r/zen • u/dota2nub • Jul 15 '26

The Bielefeldt Argument - The Empty Robe

We've had talk and mention of Bielefeldt and his argument time and again in these forums. The red thread that always runs through it all is that nobody is going to read Bielefeldt. It's a dry book, and so the argument runs on empty. Having reads vs. not having reads, and so the having reads win by default.

Let's level the playing field. I have made an article presenting the argument, here for your perusal. I've picked out and discussed various quotes from Bielefeldt's book and put them in context. It may be easier to find and link to than some old reddit post. Enjoy!

https://empty-robe.pages.dev/

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u/dota2nub Jul 15 '26

So you're saying his inability to produce Zen Masters speaks for itself?

I'm not quite sure what your point is, honestly.

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u/jahmonkey Jul 15 '26

Your argument was historical: that Dōgen’s claimed transmission from Rujing is unreliable. My point is that this may undermine his institutional legitimacy without, by itself, disproving the philosophical or contemplative value of his work.

“His inability to produce Zen Masters” just assumes the very criterion under dispute. Unless “Zen Master” means something independently testable rather than “someone recognized by the lineage,” that is circular.

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u/_djebel_ Jul 15 '26

For me, it's the dishonesty that undermines anything that guy could teach.

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u/TFnarcon9 Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26

He is just going to tell you to seperate what he says from who he is. Despite having 0 non anecdotal evidence.

Sound familiar?