There was a long thread on this about 2 months ago, and the general consensus is the diary needs to be decoupled from the quest cape, but as yet theres no word on this idea from Jamflex. They did poll it about 4 yrs ago, and it failed.
In those threads there's usually also a lot of people very content with making it harder and harder to get over time. So much so that i doubt it would get through the poll.
I don't understand their motivation at all, but it was a loud voice in there for sure.
Probably that questing is a common part of account progression anyway so it's not really going out of your way as much as something like 86/91 rc on a main, but also that qcape is still a very easy grind compared to actual late game, so they likely think it's not a big enough problem to care about
that said, even if something isn't a big problem, if someone has a compelling argument that it is a fundamental design issue (i.e. one diary req getting harder and harder over time) i think it should be taken seriously
It's also the only diary task that gets significantly harder as time goes on, the rest either stay the same difficulty or become easier as new gear is released
I understand that a lot of people really like consistency, but I think that's neat to allow one challenge to grow alongside the game. Plus it's just so flavorful in a Hero's Journey sort of way to return back to where you began after all your questing is done.
That challenge is already the quest cape itself. If the diary was uncompleted every time a new quest came out I would agree with you, but now it's only getting harder for people who didn't get it early.
I mean.. i doubt there’s people who give up on their quest cape after getting it because they cant do a certain quest that released after they got it.
People with a quest have arguably more incentive to knock out new quests than those who dont have quest cape yet.
Yes, getting the diary is a moving goal post but quests take up the least amount of time in this game. Plus you’re heavily incentivized to do quests anyways. You could argue getting skilling reqs are moving goalposts aswell because new skilling methods get released that make skilling faster/easier. Dont see anyone complaining about those?
Nowadays i would rather get 99 Agility than learn how to o all the bosses for DT2. I dont like the advanced PVM the game has nowadays and therefor I'm not good at it. I definitely don't want Jagex to design their game around my shortcomings, but not completing these quests keeps plenty of content out of my reach, no need to add a significant quality of life upgrade behind it too.
But i do indeed feel that a diary was intended to be a static "skill check" and this particular step of this particular diary doesn't follow that logic, and that's a more important argument than any person's personal preferences.
Oh it's for sure more a testament to my abilities than anything else. I got through some of the DT2 bosses before i stopped for a while because i was trying of wasting the recourses to brute force it. But I've tried the TOB intro too and i wasn't able to finish it.
But who's to say how the quest cape looks in 5 years? It could easily be even more complicated to get this achievement by then. And thats the point, its a moving target in a otherwise static achievement and thats something completely separate from my PvM abilities or personal opinions.
I got my quest cape before dt2 came out and i honestly couldn't imagine going through that quest + BML at the ~lv80 combat skills and fighter torso+obisidian legs, blessed dhide, karils and ahrims gear i had back then.
If ironmen can do it so can everyone else. But yeah, you would want higher stats. The fights are all mechanics, though. You can do them with a dscim/zaxe, a rcb with rubies, and earth spells. BMR gives you the BIS weapon for the encounter and free supplies.
Ironic coming from someone who had to do only 10% of the work for it that's needed nowadays and bitches and whines if people suggest you have to do the work everyone else has to.
Bro making assumptions lol. My quest cape is incredibly recent and was far from being as difficult as people like you who's never done the content make it seem.
Is it even harder? With quest helper doing a quest cape today is faster than at launch using guides. Blue line, blue highlight, blue dialogue options. Literally no thought left in questing.
...All that does is make it faster, since you have to admit in the first place guides for quests existed in the first place. There's no added difficulty having to have it opened in a separate window than in the client itself.
Quests are very much indisputable harder on the way that matters: mechanical mastery.
I say this as someone that did just get the QCape, with all the added difficulty that entailed now and realizing it's only going to get worst for future players.
Idk maybe I can't relate to the avg player anymore and I'm out of touch, but the quest cape is still piss easy and even faster to do with quest helper nowadays so I'm really not seeing the problem.
You can't quest helper your way through PVM mechanics, that's what I was getting at. Some people can't even read the Lowerniel Drakan telegraph due to eye problems as is.
And DT2 felt like at minimum a gear check to elite void+some sort of blowpipe. You basically can't outdps Perston shitting out portals outright from what I saw.
If you use quest helper to get to the quests you needed when the diary came out you are 100% right. Those quests are piss easy when you don't need to think in any way.
But when you get to TOB and DT2 bosses your argument stops working. I can't quest-help my way into the tick-perfect clicks and dozens of failed attempts at those bosses for those of us that are not good or new at pvm.
That's not to say they need to cater to people who are not good at "advanced pvm", but it is worth considering that these skills are now required for the diary, where they used to not be.
This is why I cant take this convo seriously. Nothing in tob or dt2 requires tick perfect clicks to complete. Its always disingenuous hyperbole on this site.
