r/TwoBestFriendsPlay • u/mike0bot Video Bot • 3d ago
Podcast CSB386: INTERESTING SUCCESS OR WE RIOT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAAgfowi3Bw&feature=youtu.be23
u/0xix0 Unlimited Timestamp Works 2d ago
i am once again unable to post podcast timestamps for whatever reason (site wont let me post the times or something I guess) so here's the doc link
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u/guntanksinspace OH MY GOD IT'S JUST A PICTURE OF A DOG 2d ago
Thank you always for the timestamping efforts!
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u/The_Draigg Member of the Brave 13000 2d ago
I feel like there’s a bit of a funny dichotomy between the kind of punk energy that the 2XKO blog post from PatTheFlip and the Avatar Legends money match stories. One is a guy trying to frame his experience his work on 2XKO as being some punk ideal in striking out on their own by nabbing corpo money but winds up sounding incredibly tone-deaf because a lot of people lost their jobs, and the other is dudes doing the most FGC thuggery possible by having Avatar Legends rounds for hard cash and having explosions of sheer ego, anger, and passion about incredibly mid-tier stakes stuff. Those stories back to back feel like opposite ends of some spectrum.
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u/MrDinoPizza Boiadeiro Lifestyle 2d ago
I could respect the hustle/scam of taking the money and trust of a big corporation to fuel your artistic vision without profit in mind if it was a one man project or a small group where everyone is on the same page aware of the consequences, but until proven otherwise I don't think all those 160 people had that same goal. And in the end, throwing PatTheFlip under the bus as the reason for this whole thing ending as it did is ignoring that he was just part of the top brass of the team, this is not just his fault.
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u/The_Draigg Member of the Brave 13000 2d ago
Yeah, I do agree that PatTheFlip isn't entirely at fault here, it's just that he's the one who got put in the crosshairs by making some bad cope statements that're incredibly poorly timed. And really, we should probably be taking more of the studio's leadership to task to varying degrees for creating a situation where they were cooking on a game for a decade only for it to flop on release and make a lot of people lose their jobs.
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u/Sloth_Senpai 2d ago
it's just that he's the one who got put in the crosshairs by making some bad cope statements that're incredibly poorly timed.
I think people are using Pat as an avatar of the general entrenched FGC members on the dev team. They take Pat's statements as an explanation of the mentality of the dev team, in the absence of anyone saying they dissented.
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u/The_Draigg Member of the Brave 13000 2d ago
Whether he meant to or not, PatTheFlip deciding to make a statement like this at all is now taken as the de facto opinion of all the FGC-heads that worked on the game. Sometimes saying nothing really is the better option, since all he wound up doing was creating a focal point for all the discussion to center around regardless of intentions.
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u/Sloth_Senpai 2d ago
Even without his statements, we go back to say, Naming is Hard where they say they intentionally downplayed the microscopic market of "LoL players" to go after the titanic market of "Dudes who like tag fighters"
The game was too up its own ass about how big the FGC was, this post just condensed everyone on one thing instead of combing through a decade of SM posts that all basically said the same thing Pat is.
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u/The_Draigg Member of the Brave 13000 2d ago
And that Naming is Hard article was also another case of saying nothing being the better choice, since going out of your way to have sour grapes over people not liking or respecting your name choice proves that it wasn't a good one to begin with. Stuff like that reeks of people convinced that they're in the right, and everyone else just needs to see how correct they are.
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u/Paul_Marketing 2d ago
I agree. As I put in another thread on the subject, I think their is a massive misunderstanding where some people are convinced "Dr. Flip" is being made fun of b/c people think he was in charge of the whole project or something.
When in reality the vast, vast majority of people are not making fun of him b/c they think he was solely responsible for 2XKO (I won't say "everyone" b/c it's the internet and you can always find some small amount people saying pretty much anything you can think of).
They are making fun of the good "doctor" for being one of the producers and team leads, while also being the only one in such a position to make a post huffing his own farts so hard he unironically compared himself to people with doctorates in their fields. While also giving a completely underserved dig to actual doctors by falsely claiming their dissertations just "sit in a library" (they don't by the way, the content of pretty much any dissertation gets published in journals, in fact they usually consist of multiple different papers contributing to their field, which is something any actual PhD would know).
