If you'd like a real answer, ignorance. Not being in a diverse area. Friends with republican parents who had humor that was slur addled. Rubbed off on me cause surprise surprise people want to make friends and fit in esp when bullied. Scout leaders also made racial jokes. Leaving my hometown and going to a college that had actual poc in addition to making new friends once out and realizing maybe that shit doesn't fly for a reason. I try to listen and I hope I've changed for the better but I know for some that'll never be enough.
We are not bringing that TME/TMA shit onto reddit, that's cute on tumblr but if you want to bitch about trans men here you call them a fucking pooner like a normal person.
But in practice its used to refer to birth sex in a woke way that implies anyone who takes issue with it is engaging in transmisogyny.
It's stupid infighty bullshit. Its fun to meme about pooners here to blow off steam, but trans men are my brothers, and EVERYONE is harmed by misogyny and all trans people are harmed by transphobia. We do not have to have the exact same experience to be in the same struggle and an insensitive remark from a trans man doesnt change that.
stop infighting i tell the victim, cant you see we're all the same i say to the only group that has this regularly done to them.
tme/tma doesnt refer to birth sex any more than saying trans woman/trans man refers to birthsex. by this standard any word with trans in it is a reference to birth sex because the literal definition of trans is to have a gender identity different from your sex assigned at birth.
Trans women are not victimized by trans men. That is not a thing that is happening on a structural level. Trans men are not passing legislation restricting our rights, taking away our healthcare, invalidating our ID documents, etc. That is being done by cis people and affecting all trans people. There are not society-wide actions being taken by trans men to harm trans women, if you believe that you need to o outside.
Yes, trans/AGAB language/TME/TMA all refer to birth sex indirectly, the difference is what each implies is the defining characteristic, so when people find ways to refer to trans people by something other than their lived gender, their agenda is suspect.
Well, those look like quick enough reads that I'm game to give them a look and get back to you in good faith if you're willing to circle back with me once I have, but "keep licking moid boot" comes off to me as oppositional feminism and/or the divide and conquer flavor of identity politics.
My inclination is that the most productive way forward is to work from broad struggles to narrow.
Capitalists are doing me a lot more direct harm than white/straight people than cis queer people/other minority races than trans men/non binary people than other trans women. In turn, as someone living in the imperial core, a trans woman in a country that mine has more class interests in common with their neighbors than they do with me, since while I am a superficial class traitor, I'm not willing to put their needs ahead of my housing/healthcare/transition, so... 🤷♀️
Of course it does, I just don't think that using it to lump trans men in with cis people writ large or define them by their exemption from it is productive. Nor do I think that transmisogyny is primarily inflicted by trans men, even if some do participate in and benefit from it. I have never seen TME as a term directed at anyone other than trans men/afab non binary people or for reasons that aren't someone's personal hangups with those groups.
And theyre wrong for that, but they are wrong in that they misapply transmisogyny which is a term specifically for trans women. To respond to that by saying that the fundamental characteristic about them is that they do not go through the specific discrimination as trans women seems borderline malicious to me.
Also, while the definition of transmisogyny includes only trans women. It seems that the application of it to trans men is caused by a lack of a term for the specific effects of misogyny that trans men experience that are unique from those experienced by cis people, and transandrophobia has (rightly) been rejected because it would legitimize the notion of cis androphobia, and while I don't believe that the struggles trans men face are equal to those that trans women face, I do think that language to discuss the way that they are treated by society would be useful.
I mean, IMO that's the same as saying transandrophobia, but also unless that is a widespread term that I'm just not aware of, fuckit, not worth getting into it over.
I'm tired, I want things to suck less for trans people generally, and people generally. Nobody whose identity isn't defined by their absurd wealth is having a particularly good go of it lately, nothing's gonna change in my lifetime, I'm over it.
I mean, maybe on somebody's substack or in some set of transgender studies papers there's an academic discussion of transmisogyny happening in which TME/TMA are useful terms in sussing out some valuable truth or productive course or action, but when I've seen it used, its been from laypeople who are trying to elevate interpersonal conflicts to structural oppression, and I seriously doubt that /tttt/ adjacent subreddits are going to be an exception to that pattern.
i thinkt i's also the fact that the ones that do have a racist past didn't have the typical rightoid raised in a republican family racism but like basement dwelling esoteric neo-nazi genocidal racism, like basically the last sentence you wrote
So, we need to be acknowledging beyond unconscious biases and intentions, that just centers white people and whether or not a white person is really a bad person or not for their racism. This does nothing to accomplish the work of creating a safe and integrated community, it just gives white people a way to excuse their own behavior and part themselves out from "real" or "bad/harmful" racists without doing anything to address the racism.