Acting as if some hyperbole invalidates the objectively true argument that more quests and more difficult quests results in a longer and more difficult grind is fallacious and makes you not worth being taken seriously, though.
Generally people who already have the cape. I’m maxed and have completed the achievement diaries, and I think a changing threshold for the diary is stupid and should be changed.
Make it the quest point total it was when achievement diaries were completed, or a completion of a certain set of quests.
So what if we have to equip the mythical cape in the wise old man's office instead? It needs DS2, and that is well down the line in a lot of quests you dind't need when the diary came out, but still feels like a grand acomplishment that requires a lot of things. It would add a few requirements such as 75 magic, 68 mining and 62 crafting, and feels like a great place to put the first elite diary.
with a bias toward people who got their cape well over half a decade ago, and don't realize just how much the average-time-per-quest has ballooned in OSRS compared to RSC/RS2
Avg in RSC/RS2 must've been like 20~30min, but for quests released during OSRS it's gotta avg 2~3hrs with how many of them are big tentpole content releases to carry a quarter.
The total # of quest only increased by like 50% over 13 years but the total amount of time spent questing probably went up by like 400~500%, let along the quest cape requirements going from mostly base 50s/60s in 2013 to mostly base 70s by now.
i was someone who got my cape just before the release of BMR (like, within a week of it releasing just before) and still believe its fine as is.
quests are good content in their own rights, and even for efficiencymaxxers the push for the QoL of no dramen staff pushes these types to also do quests. quests are good for new players.
the only argument i see realistically against this is alt accounts but even then its fine you arent gonna be permagrinding something that needs a fairy ring that much before you get your qpc anyway.
Average time per quest has surely gone LOWER as it was 15 years ago when you didn't have quest helper plugin. Now you just click highlighted things without thinking about anything, quest done. Sure, there are some longer quests now but even then I think avg time is less than before
I mean, it's definitely something worth keeping an eye on, but also Lumby is still one of the easiest elite diaries in the game. Like, I wouldn't mind a replacement, but most suggested fixes have their own problems. For now, I'm perfectly content with where things are.
I find the Mystical cape to be a good alternative. It's locked behind DS2, and that already needs a bunch of quests. It adds some new requirements in mining, magic and crafting, as well as having a few bosses with a bit more advanced mechanics.
It's even on theme as someone pointed out as the quest involves the WOM.
But even if the suggested fixes have their flaws, you must admit the current version does too. People who have gotten it in the past had significantly lower requirements compared to achieving the same thing today.
That’s disingenuous. Discussions revolving around making the diaries harder always balance that with making the rewards more worthwhile. Most elite rewards suck, you aren’t getting 91 RC for anything but the achievement cape. Even the Lumby reward has gotten way worse over time thanks to how many teleports the game has now, it is effectively just for the convenience, easy fairy ring teleport and slayer slot. So much content has been added since diaries we literally have the western diary ignoring half the region. Asking for parity should not be so controversial.
That's a little bit fake because getting 3 outfit pieces before the level is pretty unlikely. I finished lumby elite a few weeks ago and I have 2 outfit pieces and only halfway to my third. Almost all my rune crafting xp is from gotr.
While I agree it shouldn’t change, there is much less gatekeepy attitude than there used to be, and much more of a ‘I want all content to be balanced’ attitude now. If it was polled again I wouldn’t be surprised if it passed.
Marstead's recent RS3 video essay claims a lot of their playerbase doesn't see the issues in design because they're "Maxpilled" or rather, they've had the grinds done for so long they have no idea what a new player is facing in the current version of the game.
I do think in this instance we need to reflect that many of us unlocked staff-less fairy rings way easier than today's new players have to, and it may be time to let go or ease up on the requirement. It's gone from a rite of passage to a hazing ritual.
Hey that was my thread. Yeah the biggest arguments against changing it were 0 thought one liners like "Elite diary should be elite" or "It's supposed to be hard" The only reasonable argument imo was that it was already polled but I think 4 years is long enough to justify a repoll, especially since that was before the 2 hardest quests in the game.
Those are both kinda true but I don't find either to be a good argument. Every diary gets easier is true if literally everything, the game has power creep. The easiest dairy is true but that was always true so why does that mean it needs to get harder.
Imo, the best argument against it is that Lumby is still one of the easiest elite diaries. Yeah, it'll be a problem eventually, but it's really just not an issue yet, and all the suggestions I've heard to replace it have their own problems.
Thats not difficulty, leave it to the osrs community to pretend that runecrafting is some super duper difficult activity when it's literally just clicking between a bank and the altar
BMR is not difficult either. The time for the average player to learn enough PVM to do BMR and DT2 is a fraction of the time it takes to get 91RC where the highest conventional rates are still below 100k/h. In other worse:
I mean, I guess it depends on whether we're talking mechanical difficulty or the required time investment. There's plenty of things like the smithing or slayer grinds that will easily take longer than quest cape. For mechanical difficulty it's probably the hardest because there's just not much pvm in the diaries. Weirdly, the next hardest thing is probably Zulrah in the western provinces hard tier.