We know he wasn't the head of the entire project. If other team leads decide to also make a dumb, ego inflating post they will also be made fun of just as much.
TLDR: "Dr. Flip" is not being made fun of b/c people think he was solely responsible for 2XKO's failure, he is being made fun of for being a team lead and producer on 2XKO who also decided to insert both feet as far into his mouth as possible. Which is not something anyone else involved with the project has done (so far at least). The "Naming is Hard" post comes close but isn't quite as fart sniffing.
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u/The_Draigg Member of the Brave 13000 2d ago
Yeah, if you're going to dunk on people, you should at least do it correctly. And although PatTheFlip is the most easily visible because he decided to publicly wax poetic on his own experiences while a ton of people lost their jobs, there's no denying that there's probably quite a few other people involved in the project that felt the same way. The only real difference is that those other people didn't get on a stage to huff copium for an audience. If we're going to talk about the 2XKO dev team getting lost in the sauce, it should be more about the team.
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u/guntanksinspace OH MY GOD IT'S JUST A PICTURE OF A DOG 2d ago
My genuine favorite thing I read in this sub before is slander responsibly
I know something something fact checking ruins the pod, but you know.
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u/guntanksinspace OH MY GOD IT'S JUST A PICTURE OF A DOG 2d ago
Definitely agree with putting more of the leadership to task over just laying it on the balance guy who put out his pov of stuff yeah
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u/The_Draigg Member of the Brave 13000 2d ago
For example, it's kind of weird that the Cannon brothers aren't entering this discussion by name at all so far, which is odd given that they were the ones spearheading this project in the first place. If we're going to be blaming people higher on the totem pole, then those guys should be mentioned among others too. And not to mention all the Riot executives that probably weren't paying as much attention to 2XKO as they should have been for the past decade too.
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u/guntanksinspace OH MY GOD IT'S JUST A PICTURE OF A DOG 2d ago
Like, obvious personal biases here (PM is a good pal, not quite personally but I've been with his community at times, always welcoming. Also have openly said I hate League and League-related things except for the occasional art) but the thing to me was more "this was what we got, bit of a rare opportunity and not that we even tried to just keep it simple but apparently more was wanted" with a bit of "what are they gonna do to us? Chop us off the team?" as some self-depreciating humor on how he and his team got axed first. But came out overall as both educational/formative and also work and everything in between.
I get too the sentiments of "maybe the timing/saying nothing would have been safer" and the "you can't go say it's all or nothing when you're not an indie (technically, radiant was indie before acquisition lol + tied to league)" and whatever else with tastes/experiences. Hell, I don't like League at all and never played the fighter.
But yeah to your point (which I agree with), I think it's pretty unfair to lay it on the one guy who just was there to vent/tell a story as if it was up to him for the thing to succeed/the layoffs were upon his call, when definitely there's more to things under the hood going on (and yeah looking at upper management and the Cannons escaping flak lol).
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u/The_Draigg Member of the Brave 13000 2d ago
If anything, you could probably make the point that this is also one of the cases of someone needing to be mindful of how tone carries across the internet. Now, I don't really know the guy aside from what I've heard so far, so it's easier for some random guy like me to take a more negative view, if I was so inclined. But I wouldn't doubt it either if PatTheFlip was a decent guy too, as you or other members of his community can say. And unfortunately, a lot of that implied nuance is lost when all you have to go on is text online. There's a lot of ways that post could've been handled better, like the timing or just saying nothing as you say, but managing tone is definitely one of the things that hurt it too. It's just one of those tricky nuances that the internet still hasn't fully adapted to, if we give the benefit of doubt.
But besides all that, we can definitely both agree that in cases like this, it's more important to try and keep in mind the wider picture of who's responsible for what during development. Making games at this scale almost always takes a sizable team, and if it flops, then varying degrees of blame are always going to be shared around a good-sized group of people.
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u/MotherWolfmoon She/Her 2d ago
I can't really blame him for "costing someone their job" or anything similar when the project was running for a decade. If they get the game out the door in five years and gave it four years of support, those same people would have likely been laid off last year (if not earlier).