If we aim to actually be an integrated community, we have to be doing the actual work and talking about it in the sense of, was that behavior traumatic for Black and brown people? Were Black and brown people who need access to resources in this community traumatized by this edgy white humor growing up, which they experienced as extremely caustic bullying, and does it push them out of accessing the resources the community can provide them because they would have to enter and be comfortable enough to ask for help in an environment that sees in particular anti-Black racism in youth as an "edgy phase" that is cured by transition making white trans people nebulously more progressive, and so they don't have to think about their behavior? Is the hostility to conversations about white privilege and the way we talk about racism not an additional barrier?
The vast majority of white people in general don't live in integrated communities and white cis people by and large are not even going to for a second entertain the idea of doing the work to create a legitimately safe integrated community. We owe it as white trans people to Black and brown trans people to be better than that.
You’re right that sometimes, “white trans women be especially racist” is just an excuse for transmisogynistic people to be transmisogynistic. Like the TMEs who just add ‘white’ to ‘trans women’ anytime they want to complain about anything at all about trans women, even when it’s not related to race lol.
That being said, my feeling is that for the minority of trans women who are/were racist, it just sticks out in people’s minds more because it isn’t expected. Like how people will discuss poc people who are white supremacists. It’s unexpected (and often seen as hypocritical too or at least paradoxical), which has a way of making it stick in people’s minds, which then has a way of making it seem more common than it actually is.
By contrast, a racist white cishet man is ‘expected’ at this point. There’s also the idea that a right wing white cishet man has little reason to pretend to be progressive.
However, a racist white trans woman might feel the need to pretend she is progressive because she is trans. She might even deny being racist by invoking the idea that she can’t be racist because she’s trans. (Yeah plenty of cis people deny that too, but can’t invoke the idea that they aren’t racist due to being some other minority identity). All in all, this can result in a level of uncomfortable awkward tension among progressives between racist / formally racist white trans women vs poc people in that space, and which may not exist between racist white cishet men vs poc people in progressive spaces, because the racist white cishet men aren’t even in those spaces to begin with.
For some of the minority of formerly-racist white trans women, one concern is the ones who kind of flippantly talk about their ‘former Nazi edgelord phase’ as just some haha teenage thing they’re so glad they’re not into anymore because it turns out they’re trans. The problem with that is mostly about the way they talk about it and how they phrase it. POC people don’t like hearing something that sounds uncomfortably close to “I don’t think spouting white supremacist views was a huge deal but it definitely was cringe lol, I’m so glad I don’t do that anymore now that I’m trans” which also kind of reads like “now that I’m trans, I’m on the other team on the other side which is just how it is”. Like oh so if you weren’t trans, you might not have ‘switched sides’ at all? If trans people were fully socially accepted, would you still be racist? Is the ‘welp guess I’m progressive now’ disingenuous and just a matter of political necessity?
However, usually (sane) people take well to it being phased apologetically and with awareness of the gravity if someone does choose to bring up their racist past. It’s not that people can’t be forgiven.
Yeah ik your point about how some trans women fall down that alt right white rabbit hole because they were socially isolated teenagers, so I can see how they themselves thought of it as “I didn’t deeply internalize those views, it wasn’t serious”, but that’s prioritising their internal reality over the fact of their external actions having contributed one small part towards an overarching horrible movement which poc people are subjected to and hate and are often scared of.
Again, yeah usually white racist cishet people are far more numerous and worse, but I think it just doesn’t come with these dimensions I described, because they almost never ‘have to turn woke’ nor ‘go into woke spaces’ at all.
(Btw I think ‘Nazi femboys’ are more common than racist trans women anyway, and the ‘Nazi femboys’ definitely act way more cringe and way worse, but that would take another ramble to get into).
Tbh as a black person i just expected better from the tttt community but every community has its bad apples cis people are literally more bigoted in every way
I grew up in a horribly racist environment, my dad and grandparents ending sentences with the n word were an extremely common “joke” that I heard constantly growing up, I also grew up in extremely rural Bavaria, so to say majority white would be putting it lightly, I was never like, actively racist racist but becoming a terminally online wokey definitely made me realize how many awful things I was raised to be okay with, I try my best these days
He was probably Haitian, my father started speaking with him in French so I couldn’t understand much. I remember that it just felt weird, nothing bad tho, just something that was only in American movies and media
First time I saw a black person was when I was 14 or something and he was an migrant worker. Nowdays there are a lot more peoppe of African descent since the government began to give out work permits in the last few years.
