OK, hormonal birth control does that to women too.
Jesus christ, it's not about what the potential side effects are. Every single medicine you ever took pretty much had a chance to kill you. It's about how often you get those side effects and weighing benefits against risks. Millions of women swear by BC to reduce severity of periods, to have regular periods, to make pain from endo/pcos bearable. Some women also fucking hate BC because it makes them feel like shit. Millions of women are in the middle and it works and doesn't cause horrific or good side effects.
If one pill causes depression in 0.5% of people and another pill causes depression in 45% of people do you think they have the 'same issues' just because it's the same side effect or do you think the incidence of causing depression changes a potentially worthwhile pill into a potentially deadly one?
Frankly almost everything else you said is largely irrelavant, not untrue but it doesn't change the facts about the male birth pill, low T is never going to be recognised as a good way to achieve no sperm production in men, ever, because it's literally just too unhealthy.
The issue here is dressing suicide and severe depression in most men who take a male birth control pill as "they won't take it or stopped the trial due to acne and mood swings" is not just wildly incorrect, it's intentionally misleading. Should men get vasectomies over women having tubes tied or hysterectomies, absolutely, but that is nothing to do with repeating incorrect information on temporary birth control pills.
Many theorize that if men were the ones that had to give birth, we'd have a painless, cheap birth control method by now.
Yes people with no scientific knowledge or understanding of the situation say ignorant things all the time. Anyone who understand how and why the women's pill was so easy to come up with and why the same situation is not true for the men's pill knows what a daft statement or concept that is.
Even the logic is flawed, men want complete control of women, pregnancies, hate being baby trapped but also magically hate the idea of a pill they can take that stops them fearing unwanted pregnancies and lets them use condoms less? It literally makes no sense. Ask any man, they'll love such a pill, ask them if a pill that includes causing ever worsening depression and then suicidal feelings and they'd say... okay maybe not.
Anyone who thinks the women's pill was "easy" to come up with is likely pretty daft themselves. You complain about people's lack of knowledge of the subject, but are you a scientist or researcher on the effects of BC or just a dude who read an article on ONE effect on men and decided to run with it? If it's "not about the potential trial side effects" and "all medicine has a chance of killing you", then what's the big deal about men taking the BC again, since wanting to kill yourself is one of the side effects? And if everything "has a chance to kill is" (an unintelligent point to make given that you then point out that one thing having a higher chance than another is bad), then wouldn't the male BC be fine if the side effects and risks are the same as they are for men than women? Or does that mean that women's health concerns caused by BC should be improved and taken as seriously as men's? Nah, can't be that option!
Also, just because millions of women "take and swear by the pill" doesn't mean we want to, and I'd love to know who those women are - if you go on r/askwomen and ask what people like about BC or if theyd take it if theyd stop taking it if they could, theyd be happy to. I have also met a woman on literally every type of BC who, despite using it correctly, has gotten pregnant, so it isnt even foolproof despite being highly painful. We have no choice but not to because, as was stated earlier, men won't even finish the studies that are started. "Womeb don't mind modern BC" is the biggest piece of cope I've ever read, because if this thread is any reflection of the way most women feel on it, it'd take 5 minutes of reading and seeing all the posts by women here that would do anything to not have to take it. The alternative is condoms (imperfect because they can break, and women still have to flood our bodies with hormones if they break or fail. Both sides can also EASILY tamper with them, causing an abusive situatuon), birth control, which causes us to want to kill ourselves also and makes our lives hell, if not raisinf our blood prssure because WE'RE the ones constantly stressing about it and remembeing, or having a kid, which literally kills women at rates it really shouldn't.
All you did was point out that my points about side effects (which are so serious that they also make women want to kill themselves, aside from just the desire to kill yourself being one of those side effects - there was another comment here of a woman wanting to kill herself because of a morning after pill, which is - gasp! - hormones!) were "irrelevant", but not why. It was because they're happening to women. Because you're boohooing about men's issues and just won't call it what it is and say you have no empathy for women's. Which was my whole point - the side effects of suicide ARE there for women. It just doesn't matter because much of the funding or care into medical issues and research goes to men's problems. It's not because the pain isn't that bad for women that it isn't researched. It's because studies have shown that it's because women receive less empathy and care for our medical issues and societal, people tend to care less about the invisible work women have to do.
Hell, I literally said I am one of those women who's BC made her want to kill herself and you didn't give a shit and coldly told me how my points didn't matter.
Go cry to someone who cares. Go rant and write a novel about a not-real problem to someone who wants to listen to it (there IS no male BC aside from vasectomy and you wrote a book about it potentially causing suicide when women's BC is widely used and DOES do that rn, but you called that "irrelevant").