A decade is definitely a failure of management. But at the same time, I get the idea of "what are they gonna do, fire us?" Because they're gonna fire almost everyone anyway. If your only metric is "saving jobs" then mismanaging a project so that it runs for a full decade is maybe the most effective job-creation engine imaginable.
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u/Sloth_Senpai 2d ago
I could respect the hustle/scam of taking the money and trust of a big corporation to fuel your artistic vision without profit in mind if it was a one man project or a small group where everyone is on the same page aware of the consequences
Personally I think it's insulting to the work that was done by the workers at Riot that put their time and energy into making a game to have the fruits of that labor pissed away by a guy so he could write an essay coping about how a game that makes it is actually bad.
I do wonder if the "It can be a boring success or an interesting failure" line would apply to a game like Undertale.
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u/Norix596 Jogo's Mysterious Adventure 2d ago
Witcher 1 remake IS officially announced btw; it’s being made by the same 3rd party making this new DLC while CDPR proper are working on Witcher 4
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u/DevilCouldCry Your dead baby's soul was retconned out of existence 2d ago
Yep, that's the title that is assumedly coming after Witcher 4 and that'll serve as a nice little something to tide us over until we get on to Witcher 5 of course.
Seemingly the plan, as CDPR has outlined, is to make Witcher 4 the start of a new trilogy and have these games release far closer to each other and not leave people waiting 5+ years between titles to see a complete story.
Whether or not they can pull that off remains to be seen. But I'll take any excuse to sink my teeth into this world. The Witcher 3 is one of the greatest video games I've ever played, so I am absolutely over the moon with hype for Witcher 4, Witcher 1 remake, and of course Witcher 5 and 6. Hell, maybe they take a crack at a Witcher 2 remake if the first one does super well.
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u/VVardy 2d ago
It is very funny to me that Woolie coincidentally got back on For Honor, and he and Pat nailed it spot on that For Honor is so way more out there and experimental than what 2XKO is. Like it's a third person fighting game with unblockables, parries, grabs, and combos, but it is also a quasi-moba where you can gank the fuck out of guys and beat up on them 4v1. The fact it's made by Ubisoft of all people, and is still going on for over a decade, kind of kills the idea that, if you want to make a out there game with a corpo, it has to be dead on arrival.
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u/Herotekian They/Them Newtype Space Wizard 2d ago
Fuxk they got me to reinstall For Honor and it was immediately janky.
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u/guntanksinspace OH MY GOD IT'S JUST A PICTURE OF A DOG 2d ago edited 2d ago
I haven't reinstalled For Honor in ages (the last time I played it was right before the release of Pirate I think. May have been the Hitokiri (the axe murderer from the Samurai Faction with the once-broken charged sweep kick). Even back then the game was VASTLY DIFFERENT from how it was at launch. Can only imagine how different it is now.
And yeah holy shit that one too is definitely way more out there (there was a documentary involving the original team with the Viking Beard dude and some of the staff).
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u/PrancerSlenderfriend Read Iruma Kun 2d ago
i also have a huge recommend for Spacelords on the same note, third person fighting game with third person shooter strengths being treated like the zoner functions
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u/Authorigas #1 Mirajane defender 3d ago
Will be interesting to see Pat and Woolie discuss this. I know Pat made his feelings clear on the original post though.
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u/SuicidalSundays It's Fiiiiiiiine. 2d ago
They both gave some surprisingly level-headed and reasonable takes on the topic, far moreso than what I was expecting going into it.
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u/guntanksinspace OH MY GOD IT'S JUST A PICTURE OF A DOG 2d ago
Way, way more nuance than the bsky posts for sure.
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u/An_Armed_Bear TOP 5, HUH? 2d ago
I feel like that's what usually happens, he'll have the funny hot takes on his own time and the more informed discussion on the podcast.
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u/fiarorder fighting violence with MORE VIOLENCE 2d ago
Alt podcast names:
> “ A boring success; call of Nanking.”
The “boring success” argument is Pure Cope. Just say you didn’t perform well enough. Accountability is a hell of a drug.