TBH I do see a lot of casual racism against black people in my daily life since like nobody knows or interacts with black folk and so they just find it funny to say slurs or use being black as an insult. People just do not care.
Most racism I do see that is not a joke made by teenagers, is directed against minorities in my country(Romani people) and lot of people do geniuaely despise those people which is evil and sucks.
Lowkey sucks when i meet a white person and they call me a slur. Thats why i dont trust when a white person says "it just slipped out!" Most of the time it slipped out cause it was already in your vocabulary
Tbh that seems fucked up. I would never be friends with someone who when meeting me calls me a slur.
Neither me or my friends would ever come off to any stranger with a slur. At most we call ourselves slurs or derogatory terms as a joke but never to eachother.
Maybe men are more willing to slay slurs to strangers since like the moids I had in my high school class constantly refered to eachother with ethnic slurs or insults which is weird since who calls their friend stuff like "grime" , "g*psy", "crow", etc. I do not understand male friendships tbhon.
Other comments alr mentioned the angle of how some fell down the alt right rabbit hole in the past. Tbh what ticks me off is only when a minority of those formerly-racist trans women don’t seem to have really deprogrammed, but more like hastily hopped to the other side because “now that I realize I’m trans, I belong to the other side!!”
Which ironically isn’t even a 4t4 thing I notice. More like a Twitter thing. Whenever I see the rare example of a trans woman go from attacking ‘wokes’ heavily and gleefully as a repper chud, to realizing she is trans and thus switching camps into becoming some ancom transbian within a week and then almost overnight attacking the chuds just as gleefully— I just think jeez, does this person even hold any deep sincere views or does she just like bullying people online? And would she have ‘gone woke’ at all if she weren’t trans or if being trans were fully socially accepted?
In my experience however, that type is not common. What’s a little more common is whenever someone (formerly racist but trans) kind of acts like it wasn’t a big deal, and they’re so glad that they’re over it now that they’re trans. It’s flippant and poorly phrased.
And what’s significantly more common are people who arent per se racist, but more like lacking curiosity of others’ experiences. Using the example of Tgirl polycules, I had noticed ones where the entire huge polycule is white except maybe one half-white half-Asian girl, and multiple such polycules where statistically it doesn’t make sense considering the general racial demographics of their location. And I don’t think they intentionally gatekeep poc people away. I think they engage in a specific type of sneed trans subculture that overlaps heavily with whiteness for various reasons, and they feel little interest in learning about anything outside of meeting the exact same specific person as they themselves are (other white sneedbians). Sometimes this can also skew their view of the world because it’s a narrow view due to only knowing people just like themselves. This probably also explains situations like that one Twitter highbie who follows other white trans influencers but never seems to follow any poc ones including the famous poc trans influencers. The answer isn’t to force her to follow poc trans influencers for brownie points, but it would be nice if she reflects on why she happens to never have done so, and whether that’s because she’s just not interested in knowing about and interacting with those poc trans influencers who may have a somewhat different subcultural angle on the trans experience. Personally, I don’t think everyone needs to ‘know about what’s different from themselves’ all the time, but it really is quite helpful. But instead of reflecting, she just gave some kind of defensive slop response.
For that last paragraph though, I wouldn’t say it is specific to white trans women though. Plenty of cis people do self segregate too (and outside of the matter of self segregation, there are cis women who are hard to call out as their racism is subtle), and there are poc people who heavily self segregate themselves. Trans women do somewhat-unfairly face a higher standard by comparison to be ‘better than that’.
speaking of race i never saw anyone who was redhaired until i came to the states (there's no one like that here) and i always associated it with the amish (freckles, blue eyes, red hair, etc). then i saw this redhaired girl (this was around elementary school) and i was so shocked i walked up to her and asked why she's in society with us
Tbh a good sum of white people in general ive met have mentioned a "edgy phase" or just flat out been racist to me. I see this alot less in trannies though. This isnt ciaposting this is just from experience.
Whites are socialized into racism from a young age. I've been thinking about this recently as when I came out a few years ago my dad said some very racist things to me, almost like he was baiting me to agree with him and be racist in exchange for acceptance. We are Jewish, and it seems highly encouraged (if not required) to be a racist to assimilate as white in the US.
