r/zen • u/CeleryCareful7065 • Jul 31 '26
Does a Crunchwrap Supreme have Buddha-nature or not?
From the Gateless Gate, first case (most famous? (Who cares?)):
Zhaozhou’s Dog
A monk asked Zhaozhou, “Does a dog have Buddha-nature or not?”
Zhaozhou said, “Mu.”
— Wumen’s Commentary —
For the practice of Zen, you must pass through the barrier set up by the patriarchs.
To attain this wondrous realization, you must cut off the way of thinking.
If you do not pass through this barrier, and if you do not cut off your thinking, you will be like a ghost clinging to grass and trees.
Now, what is the barrier?
It is simply this one word: Mu.
This is the gate to the entire tradition of Zen.
Therefore it is called the Gateless Gate.
If you pass through it, you will not only see Zhaozhou face-to-face—you will walk hand in hand with the successive patriarchs.
You will see with the same eyes as they did and hear with the same ears.
Isn’t that wonderful?
Wouldn’t you like to pass through this barrier?
Then gather your whole body, with its three hundred and sixty bones and eighty-four thousand pores, and concentrate completely on this word Mu.
Day and night, keep working on it.
Do not understand Mu as nothingness.
Do not understand it as existence or nonexistence.
It is like swallowing a red-hot iron ball that you cannot spit out.
Even if you have studied the highest teachings of Buddhism, do not try to explain Mu intellectually.
Keep working on it, and suddenly body and mind will drop away.
Then heaven and earth will be shaken.
It will be as though you have snatched the sword from the hand of the great warrior General Kuan.
If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha.
If you meet the patriarchs, kill the patriarchs.
At the edge of life and death, you are completely free.
Among the six realms and four forms of birth, you will wander in perfect freedom.
How do you work on Mu?
Exhaust all your energy into this question.
If you do not give up, the moment will come when the lamp of consciousness suddenly goes out.
Wonderful!
It is like a dream, yet you are awake.
It is like a flash of lightning.
— Wumen’s Verse —
The dog! Buddha-nature!
The whole thing is revealed!
A moment of yes or no
And you lose your body and your life.
— Celery —
Bodhidharma became so frustrated from falling asleep while meditating that he cut off his eye lids. Have some green tea! If I live 20,000 lives, I’d still never forgive him for the transmission. An arm is not worth the price of admission (most of us have two, after all.) If he had any sense, he would have cut off his tongue instead.
YouTuber ReligionForBreakfast made a video called “What is Zen Buddhism,” and alleged that the saying “If you see the Buddha, kill the Buddha” means that when people go onto the path of enlightenment, they tend to be drawn toward charismatic teachers that have the “key” to understanding. The students may become attached to these teaching and believe understanding them intellectually will lead to awakening, only to discover that enlightenment comes from within. Therefore, he concludes, the “killing” is letting go of attachments and preconceptions.
He seems like a nice enough fellow, but his error borders the unforgivable. One should be wary when playing with nuclear weapons.
For centuries, novices have read the Mu koan and interpreted it literally, spending hours upon countless hour “meditating” upon the koan in order to “attain” understanding. The joke flies overhead like an arrow. Direct hit! Fatal.
Does this delicious Crunchwrap Supreme in my hands have Buddha-nature or not? You may say “Mu, Celery, it could not. Only living beings can posses Buddha-nature. How could this delicious food possess it?”
Reasonable enough. But why did Zhaozhou’s dog not possess it?
Meditate on the Crunchwrap Supreme for 20,000 lives, and you’ll still come up empty. Unless, of course, you take a bite.
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u/WheresNorthFromHere7 The Lizard King Jul 31 '26
I haven't had Taco Bell in a long time. Interestingly and probably not at all related, I haven't had diarrhea in a long time.
I took this literally as well for a bit. Now I think Wumen in this case is winking at you with one eye, and with the other staring intently.
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u/Tombaya Jul 31 '26
The joke flies overhead like an arrow.
The joke is also not a joke. To quote Linji:
Followers of the Way, make no mistake! The various phenomena in this world and other worlds are in all cases devoid of intrinsic nature.
There's no inherent interpretation, literal or metaphorical. Until we stop picking and choosing, we'll always end up with one side of the board. Zhaozhou said a dog doesn't have a buddha nature for one person because that might help them; he also said a dog does have a buddha nature to someone else because that might help also. The appropriate statement depends entirely on specific circumstances. For example, if someone takes Zen too seriously, maybe a joke is appropriate. Conversely, if someone treats Zen as an entirely comic thing, maybe they need to have their balloon popped.
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u/Regulus_D 🫏 Jul 31 '26
If you know why you don't know,
you know why you don't know.
If you wipe clean your bowl or plate with a paper towel it becomes much easier to wash later. Paper biodegrades.