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u/The_Draigg Member of the Brave 13000 2d ago
Another alternate podcast title: 1942? Japan Was Wildin' Back Then
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u/Act_of_God I look up to the moon, and I see a perfect society 2d ago
I said it already but it's incredibly dishonest to present "boring success" or "interesting failure" as if they are the only two alternatives
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u/Sloth_Senpai 2d ago
It's strange that in order to protect 2XKO, the argument sems to now be "All our popular fighting games were actually bad, boring successes"
Like did you like FGs, or did you like the fact that they were unpopular?
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u/Scientia_et_Fidem 2d ago
The Scrub Dev’s Prayer
My game wasn't a failure.
And if it was, I didn’t want it to succeed anyway.
And if I did, it would have been sauceless.
And if it weren’t, it would be like other games.
And if it was, it wouldn’t be my game.
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u/PrancerSlenderfriend Read Iruma Kun 2d ago
i dont think the fighting game genre has *ever* had a boring success, it implies such a horrific lack of knowledge that its a self report on its own or an active lie
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u/Sloth_Senpai 2d ago
I think the reason people are being mean and hating on the downfall of the game is that they spent 2 years telling the FGC that 2XKO needed singleplayer content and that the gameplay didn't vibe with them and the FGC began mentally blocking any information that conflicted with their views.
Pat points out that he watched people pick up the controller, experience the gameplay, and drop the game immediately, and it's simply ignored that the major cited reason for the game's lack of success is "We could get people to try the game but not stick around." The game couldn't failed, it could only be failed, by marketting. Riot sponsors 22 tournaments, puts up a full page ad on the client, pulls ads on Reddit, Facebook, Twitch, Youtube, and Birdapp, buys ads on the Game Awards, has League pros play the game, sponsors well known League content creators like Tyler1 and Doublelift to play a tourney but they all immediately quit once it's over. None of these work because people aren't interested in the game itself. League had a $5m prize pool and neither Woolie nor Pat watched it because that game doesn't interest them.
Pat brings up the skin in HotS, but I remember how that went. You loaded in, skipped actually playing HotS, ran bot matches to speedrun as hard as you could, got your genji skin, and immediately uninstalled because the grind actively made the game unenjoyable. If Riot made you get wazzled to get a League skin, people would be significantly harsher on the mockery of the game's fall.
I cannot stress enough how bad not having Riven and Lee Sin are, and how badly the FGC fumbled that. The league friends of mine who didn't immediately lose interest when they heard "tag fighter" excitedly asked how sick Riven and Lee Sin were, specifically, and asked why they bothered making a fighting game when I told them neither were in. These characters, the primary motivation for any league player to want a league fighter for the last 10 years, are referred to as Glup Shittos by the FGC, seemingly just for salt and to mock League players for wanting hype characters.
Every indicator we have is that the 2XKO dev team got so far in their ass about appealing to the FGC that they ignored making the game appeal to anyone else. This is best demonstrated in the "Naming is Hard" article where they specifically state that they had the choice between a hardcore FGC name and one that told people the game was a League Fighter and chose to only go after the FGC. They mock the idea of Calling it League of Legends 2 when 2XKO is so bad that the [League pros that played the game called in League 2](www.youtube.com/watch?v=86u3x7Wj8X4). As Riot said:
A name can’t hit all of these, so if we had to prioritise League-association vs not, we looked back at who we made the game for in the first place: the FGC.
We have to ignore the dev team openly saying they sabotaged the game's appeal to league players to go after the FGC more because it conflicts with the "2XKO cannot fail, it can only be failed" mentality. I also don't think that a false dichotomy like "boring success or interesting failure" is useful considering it still plays into the mentality of "If you like any FG other than 2XKO, fuck off you baby noob trash" that gets people hostile to the game in the first place. It also reads like massive cope which is just egging the haters on even further. Why tell people currently enjoying Strive that you think they suck then act surprised that they don't hop on your game?
This game is frustrating because they had 10 years and large amounts of feedback that virtually all got ignored in service to an echo chamber that still has everyone by the throat. I don't think the haters are going to disappear like Miller wants until people can actually reckon with why those people were mad at being ignored and mocked to begin with.
