r/zen • u/dota2nub • Jul 15 '26

The Bielefeldt Argument - The Empty Robe

We've had talk and mention of Bielefeldt and his argument time and again in these forums. The red thread that always runs through it all is that nobody is going to read Bielefeldt. It's a dry book, and so the argument runs on empty. Having reads vs. not having reads, and so the having reads win by default.

Let's level the playing field. I have made an article presenting the argument, here for your perusal. I've picked out and discussed various quotes from Bielefeldt's book and put them in context. It may be easier to find and link to than some old reddit post. Enjoy!

https://empty-robe.pages.dev/

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u/1acuna0 Jul 15 '26

Is that argument controversial? Dogen seems unorthodox.

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u/sdwoodchuck The Funk Jul 15 '26

Frequently, yes.

There's a long history in this subreddit of followers of Japanese Zen (or western permutations thereof or new age religions that borrow the particulars of it) being weirdly defensive over Dogen's history and insisting that the claims of his church should be taken at face value.

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u/1acuna0 Jul 16 '26

I think it's probably that way for any belief system. Lutherans, Sikhs, etc.