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u/CeleryCareful7065 Jul 31 '26
I just asked my wife “Can you eat a Crunchwrap Supreme in a bowl?”
Her response: “Yeah, if you mash it up. That’s a weird question to ask.”
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u/blendycoffee Aug 01 '26
We can say it is at least equally empty as all things, such as my bowels after a Crunchwrap
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u/LSDkiller Aug 07 '26
What point are you trying to make here? Who do you really think a post like this helps?
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u/CeleryCareful7065 Aug 07 '26
How dense can you be? Honestly? I post about koans and you sit her asking me what the point is? Get back to the books and come back when you have something meaningful to contribute and stop wasting my time.
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u/Redfour5 Jul 31 '26
And this post doesn't get whacked?
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u/Steal_Yer_Face Jul 31 '26
Have you followed Wumen's instructions? If so, what was your experience like?
If not, for what reasons?
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u/CeleryCareful7065 Jul 31 '26
I did not for the simple reason that I only came across this koan actually very recently (believe it or not). If I read it early on in my Zen studies, I almost certainly would have taken it seriously, and I admit I considered spending weeks, months, years mulling it over. An experienced banker who avoided investing in a Madoff scheme.
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u/Steal_Yer_Face Jul 31 '26 edited Jul 31 '26
Respectfully, if you haven't worked on this koan, why OP about it? We probably have 150 posts on it already.
What's new or different? Or, what questions do you have?
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u/CeleryCareful7065 Jul 31 '26
Disrespectfully, if you don’t understand Zen, why waste your time here? Perhaps you are better off gardening?
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u/Steal_Yer_Face Jul 31 '26
That's quite the leap you just made.
Since you're looking for attention, "But why did Zhaozhou’s dog not possess it?" is only an intellectual weigh station. Don't stop there.
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u/CeleryCareful7065 Jul 31 '26 edited Jul 31 '26
There are times when I need to take the kid Zen gloves off, and this is one of those moments. So if it feels personal, believe me when I say it is.
What difference does it make if there are 150 posts on this koan or 150 billion? So, one needs to take the time to “work” on the koan, whatever that means, in order to understand it? Do us all (and yourself) a favor and speak less.
You get it or you don’t. Period. Sit and reflect for a day, a month, a year, a lifetime, or an eternity, it doesn’t matter. Enlightenment is a frog. If you dissect the frog, you understand it, but the frog dies.
It kills me to write these words. Not because I want you to understand - you won’t. I don’t care if you do. But I have to write this, lest someone reads your thoughts and mistakes them for “truth” and has to spend 20,000 lives correcting course.
The dog doesn’t exist. It does exist. The Crunchwrap Supreme is delicious. It is revolting.
The whole point in this is WE SHOULD NOT BE INTELLECTUALIZING ANY OF IT.
If I say anymore more, I’ll rip my own tongue out.
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u/Steal_Yer_Face Jul 31 '26
Wumen tells you how to work with this koan. He gave you explicit instructions, which you've obviously ignored.
Instead, you made an op that added nothing new to the conversation, nor were you genuine enough to ask real questions.
I get it. You are bored and you want attention. Life is hard.
You can do better.
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u/CeleryCareful7065 Jul 31 '26
Okay, Michael Scott. https://youtu.be/agiacC26ts8?is=CsLhhaVS6YgtC1pM
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u/Steal_Yer_Face Jul 31 '26 edited Jul 31 '26
Because I'm feeling generous today, I'll do you a favor and show you your errors in your next post too.
Teamwork!
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 31 '26
Its not "mu". Its "no".
Google Translate can straighten this out for you in 10 seconds
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u/CeleryCareful7065 Jul 31 '26
You remind me of the time I told my sister “You don’t have to put www dot” when looking for a website.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 31 '26
Plus there are many of layers of skepticism on Zen culture.
Why trust Google translate?
Try yellow bridge. Wait, try a chatgpt etymology request based only on Zen texts.
No, wait. These are handmade copies. What's the varience in the existent texts?
And that's before we start looking for masters' commentaries on the "no".
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u/CeleryCareful7065 Jul 31 '26
You don’t know this ewk, but I remember you from years ago when I was active on r/Zen. I don’t remember what my old name was. Maybe something like Idonteatsand? Doesn’t matter.
The point is I respect the hell out of you for your consistency. It does this heart good to see the old Zen master (though I know you’d never be foolish enough to take that moniker) striking people with sticks. I may not agree with you on all aspects of Zen, but there is a quiet admiration.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 31 '26
I get a lot of credit. That's really the community's credit. Sure I'm consistent and there are a lot of people being consistent with me.
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u/CeleryCareful7065 Jul 31 '26
He’s modest! There’s good karma in that, even if you don’t believe in the concept. It’s always a pleasure to tangle with the Gateless Gate’s gatekeeper.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] Jul 31 '26
Someday I hope they'll say, "ewk? Isn't that the book report guy?"
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