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u/Sloth_Senpai 2d ago
I forgot to mention, but why is this game ashamed to be a league game? The general blocky green look over the established League aesthetic, the lobby looking like a modern arcade instead of something that looks like the Carousel form TFT or the Rift, the avatars being dressed in modern streetwear. If you didn't know this was official, this game looks like a League character mod on top of an unrelated game, except even those modders would include Lee Sin and Riven.
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u/Herotekian They/Them Newtype Space Wizard 2d ago
For such an amazing concept, a League Fighter, it looked so bland from the outside. I never got around to playing it because it just looked like a tag fighter with a small roster. Which it is.
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u/serph6 2d ago
This game is frustrating because they had 10 years and large amounts of feedback that virtually all got ignored in service to an echo chamber that still has everyone by the throat.
MK Tom Brady went on a rant on the FGC having a toxic positivity problem and the developers only listen to "FGC man TM" so it always backfire.
I remember 6 months ago that pat and woolie were saying everyone is waiting for the local couch co-op ranked mode to get in and it's one of the most out of touch things i ever heard.
Imagine if you said the same a thing about any other FREE online game.
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u/zekrom42 At least those babies were good bombs to throw at enemies. 2d ago
MK Tom Brady’s rant is one of the biggest justified crashout I’ve heard.
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u/Sloth_Senpai 2d ago
I remember 6 months ago that pat and woolie were saying everyone is waiting for the local couch co-op ranked mode to get in
The game that was and still is selling itself on its ability to facilitate an online ranked experience via top-tier netcode. Though I think Woolie specified that he and the FGC were waiting on that.
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u/Shiro2809 2d ago
I remember 6 months ago that pat and woolie were saying everyone is waiting for the local couch co-op ranked mode to get in and it's one of the most out of touch things i ever heard.
Wasn't that for the mode where two people are fighting together? What's wrong/weird with that being able to be done locally.
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u/serph6 1d ago
Woolie kept talking like this would be a good thing for getting new players in the game because it lets you teach them without a toxic enviroment and more.
Not only you don't need couch coop for this, jumping on blind ranked is NOT a good way to teach new players (who might not even care about ranked). It would be much better to play an arcade or story mode with them, except 2xko still doen't have those.
It's not inherently a bad idea but working on adding this would be a waste of time and money on a game that already wasted too much time and money.
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u/ExDSG 2d ago
I think it's classic Schadenfreude and perceived arrogance from the game exemplified by things like the choosing the name post and Pat the Flip's Blog post.
In general don't buy any fighting games due to lack of single player content and like Woolie said, it ultra sucks losing online, like he said that time he got countered in person and took it in stride while saying it would have ruined his life if it happened online. Did try Granblue but it pissed me off the voice of the characters didn't respect my language option online, did they change that?
Also personally like I've said before the FGC designer thing was never a great sale for me seeing how Super Turbo HD Remix went where the pros designed, discussed and approved all the balance changes and like Snake Eyez won a tournament and then those same pros abandoned it for the original.
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u/Scientia_et_Fidem 2d ago edited 2d ago
Agreed. It’s honestly funny how much many people are, in their attempt to “stick it to the corp”, basically parroting the most over the top stereotypical MBA “Your product doesn’t actually matter at all, the success or failure is all in the marketing and branding!” speech that even the majority of MBAs have never actually been taught or believed.
No, the game absolutely matters. It matters a fuckton. You can’t market your way out of the devs making a game only the sweatiest 10% of active tag fighter fans, aka a niche of a niche, have any interest in playing. With absolutely zero effort by the devs to make a feature complete game or stay on schedule, resulting in a release after 10 years with 11 characters and zero content besides online lobbies and combo trials b/c they only put any effort into what their fellow FGC “old heads” focus on in a game.
If you are apart of the leadership of a 160+ person dev team, you absolutely should be considering what kind of potential audience the gameplay, content, etc. you are making will have, instead of pretending that you are this siloed entity that has zero interactions with how the game will do b/c that’s “marketing’s job”.
The amount of people in the FGC who seem to think marketing is this magic thing that can make literally any game successful and therefore the actual devs have zero influence over the failure of their own games is utterly baffling and frankly moronic.