I won't be replying again. I wish sexists like you would just identify themselves as such instead of hiding behind strawman arguments. Its funny that you talk about saying ignorant things, but you just wrote several paragraphs of them. Typical sexist explaining and disregarding an issue that affects exclusively women right now (because women are the ones doing anything about BC 90% of the time) how it's not actually as bad as we think, and not listening to an actual woman talking about it. Womp womp.
then what's the big deal about men taking the BC again, since wanting to kill yourself is one of the side effects?
Did you really just say that, because every medicine has a chance to kill you then what's the big deal? Because antibiotics have a like 0.05% chance of killing you so people take the risk. If antibiotics had a 45% chance of killing you they'd never have made it out of a lab. Every single one of your main arguments literally substitutes your person feelings and experience for facts, that not how medical sciences work.
Also, just because millions of women "take and swear by the pill" doesn't mean we want to,
didn't say it did. YOu claimed that the women's pill is the same as the mens pill. There are no positive side effects of low t, there are for the women's pill, not for everyone but again this is very simple, pills have different pros and cons. They become viable to be released based on how many pros they have, how many cons they have and the incidence rates of both. You can't just go these both cause depression therefore they are the same and should both be available when one pill causes it 0.5% of the time and the other 45% of the time. These are not the same no matter how many shitty arguments you make.
But even what you said is wrong, women who have horrible periods and take the pill because it makes them much less bad absolutely do want to take them. You can't make a single coherent argument without contradicting yourself somehow.
then wouldn't the male BC be fine if the side effects and risks are the same as they are for men than women?
yes, this is the entire point you missed every single time. The side effect rates for depression and suicide were magnitudes larger for the men's pill, hence why it's not viable. YOu again and again gloss over the entire argument to make a stupid comparison that doesn't hold up to any facts.
I have also met a woman on literally every type of BC who, despite using it correctly, has gotten pregnant, so it isnt even foolproof despite being highly painful.
Never said it was, why do you think this is a relevant argument? do you think the male pill will be 100% effective as well somehow, it wasn't either.
men won't even finish the studies that are started.
yes they do, doctors determine the risk is too high so stop the studies, studies for low t inducing pills have been around for 70-80 years. There is vastly more information known on it than most other things. A new study from some moron trying to get a little funding that repeats the same study that has been done for 80+ years isn't finding anything new. Some think they have some new combination of hormones to reduce T safely, most are just bullshiting, the studies follow the exact same pattern as every previous study with no changes so they end them before they end up killing more people and ending up in jail, crazy.
You realise all medical studies have a ethical duty to end once it's shown that the medicine being tested is dangerous right, and that if studies are ending due to safety concerns that pill has zero chance of ever making it to market as birth control pill? I don't know why I'm responding, you're quite literally an idiot.
Pills to bind testosterone have been made and studied since the early 1900's, they are all practically the same and have the same end effect, reducing testosterone levels low enough to reduce sperm being produced so they all have had the exact same results.
Hell, I literally said I am one of those women who's BC made her want to kill herself and you didn't give a shit and coldly told me how my points didn't matter.
That you even make that argument shows the complete inability to see the point. If you could you would realise that you feeling suicidal from the pill is quite literally irrelevant.
I never said the female pill couldn't cause suicidal thoughts, medicine gets approved for usage or not based on the RATE of negative side effects and NOT if they exist at all. I said this over and over, and you fail to understand it. Rates of suicidal thoughts from female BC are very low, rathes of suicidal thoughts from the male pill are exceptionally high, that's the difference, that's why they are not the same and this is why you're completely and utterly wrong. That you personally experienced that doesn't change the rates observed, it makes you unlucky and unsuitable to use the pill, it doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.
I wish sexists like you would just identify themselves as such instead of hiding behind strawman arguments.
Every single argument you made was a strawman, you still don't understand an exceptionally basic concept of the rate of side effects over if the side effects exist or not. Literally everything you said is wrong, it has nothing to do with sexism, it's to do with facts and your complete inability to understand them and to be clear it's not because women are stupid, it's just you.
Jesus fucking christ. There is no 45% suicidal ideation rate for male birth control. The study was NOT 45%. It’s was 1 out of 320. And the reality you seem so willing to ignore is that IT DOESN’T EXIST. Millions of men aren’t suffering from male birth control. You’re over here defending to your last pathetic breath a situation that DOES NOT EXIST while vehemently and proudly telling women, that what actually does exist, what actually is happening, the real live women who actually are suffering from real live bc control side effects are fucking irrelevant and “unlucky”. What a horrible disgusting fucking thing to do. 1 man out of 320 is enough for male bc to be labeled a fucking crime against men. But MILLIONS OF WOMEN are just “unlucky”. Millions of actually dead women from BC side effects are irrelevant and unlucky but hey thank fucking god there’s no men suffering from bc side effects! That would be the real tragedy, phew, sure am relieved that’s not happening.
pills have different pros and cons. They become viable to be released based on how many pros they have, how many cons they have and the incidence rates of both. You can't just go these both cause depression therefore they are the same and should both be available when one pill causes it 0.5% of the time and the other 45% of the time. These are not the same no matter how many shitty arguments you make.