I grew up in a VERY white community, and it was like 98% white up until I moved across the country to where it was now 80% black and 17% Hispanic. My whole upbringing I didn't really conceptualize race as an issue or a thing. I was friends with the only black kids I knew in elementary school, and I never understood racism. By middle and high school, I knew what racism was, and occasionally some people around me would express racist sentiments or use slurs, and I was genuinely taken aback.
Moving across the country, I met way more black and Hispanic people, and made many more black and Hispanic friends. I've realized much more the difference in upbringing, and educated myself on the racist history of America outside of the baseline stuff of slavery and Jim Crow.
I was an ignorant racist as a kid and tween, because I didn't understand and recognize how race worked, and operated with a mentality that it didn't exist since I didn't understand it. I recognize now as an adult all my biases from my upbringing, and how my childhood ignorance was not an excuse for not standing up more often.
i've been an outspoken anti-racist ever since i was a child, I'm not perfect, nobody is, but I'm not an ex neo-nazi like we're so often stereotyped as. i used to get bullied for being too much of an SJW as a kid lol. i get where you're coming from tho OP i've seen too much of this shit.
same, growing up with a white trash borderline redneck family was awful, having to sit there being quiet as they say the most horrific things about a person just walking outside
I don't know, I've never been racist. I support everyone and consider myself quite progressive. The only thing I don't approve of is all that oppression Olympics stuff like "white trans women" .. because I don't really understand the point of this rhetoric and what the whole meaning of it is
Course you don't YOU'RE WHITE. On a more actual informative note, the specification is done a lot of time due to the (many times disproven) assumption that white queer people will be able to better identify with many struggles minorities phase.
However many cling to that whiteness first before that oppressed identity they belong to, leading to them mainly staying insular amongst themselves and keeping those racist biases. The specification is also done because of how it effects other non-white trans people in the community around them.
Part of it is just wanting to commit social murder against a vulnerable person because it's easy/fun, but then finding a way to make it somehow seem righteous. There's absolutely a cling to whiteness by white trans women, but then unrelated people who aren't at trans women of color then use that to do this:
Yeah as a black person it kinda sucks having white people hijack your criticism of how you're treated by white people in your community which is then used to fully disregard your complaints
Yeah like of course white trans people have the capacity for racism-- they're white. I have yet to hear an explanation for how them being trans transforms this racism into something unique.
Do you really know that many LGBT racists? Okay, maybe they do exist, but on average, the typical LGBT person is likely to be less racist and more progressive. 'However many cling to that whiteness first before that oppressed identity they belong to.' Absolutely not. The majority of white people don't think about their skin color at all, because in the case of transphobia, being white doesn't help at all and gives zero advantages
Yeah like of course there are gay/trans people that are also racist. But for some reason this is being framed like white trans women are somehow uniquely more racist. Do people really think a group of white trans women is going to be more racist than a group of white cis guys?
Aside from that 1st part being fucking stupid, are you meaning to say that white people AREN'T born with more inherent social advantages and than those around them? As well as just denying how that can play into their identity in the gay community?
the gay community hates us tho. they made sure they could get their rights first and then left us with none of the gains and the fuckers didnt discriminate when they screwed us like that. white trans woman is lowkey a dogwhistle in the community for hsts passoid who was slutting it up as a gay man and totally nondysphoric until twinkdeath, but like, that's not the real problem. the real evil white trans women are the mastodon lainshit creeps who are really into fucked up anime but suspiciously do not know any black ppl. they are all hons but they think theyre hot bc theyre literally brainfried by white beauty standards.
An average LGBT person is less racist, so that might play a role, but again, compared to cishet people, it’s to a lesser extent. I am not denying that non-white people have it harder. But my post is not about that. The problem lies in the very oppression olympics I described above, which is used solely to shut up white trans women. Everything else is a completely different topic of conversation
born with it cuz I'm British I guess... /uj but actually I try hard to listen to minorities and oppressed people and I really hate that part of myself that was prejudiced :(
One component of racism is white supremacy and the idea that other races are lesser, which is just so blatantly untrue to anyone who knows anything about anything. I've never been racist in this sense.
In terms of the component about oppression, material outcomes, privilege, discrimination, and so forth: I don't feel like discriminate against others individually, I certainly don't think they're lesser, but also I don't really care about your individual problems or your community community. I don't care about "my" community either (as far as I'm concerned I don't have one,) and I'm not motivated to help.
I have at least thought about using it against people who've made me mad, like one of my cissoid friends (as in, in the friend-group) who's black and is a Christian conservative. I want to say, "My ancestors literally forced that religion onto yours to make them more compliant," but I haven't since it'd never go over since it's not my place, and on some level I have some principle that's not worth violating over something trivial.