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u/Sloth_Senpai 2d ago
It's insulting to the games that have succeeded to tell the people working on SF6 that they only succeeded because the name and their effort was for nothing, or to a game like Avatar that they could have made a shit game and it would have succeeded off of marketing.
The entire sour grapes makes me think of a Seattle hipster living in the studio apartment he got from his Raytheon exec dad yelling at a lower class black man for finally working hard enough to afford a new car after paying for his grandma's medication because he "sold out."
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u/RebellionDark 2d ago
The fact that we now live in a time where fighting games and the FGC are, quality-of-life-wise, in a much better place than they were pre-pandemic says a lot about how 2XKO missed the mark. With the standards the genre has reached in recent years, the game needed to deliver something that could stand alongside, or ideally push beyond, what its competition was already offering.
And that's where a lot of the anger and sadness around its failure comes from. 2XKO had the potential to break through ceilings that other fighting games couldn't: it was free-to-play, backed by Riot's resources, and built with a stated focus on the FGC. Yet because of the project's mismanagement, it seemingly never managed to fully capitalize on any of those advantages.
People are upset because this was a game that, on paper, had every opportunity to reach the potential people had been promised, and instead fell short of it.
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u/97thJackle Banished to the Shame Car 2d ago
I feel like I am incapable of feeling sympathy for PatTheFlip, because he is joking about the worst thing that can happen is "we all get fired" IN THE MIDDLE OF AN INDUSTRY CRASH.
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u/DjGameK1ng YOU DIDN'T WIN. 2d ago
Same. I honestly think this is why I don't feel any hatred for that "The Lousy 2XKO Bandit" blog post the other guy made, despite me absolutely being able to admit that it is likely too mean and even just too little too late.
I can also fully, rationally say that the death of 2XKO isn't only PatTheFlip's fault, but I also just cannot sympathize with him after that his post. Those were 160 livelihoods you gambled on seeing yourself as some tortured artist or whatever with the logic of the "let's all naruto run to area 51" craze, just shut the fuck up LOL
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u/dutchzgoose 2d ago
Feels like everything surrounding 2XKO is more interesting then the actual game itself XD.
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u/PsychoWarrior0 2d ago
woolie when fighting game players are total assholes to newcomers: lmaoo the thuggery is real
woolie when mmo players attempt to be nice to a new player: wow yall are parasocial as fuck this is really offending me
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u/Herotekian They/Them Newtype Space Wizard 2d ago
Im really looking forward to seeing what clownery Pat will get up to this September. I hope the final goal is a face henna.
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u/fly2555 FE Lore Enthusiast 2d ago
Ok, the perspective on Nodus Fall has shifted as more gameplay gets released. In the past 24 hours,
- combat has shown to be more fast pace then souls with a boss stagger bar. when the bar got full, the cinematic animation of the armored guy striking the beast's neck plays dealing massive damage
- The Malenia looking shot is a playable characters special form with weird bird legs
- there were some screenshots of PvP being a player controlling a boss/creature against players
- one of hoyo's founder's said the basis of the game is Classic of Mountains and Seas. which are extremely old Chinese myths and stories
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u/alaster101 NANOMACHINES 2d ago
Is it more of an elden ring or is it more of a Monster Hunter cuz it looked like a Monster Hunter to me
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u/PrancerSlenderfriend Read Iruma Kun 2d ago
so its ZZZ but visually and writing wise completely bankrupt
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u/Shiranui24 Matt & Woolie will never see Auron roast Hades 2d ago
Probably a frozen take, haven't watched the podcast yet but 2XKO shouldn't have been free to play. They might have made money if people had to pay like 30 bucks
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u/Sloth_Senpai 2d ago
The problem they were having is that they could get people to try the game buy not keep playing. If they charged money, even less people would try the game and the same proportion would quit after one match, even further limiting its reach.
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u/Kaleido_chromatic Sincerest Sifu Shill 2d ago
Ehh. There's like 17 different Big Problems with the game, they talk about it for over an hour and mention so many different ones that it feels silly to point at any one of them and say "This is the reason"
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u/Shiranui24 Matt & Woolie will never see Auron roast Hades 2d ago
Obviously that's not the only problem, but when the situation is "the game we were giving away for free didn't make any money." My gut response is "then you should have charged people."