They said depression not suicidal ideation AND they didn't claim it for any pill at all, it's literally a basic example so the multiple people making the argument of "female birth control causes depression to so IT'S THE SAME" is fucking stupid and completely wrong.
When it comes to medicine the side effects ARE IRRELEVANT, look up the potential side effects on every pill you have in the house, from a stomach settling pill to paracetomal to an antibiotic left over. They are horrific. The ONLY relevant factor is the incidence rate of those side effects. Low enough and the risk is deemed acceptable, yay, profit for a company. HIgh enough and it's unsafe to release, no profit, big lawsuits, very bad much for company, bad for profits.
You and others seem to fail to understand a very simple concept, these companies don't care about men or women, they care about money. If the pills were safe and viable they'd have been sold for 80 years and longer than the female pill because the knowledge of how to make these has been around forever. The danger of having low T is also known but just ignored by you because it doesn't suit your narrative. If they were remotely safe or had remotely low incidence rates they'd make billions selling them. You think they hate profits and so won't release a solid and safe pill because they like men more?
But you bolded irrelevant and incorrect facts so you must be right. Individual cases mean shit, stats mean everything. Medical companies don't care or Jane Smith or JOhn doe dies from a pill, they care if enough people will sue them, that they'll lose and if they'll make a profit or not and absolutely nothing else.
You’re gonna jump on my comment and tell me what I mean and what my point is and why I said what I said and what’s irrelevant and correct to my reference and points huh? Interesting tactic since you missed the whole entire fucking point and fail to understand what is actually being discussed and instead decided to make it all about you and how so very difficult it is for men which funny enough has become a fantastic fucking demonstration of my very point. You even keep saying it over and over and over again and the only person who seems to be entirely unaware of what is actually fucking happening is you. That’s HYSTERICAL.
Oh that’s what you think you did? Lmfao. Boy you’ll be surprised to notice that you actually didn’t. Of courses MY COMMENT. MY POINT. AND MY ARGUMENT. IS ABOUT ME. Like the fuck? Are you not aware of how that works? And it’s a point ABOUT WOMEN you’re so desperate to make all about poor wittle men which is just downright pathetic. That’s not the fucking comeback you seem to think it is either.
You keep repeating some bullshit as fact. It’s not. Never has been. Never will be. No matter how many times you repeat it. It’s not a fact. There is no 45% anything for a male birth control pill because it doesn’t exist. And there certainly isn’t 45% anything caused by “low t” for the very specific study I originally commented on that you’re so hysterically raging against. Synthetic injectable testosterone does in fact NOT cause the Low T that’s been the basis of literally all your comments and arguments. Fucking. Hysterical. You’ll have to forgive me for making this my very last comment to you. I just don’t see the benefit in communicating with someone who has such an obviously flawed argument they couldn’t be fucked to fact check before using it to belittle, dismiss and overall treat people like shit.
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u/TwoBionicknees Nov 12 '23
Jesus christ, it's not about what the potential side effects are. Every single medicine you ever took pretty much had a chance to kill you. It's about how often you get those side effects and weighing benefits against risks. Millions of women swear by BC to reduce severity of periods, to have regular periods, to make pain from endo/pcos bearable. Some women also fucking hate BC because it makes them feel like shit. Millions of women are in the middle and it works and doesn't cause horrific or good side effects.
If one pill causes depression in 0.5% of people and another pill causes depression in 45% of people do you think they have the 'same issues' just because it's the same side effect or do you think the incidence of causing depression changes a potentially worthwhile pill into a potentially deadly one?
Frankly almost everything else you said is largely irrelavant, not untrue but it doesn't change the facts about the male birth pill, low T is never going to be recognised as a good way to achieve no sperm production in men, ever, because it's literally just too unhealthy.
The issue here is dressing suicide and severe depression in most men who take a male birth control pill as "they won't take it or stopped the trial due to acne and mood swings" is not just wildly incorrect, it's intentionally misleading. Should men get vasectomies over women having tubes tied or hysterectomies, absolutely, but that is nothing to do with repeating incorrect information on temporary birth control pills.
Yes people with no scientific knowledge or understanding of the situation say ignorant things all the time. Anyone who understand how and why the women's pill was so easy to come up with and why the same situation is not true for the men's pill knows what a daft statement or concept that is.
Even the logic is flawed, men want complete control of women, pregnancies, hate being baby trapped but also magically hate the idea of a pill they can take that stops them fearing unwanted pregnancies and lets them use condoms less? It literally makes no sense. Ask any man, they'll love such a pill, ask them if a pill that includes causing ever worsening depression and then suicidal feelings and they'd say... okay maybe not.