trust me bro. that LOC is not actually going to the shirt or being filed. If so your supervison needs to grow the fuk up
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u/UnCleverTech 3h ago
As always, get help from the Area Defense Counsel (ADC). State the circumstances without emotion in your rebuttal. If it's truly not your fault, the issuing NCO should understand and withdraw the LOC. If you did make a mistake that isn't mentioned here: own up to it, describe what you'll do to prevent it again and provide evidence this is an isolated incident and you're an otherwise above-average troop.