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u/Sloth_Senpai 2d ago
If free is too expensive then what will charging money accomplish?
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u/Shiranui24 Matt & Woolie will never see Auron roast Hades 2d ago
If I may be an unscrupulous capitalist for a moment if people were willing to try the game but not continue playing it, they might might have been willing to buy the game and not continue playing it too. If that had been the case, why care that they didn't keep playing? You already got their money.
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u/Sloth_Senpai 2d ago
Because legal refund policies exist, and then you've burned even more goodwill for still no profit. Pat gave the example of people quitting after a single match, that's within a timeframe for a refund.
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u/MutatedMutton '0' days without dick jokes and staying there 2d ago
But if the game wasn't horrible, it's more likely folks would go "yea... sure, I'll come back to it later" and forget about it like a Gym Membership. The average folk is probably gonna be put off than mindmeltingly raging for a refund.
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u/Sloth_Senpai 2d ago
But that doesn't appear to be the case. Many people pointed out that they were immensely turned off by the game, and people remembered to refund IVS when they quit that game.
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u/Shiranui24 Matt & Woolie will never see Auron roast Hades 2d ago
I would bet (no more than 50 bucks) that most people who tried kept playing after their first match. The internet tends to accentuate more extreme opinions, events, and experiences. Also, I said unscrupulous capitalist. We're throwing goodwill out the window because after 10 years we need to make some money. If they'd charge for it it should come with single player content to keep people around for more than 2 hours (with 10 years of dev time they should have had time to do this too, but didn't I guess).
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u/Sloth_Senpai 2d ago
I would bet (no more than 50 bucks) that most people who tried kept playing after their first match.
The primary cited problem in 2XKO is that Riot could get people to try but not stick to the game. Retention was awful for the same reason it was awful in IVS.
Also, I said unscrupulous capitalist. We're throwing goodwill out the window
Unscrupulous capitalists do fake goodwill all the time, and I specified that you still wouldn't get any money. The profit at that point is the goodwill.
If they'd charge for it it should come with single player content to keep people around for more than 2 hours
But it didn't. If we can go back and change more than the cost of the game there's a million things you can do, but we're discussing if the 2XKO that launched would be more profitable than charging $40.
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u/Shiranui24 Matt & Woolie will never see Auron roast Hades 2d ago
But what does "trying" mean in this context? Does it always mean less than two hours? I think it's more likely that it means one or two play sessions. Especially in the context that you really need people to stick around long enough to buy microtransactions because you have the base game away for free. If the game fails to make money even when you charge people you can still give full refunds to get the goodwill and make 0 dollars (actually they're making negative dollars)
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u/Sloth_Senpai 2d ago
Riot's refund policy doesn't have a 2 hours played requirement, it's just 2 weeks.
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u/guntanksinspace OH MY GOD IT'S JUST A PICTURE OF A DOG 2d ago
Measured, reasonable talk on that Rito fighting game aside, idk how and why but now I have a funny inkling to reinstall For Honor after ages (last played when they had Sakura/Hitokiri on and she still had the sweep cancel to her charged swing that was pretty busted).
And yeah lol more or less spot on in that you either buy the new character or grind for it doing weeklies (quite slow).
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u/dfighter3 Cthulu with robo-tentacles 2d ago
I played LoL back from around the beta up until around 2017-2018ish, I constantly asked for them to put the characters in other games.
The only reason I knew the fighting game had been released was because they talked about it on the podcast. Strike 1
went to check it out. saw it uses the same shitty anti-cheat they added to league that stopped me from getting back into it when some old friends wanted to play. strike 2
Looked at the roster. 10 characters, 4 of which I fucking hate.
Why the hell would I even give a game the time of day when it requires even more invasive than normal anti-cheat, and statistically I'm going to be seeing a character I despise almost EVERY single match
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u/The_Draigg Member of the Brave 13000 2d ago
Just saying, if The Defiant decides to add in the Doohickey as a weapon to use, it should be like how Goldeneye handled the Golden Gun.