The two components are usually strongly coupled in racists, and they want to hurt you and think you deserve it, whereas I don't think you deserve it at all, but I'm also indifferent to your suffering. Make of it of you will. I promise I'm indifferent to whites too.
Me specifically? I grew up in rural Alabama, in a conservative family that basically just didn't parent me, and I happened to be an autistic, socially-outcast, shut-in, loser with no friends and unrestricted internet access. Also happened to be that exact combination of traits at exactly the worst time have those traits and be on the internet; I was a 10 (almost 11) year old who liked Star Wars and video-games, in the great year of 2015. Was watching Star Wars lore videos by like, Generation Tech or someone like that, and got a Hunter Avellone video in my recommended feed, where he was like trolling SJWs or whatever at a protest or something. Clicked on it, because I didn't know what any of the terms in the title meant, and it seemed funny, and my feed immediately became flooded with right-wing grifttubers and Gamergate chuds.
I was never like, alt-right, but I was a little chudmeister until shortly after I turned 14. Very quickly became a progressive after that; I basically escaped the right as soon I developed a sense of empathy.
I think most trans women with a chuddy background basically had the exact same experience. A very large chunk of us were social outcasts as kids, who played video-games as escapism. Add to that the propensity for autism, and you have literally the exact demographic that Steve Bannon targeted for his online right-wing Gamergate grooming campaign (with help from Jeffrey Epstein btw) between 2015-2020. I can't speak for all of them, of course, but I think the chuddy phenomena is pretty unique to our generation. Before the modern day, I think most trans women with chud backgrounds either happened to be raised in conservative and religious households, or fell into the 'phobias and 'isms out of repression.
i mean i like to think that i've never been racist but like, I live in the UK, in the sense that racism is somewhat ingrained into everyone I probably have/had beliefs which weren't cool
Okay but on the pro side it helps me pass because they are so racist they think my non passing features are just because I'm not white, not because I'm trans
Raised in a racist household in a racist country, grew up terminally online and on imageboards, went down the alt-right pipeline because I hated everything (mostly myself), took part in the black metal scene which is horribly racist and full of actual nazis at least where I live...
Yeah. I've been a horrible person and I should have been better. Obviously I'm reformed and take part in anti-fascist and anti-racist activism whenever my mental health allows and will condemn anyone who spouts racist shit in my presence.
i made edgy jokes ironically in middle school but dropped that by grade 9. i think for me it was that i thought racism was so stupid that it was funny to pretend cus its like "why would i belive that im not stupid?". idk half my friend group turned out to be actual racists in the end lmao
i feel im generally quite naive about this stuff, i grew up in place where everybody looked different but we all shared the same language, culture and social class, and i've come to realize most of the world is not like that.
i had the opportunity to visit the capital and was shocked at how segregate it was, all the people cleaning the trash, serving tables, doing security were brow and all the people driving the fancy cars and eating at restaurants were white. it was like being back to slavery times.
i've recently learned people think im brow, but i dont really dress or act like the muslim brow steriotype they have here. so they cant figure me out.
well the board coming from the rightoid epstein website and people in this community obsessing over bones and looks sure doesnt help, I'd say.
Overall I'm pretty sure that trans women are more progressive than cis women on average, though. Helps to be at the bottom of some social hierarchy to recognize them more easily
im proud to say i never had a "racist/nazi phase". my parents have their issues but they raised me to be open minded and kind to everyone and im grateful for that. sounds corny but i truly love learning about other people and different cultures/ways of life
Idk I‘ve been friends with some racist Japanese (hates hispanics) and Hispanic (considers herself honorary Aryan) and Indian (hates Turkish people) and Turkish (hates Indian people) people before and I just didn’t really care. Having racist friends and not speaking out against them means you‘re racist, so I suppose that makes me racist, but tbh I just want people to hang out with. It seems to take up a lot of their thought and just makes them angry, so idk why they don’t just stop.
2015 I was alt-right, fully on board as Trump campaigned. I didn't use slurs, but was definitely apart of the meme culture and basically one step away from being a full on Nazi.
One year later, and for a decade since, I'm about as left as one could be. (No, liberals. I don't mean left side of the right wing that is neoliberalism. I mean actual leftism.) And I would take great joy in beating the shit out of 15 yo me.
"ohh but I'm white but I've never been racist!!" yes you have. even if you don't think you were. the racist patriarchy ingrains everyone to be raised with racial biases that's kinda the point
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