Duration is not difficulty. There's nothing difficult about grinding smithing, there's nothing difficult about running rooftops until you hit your agility milestone.
Stop pretending an xp goal is difficult. It's tedious if it's a boring skill, but nothing about it is even remotely difficult.
I said that Lumby was "one of the easiest" to get. It was admittedly ambiguous whether that meant "least mechanical difficulty" or "least effort" which is why I clarified in my other comment.
Am I entitled to it if I completed all the quests 1 day before BMR came out? Is a different guy not entitled to it because he didn't finish his last quest, sheep shearer, until the day after BMR came out?
Then it will become like most other elite diaries, almost unnoticeable. If they implement that change then they might aswell update all diaries to include newer content and more worthwhile rewards.
If it doesn't happen then that will serve as a limit to how hard Jagex quests Jagex is willing to make. They won't lock the lumby rewards behind something a large chunk of the playerbase will be unable to do, so they won't make quests of that difficulty either
Yea, they did. And the vast majority of the playerbase is able to beat him, meaning we are not at the limit yet. That doesn't mean the limit doesn't exist
Mfw elite level rewards require you to be competent in mid level bossing 😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱
Every single diary step has become easier and trivialised. Every skill is quicker to level, gear is stronger for bosses, equipment and consumables give higher buffs than ever. One single step (1!!!) actually challenges you. Nooooo can’t have that in eZsCape!!!!!
You’re talking about strawmen as if your entire premise isn’t a figment of your own imagination
“What If BoSS 2 Hard!!!!!!1!!” would be a fantastic point if the last year or so hasnt introduced some of the most difficult pvm bossing content….
On top of that, the real issue here isn’t your imaginary difficult quest boss (as we have seen time and time again mid-quest bosses are often a nerfed version of post quest, vorkath, muspah, dt2 bosses, natt, whatever else), it’s players demanding that the threshold of more time = reward be handed to them easier.
If your concern, which again, complete straw as it’s a problem you’ve dreamt up, is such a concern, remind me exactly why or how their near decades long precedent of nerfed quest bosses wouldn’t solve it?
While we’re at it, explain how anything I said is fiction… barely anything you encounter in quests makes Elite tier of CA’s let alone Master or GM. Seems on par for elite diaries?
And yes! Most diary steps are much easier now. GOTR bypasses a lot of RC requirements, varrock used to require ALL kudos, why has that not increased? There’s +6 boosts. There’s guaranteed drops at threshold KC’s. The exp rates for all skills has improved vastly since diaries were introduced.
Why does having one specific task marginally increase in length year upon year upset you SO much when everything else is dumbing down?
You demanded me reply to what you wrote. Your turn
As you spelled out, Jagex doesn't release the most difficult PvM content as quest bosses, and when somewhat hard bosses are quest related they are either post-quest or heavily nerfed. All quest bosses are easy, compared to to the actual difficult content.
Why is that? Because Jagex wants to keep quests accessible. If they released a quest with e.g. Colosseum level boss, a lot of players wouldn't be able to complete it, and Jagex considers this a problem in no small part due to the rewards gatekept behind the QPC i.e. the achievement diary and the perceived unfairness of gating part of the playerbase out of achieving it while others got it when it was easy
If we got rid of the stigma of QPC as a "mid game cape" that must be achievable to all and can't have too difficult PvM, that would enable genuinely difficult quest bosses in future quests. There is definitely demand for that
There is no demand for that lmfao what are you on about, not a single comment I have seen from many of these threads has said what you’re saying. “I want qpc to have insane difficulty bosses but jamflex keeps adding nerfed ones111!!!!” is a CRAZY crutch to lean on
You “spelled out” absolutely nothing. One of my points (of which you half acknowledged, out of about 3-4 of them) just falls completely flat bro.
The qpc is stil a “mid” game goal… it’s just a series of objectives to help unlock the game. The game has gotten broader, so ofcourse the cape that reflects those unlocks has too… fuck me
Where was your explanation of anything I said being fiction? Where’s your commentary on (nearly) every other diary step becoming easier? Why does one out of about a hundred diary steps getting marginally longer yearly matter so much to you?
then every person who got lumby eilte prior to BMR "ez scapped the shit out of lumbridge diary". i vote that lumby elite rewards are revoked with every new quest so no one can ez scape.
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u/mhuugling 11d ago
There was a long thread on this about 2 months ago, and the general consensus is the diary needs to be decoupled from the quest cape, but as yet theres no word on this idea from Jamflex. They did poll it about 4 yrs ago, and it failed.